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Emperors Faithful wrote:

Gailbraithe wrote:Taoism is another example. Taoism teaches that god is at best a weak metaphor for something that can not be comprehended by the mind, the tao, and that any attempt to describe the tao will always fail due to the inability to express an infinity of possibility in words. So Taoists are also atheists.

I agree with you on the Buddhism score, but how does this description make Taoists atheists? At best it makes them agnostics, they believe that God is simply beyond comprehension or description. They don't claim that it doesn't exist, just that any attempt to describe or classify it doesn't do the being justice.

The Tao is not God by another name. If you believe that the Tao is God by another name, then you have not understood the Tao.

Either that, or you are using a definition of God that has nothing to do with theism. Because the object of theism is not the Tao.

Gailbraithe wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Gailbraithe wrote:Taoism is another example. Taoism teaches that god is at best a weak metaphor for something that can not be comprehended by the mind, the tao, and that any attempt to describe the tao will always fail due to the inability to express an infinity of possibility in words. So Taoists are also atheists.

I agree with you on the Buddhism score, but how does this description make Taoists atheists? At best it makes them agnostics, they believe that God is simply beyond comprehension or description. They don't claim that it doesn't exist, just that any attempt to describe or classify it doesn't do the being justice.

The Tao is not God by another name. If you believe that the Tao is God by another name, then you have not understood the Tao.

Either that, or you are using a definition of God that has nothing to do with theism. Because the object of theism is not the Tao.

I wasn't saying that Tao are theists, or that they call God by another name. But by your very own definition they are not athesists as they have not discredited the possibilty of a supernatural being's existance.

rubiksnoob wrote:You keep attacking theism and saying how ridiculous and preposterous it is, but there are different types of theism, depending on the varying definitions of god that are out there.

Well aware of that fact.

You seem to be criticizing monotheism and polytheism, especially the Judeo-Christian concept of a monotheistic creator god.

I've been criticizing every possible form of theism, and if you go back and read what I've written, I think you'll find my criticism is mostly directed at modern theism and the modern concept of God -- a concept of God that is vague, indeterminate, and ultimately rather pointless. But mostly I simply take issue with the ridiculous arguments used by theists.

There isn't a single argument that AF, for example, has presented in favor of God that challenges my contention that God is a girl named Eris. Which I think raises a real question as to what the heck theists are getting at, and what it means to say that "God exists."


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Emperors Faithful wrote:I wasn't saying that Tao are theists, or that they call God by another name. But by your very own definition they are not athesists as they have not discredited the possibilty of a supernatural being's existance.

If Taoists are not theists, then they are atheists. Atheism is the default, not theism.

Gailbraithe wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I wasn't saying that Tao are theists, or that they call God by another name. But by your very own definition they are not athesists as they have not discredited the possibilty of a supernatural being's existance.

If Taoists are not theists, then they are atheists. Atheism is the default, not theism.

Doesn't that make them Agnostic? How is Atheism the defualt? Atheism means you have to decide that there is NO God, which is not really what Taoism does.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Gailbraithe wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I wasn't saying that Tao are theists, or that they call God by another name. But by your very own definition they are not athesists as they have not discredited the possibilty of a supernatural being's existance.

If Taoists are not theists, then they are atheists. Atheism is the default, not theism.

Doesn't that make them Agnostic? How is Atheism the defualt? Atheism means you have to decide that there is NO God, which is not really what Taoism does.

No, that is not what atheism means. Atheism means you do not believe in god. Agnosticism is the belief that the answer to the question of God's existence is unknowable. One can be both agnostic and atheistic, that is one can not believe in God and that the question of God's existence is unanswerable.

Strong atheism, or antitheism, is the proposition that God does not exist. Since one cannot prove a negative, strong atheism hinges on the argument that the complete absence of any compelling reason to believe in god is sufficient reason to assert god's non-existence.

As I have noted already in this thread, no one seriously argues this point when you replace God with Spider-Man, which indicates that God is subject to special pleading.

The complete absence of any compelling reason to believe in the literal existence of God is sufficient reason to assert God's non-existence.
The complete absence of any compelling reason to believe in the literal existence of Spider-Man is sufficient reason to assert Spider-Man's non-existence.

The form the special pleading takes is always this: God has special properties that give sufficient reason to assume God's existence despite the lack of any compelling evidence for the literal existence of God.

The argument tends to become circular because the only special property that God appears to have is that God is God.

Agnosticism is also the uncertainty of the existence of God/s

A willingness to accept that one day it may be proven either way, and to reserve judgement is agnosticism.

Edit: Rephrased slightly to remove the word belief.

It's always amusing to realize what book someone just finished reading when they rush to the internetz to spout off about it.

del'Vhar wrote:Agnosticism is also the uncertainty of the existence of God/s

A willingness to accept that one day it may be proven either way, and to reserve judgement is agnosticism.

It would seem to me that agnosticism would be the most reasonable default position.

There's a non-zero chance that anything could happen at any time.

Monster Rain wrote:It's always amusing to realize what book someone just finished reading when they rush to the internetz to spout off about it.

Who are you talking about, and what is the book?

Or was this just one of those seemingly intelligent but actually entirely vapid statements that pseudointellectuals spout off to try to pass themselves off as thinking people?

Taoism is not a religion!
Its a way of life!
Ying and Yang is a way of life!
Atheism is not the freaking default button!
You just believe in other things sometimes. Some people just believe in weird crap. Like the devil O.o

Taoism and Confucianism are not religions. It is a common misinterpretation I understand that. Because it seems so similar. BUT! It has no god or belief in a higher being!

Religion must have faith in order to be a religion. Look it up. Faith = Religion

Agnosticism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive.

Generally speaking Agnosticism is really just the view that the truth is unknown. Atheism is rejection of the belief that there is a god.

I would subscribe to the view that the truth is unknown. There might be a god or there might not.

But at the same time, I firmly believe that there is not a god, because I find the notion mind bogglingly improbable. I also do not believe that the world will end before you have time to finish reading this post, because that is also mind bogglingly improbable. But believing is not the same as knowing.

I would consider myself both Agnostic and Atheist. And if you've got this far then I guess I was right about the world not ending. I would bet my immortal soul that I'm right about god too.

Asherian Command wrote:Atheism is not the freaking default button!

All babies are atheists.

Gailbraithe wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Atheism is not the freaking default button!

All babies are atheists.

They are born into this world they are not believers in anything. As they have no thought or knowledge. In order to be considered a member you have to have knowledge and faith.
Babies are not atheists. They believe they are god.
Thats just my experience.
Plus why did you ignore all what I said when i had a legitimate Reason That Taoism = NOT A RELIGION!

The world ending at any time isn't really all that improbable.

Read up on Plasma Storms sometime.

Also, babies are born Republicans.

Gailbraithe wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Atheism is not the freaking default button!

All babies are atheists.

Prove it

I disagree anyway, babies likely do not have any beliefs whatsoever, so while they do not believe God/s exists, they also do not believe s/he/they don't exist.

Monster Rain wrote:

Also, babies are born Republicans.

I thought they were born into Independent parties? What has the world come to? *glances at Justin bieber, Looks in complete terror. Pulls out a shotgun. Fires it at Justin biebers poster.* "That will teach that damn wipper snapper."

Consider
Babies come into the world screaming to suck pap and mewl and puke

Now consider Monster Rain's statement.

not sure what any of this has to do with the quiz

Babies can't be Christians until they have been baptised and so must ipso facto be atheists. and therefore better at answering religious quizzes than their Christian parents.
Is that the point?

Gailbraithe wrote:
No, that is not what atheism means. Atheism means you do not believe in god. Agnosticism is the belief that the answer to the question of God's existence is unknowable. One can be both agnostic and atheistic, that is one can not believe in God and that the question of God's existence is unanswerable.

Strong atheism, or antitheism, is the proposition that God does not exist. Since one cannot prove a negative, strong atheism hinges on the argument that the complete absence of any compelling reason to believe in god is sufficient reason to assert god's non-existence.

Okay, even if I was to assume that you're right, how does this make Taoists atheists?

As I have noted already in this thread, no one seriously argues this point when you replace God with Spider-Man, which indicates that God is subject to special pleading.

The complete absence of any compelling reason to believe in the literal existence of God is sufficient reason to assert God's non-existence.
The complete absence of any compelling reason to believe in the literal existence of Spider-Man is sufficient reason to assert Spider-Man's non-existence.

The form the special pleading takes is always this: God has special properties that give sufficient reason to assume God's existence despite the lack of any compelling evidence for the literal existence of God.

The argument tends to become circular because the only special property that God appears to have is that God is God.

We have means to prove the nonexistence of Spiderman. Or his actual existence. As far as I know no such method can be applied to the existence of God.

Gailbraithe wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Atheism is not the freaking default button!

All babies are atheists.

Well, according to you babies aren't people until 18 months of age so how does that work?

how does this make Taoists atheists?

Taoists don't believe in god(s)

Asherian Command wrote:

Gailbraithe wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Atheism is not the freaking default button!

All babies are atheists.

They are born into this world they are not believers in anything. As they have no thought or knowledge. In order to be considered a member you have to have knowledge and faith.
Babies are not atheists. They believe they are god.
Thats just my experience.

Contradict yourself much?

Plus why did you ignore all what I said when i had a legitimate Reason That Taoism = NOT A RELIGION!

Because it wasn't relevant to anything anyone has said in this entire conversation.

Gailbraithe wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Gailbraithe wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Atheism is not the freaking default button!

All babies are atheists.

They are born into this world they are not believers in anything. As they have no thought or knowledge. In order to be considered a member you have to have knowledge and faith.
Babies are not atheists. They believe they are god.
Thats just my experience.

Contradict yourself much?

Plus why did you ignore all what I said when i had a legitimate Reason That Taoism = NOT A RELIGION!

Because it wasn't relevant to anything anyone has said in this entire conversation.

Oh yeah

Maybe babies are religious... People who are left to their own devices always seem to end up inventing gods. I don't think anyone ever discovered a lost tribe who said "gods? dang we never thought of having those"

Atheism is probably something that comes later after you've gone a long time without witnessing anything supernatural.

I think it is possible that religion is instinctive... or at least a side effect of something instinctive... or maybe just a really unoriginal idea. Maybe that is why so many people cling to religion so fervently.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Okay, even if I was to assume that you're right, how does this make Taoists atheists?

Don't assume I'm right, go look it up. There's these great things called encyclopedias, they have all kinds of useful information in them.

As Chibi noted, Taoist don't believe in god(s). Hence, they are atheists.

As I have noted already in this thread, no one seriously argues this point when you replace God with Spider-Man, which indicates that God is subject to special pleading.

The complete absence of any compelling reason to believe in the literal existence of God is sufficient reason to assert God's non-existence.
The complete absence of any compelling reason to believe in the literal existence of Spider-Man is sufficient reason to assert Spider-Man's non-existence.

The form the special pleading takes is always this: God has special properties that give sufficient reason to assume God's existence despite the lack of any compelling evidence for the literal existence of God.

The argument tends to become circular because the only special property that God appears to have is that God is God.

We have means to prove the nonexistence of Spiderman. Or his actual existence. As far as I know no such method can be applied to the existence of God.

No, we don't have means to prove the nonexistence of Spider-Man. You can't prove a negative. You cannot prove that Spider-Man does not exist. The only proof for the non-existence of Spider-Man is the complete lack of evidence for his existence.

SmackCakes wrote:Maybe babies are religious... People who are left to their own devices always seem to end up inventing gods. I don't think anyone ever discovered a lost tribe who said "gods? dang we never thought of having those"

Atheism is probably something that comes later after you've gone a long time without witnessing anything supernatural.

I think it is possible that religion is instinctive... or at least a side effect of something instinctive... or maybe just a really unoriginal idea. Maybe that is why so many people cling to religion so fervently.

I've always found it interesting that every civilization (that I'm aware of) has at some point created (or discovered) religion, many without any known outside human influence.
Moreso that several religions share very similar deities/stories.


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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

how does this make Taoists atheists?

Taoists don't believe in god(s)

But they do believe in a higher power do they not?

Actually...
It was claimed that Taoists are agnostics

He stated that Taoism is not a religion to counter that argument.

Despite the contradiction, Ash has actually made an intriguing observation.
They demand of their mothers sacrifice and the holy pap
But it is nearly Half past the four of clock here in Blighty and I'll be fethed if I can think hard on the issue.

edit 4:30am that is


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Not

del'Vhar wrote:But [Taoist] do believe in a higher power do they not?

No, they do not. They believe in a lower power, an underlying way of being of the universe, against which resistance is futile, and the sage simply goes along with.

It has been a while since I read the Tao te Ching, but there is no mention of higher powers.
The Way is not a higher power.

The problem, to be fair del'Vhar, is that there are several aspect to Taoism, which have divine like beings, that are worshipped in a more religious way than other forms afaik
But despite the more superstitious and popular aspects there are no gods as such,
They are merely manifestations of The Way.
It would possibly or even probably be fair to say that some Taoists practice a religion, but as Ash said, Taoism is more of a philosophy.

The Borg are Taoist?

Gailbraithe wrote:The only proof for the non-existence of Spider-Man is the complete lack of evidence for his existence.

There is also the lack of 'need' which could be seen as evidence against something existing. There are lots of things that people can't prove or disprove the existence of. Certain theoretical particles for example... However these particles are thought to exist because they are needed to explain certain phenomenon. Over time there has become less and less need for God to exist. Supernovas and gravity helped to explain the formation of the Earth, evolution explained the existence of complex life, charges particles explained thunder storms. And it looks as though a singularity might explain the beginning of the universe. God could himself be described as a singularity... albeit an infinitely more complex one than is needed for the universe to come into being. As such there is really no 'need' to assume there is a god in order to explain anything. This does not bode well for his chances of existing.

Fair enough, I know very little about Taoism beyond the name.

So is it something similar to Fate/Destiny?

Monster Rain wrote:The Borg are Taoist?

No

they are Borg Again Christians

deffo time for sleeps the puns are getting ever worse