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Frazzled wrote:Never bring a lightsaber to a blaster fight.
-Han Solo.

I laugh at your blaster.
- Darth Vader

It's a weapon for more civilized times. Only a stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking nerfherder would ban them.

sirlynchmob wrote:Global warming is not a hoax.

I mentioned the global warming hoax.

Global warming, or global cooling, or your basic garden-variety weather is different than the global warming hoax.

The global warming hoax is that the 1-2% of greenhouse gases that man is responsible for wags the dog.

Cheers

Phanatik wrote:

Manchu wrote:The characterization of people without government IDs as "divorced from modern society" and people who do not vote not being bothered to "drag their carcass off the sofa" are full of prejudice. Given that we're talking about a law that in fact targets poor black people, that prejudice has obvious racial overtones. I agree that in a completely abstract way, far far away from the actual world where laws are actually made and enforced, this isn't about race or social status. In that abstract world of pure ideas, these laws are only about disenfranchising political opponents. But down here on Earth, where the voter ID requirements actually exist, it's poor people and old people and black people, among others, who are being disenfranchised.

Is..."Manchu" an internet username for...Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson? Hi Al! <waves> Hey Jessie!

I know they see racism under every rock and prejudice under every bushel.
But they are race peddlers.
And no one takes them seriously.

Ciao

You seem to be taking him so seriously.

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

Ouze wrote:I guess it seems silly but I'd prefer that we don't needlessly expand government and waste tax dollars to combat nonexistent problems.

Does that include Obamacare and the global warming hoax?

Cheers!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:... based on the classic lightsaber ban suggested by Phanatik:...

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa.

I never said BAN lightsabers! omg

Global warming is not a hoax.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/04/nasa-scientists-rebel-against-global-warming-hysteria.php

So you quote some letter some anonymous guy writes about/to nasa with no proof or evidence cited?

These guys say you're wrong and cite others who also say you're wrong.
http://blogs.redding.com/dcraig/archives/2012/04/irreversible-gl-1.html

and here is nasa's evidence for global warming.
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

dogma wrote:No, its pretty damn easy. I don't own the necessary software or hardware , but I could acquire it shortly if necessary; maybe 10-15k for a self-produced fake ID (much less for any I might distribute) completely indistinguishable from real ID.

No. You could make plenty that are very distinguishable from real IDs, but if they're out of state, it won't matter, unless whoever's looking them over is intimately familiar with, say, Alaska driver's licenses.

Note the word "reasonable". Its a key term, and one you should note when I use it.

Please start using it correctly.

Why would I do that, I'm 26? When I was 17 I might take such a risk, though I'm not sure why you would accept me saying that I had as proof.

You would do it to prove you're the criminal mastermind/forgery expert you make yourself out to be, of course.

Do you want me to film a guy that sells fakes saying that you're wrong? That seems like something any seller of fakes would object to.

Trouble is, you wouldn't find one. I paid a year of tuition in college making fakes, back when IDs were a lot less complicated than they are now. Even then, we had to get pretty creative with figuring out how to get around holograms. Something like this...

http://www.autoevolution.com/news-image/virginia-drivers-license-turn-laser-black-4539-1.html

...would be much harder. That second, smaller picture isn't solid; you can see right through it. There's also a lot of lettering on there that only shows up if turned a certain way. That's not a matter of choosing the right ink. We could cut some cellophane and slap it under the laminate, but that sort of trick doesn't work anymore.

When the law tries to prevent something that doesn't occur, the prevention is itself ineffective, and further easily circumvented, then yes, it is a sound argument.

It does occur. This whole thread is about a specific instance of it occurring. Does it occur enough to warrant new laws to prevent it? I don't know, but then, there also hasn't been a demonstrated downside to implementing said laws, so it's not exactly a lose/lose situation.

It is, as always, an argument from degree. I can evade laws against murder, but its much harder for me to evade those laws than these ID laws regarding voter fraud; which is already illegal.

Only an idiot would get an ID with intent to commit a serious crime under it.

What?

Why not? You would need to register beforehand, or day of, anyway. The ID is just proof of face.

I'm fairly sure I need to be registered to vote at least 30 days before the election in Virginia. Virginia also requires you to get a Virginia driver's license within thirty days of moving to the state. Showing up with a Texas ID wouldn't work.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:This response is nonsensical. You don't need to be able to issue subpoenas to investigate election fraud.

You're right, I forgot that investigations that turn up valid evidence for prosecution are conducted by independent citizens without any state or federally-mandated powers to investigate and arrest all the time.



ALL. THE. TIME.

Yeah, sure, you and I could go investigate voter fraud, but we have no ability to demand to see voter rolls, no ability to compel witness testimony, no ability to do any number of other things beyond asking questions to people under no obligation to answer.

Please produce the study on which you are relying. And in the meantime, please consider that actual incidents of voter fraud (like the one Frazzled posted about) would not be resolved by a voter ID requirement since they do not involve individuals impersonating other individuals in person at the polls.

How many books on Tammany Hall and early 20th century Chicago politics do you want me to forward your way, exactly?

Seaward wrote:You're right, I forgot that investigations that turn up valid evidence for prosecution are conducted by independent citizens without any state or federally-mandated powers to investigate and arrest all the time.

No, you're right. I forgot that investigations are never launched due to media pressure. Someone better disband that grand jury Zimmerman is about to go before since it doesn't fit in with Seaward's idea of reality. Also, we are talking about Republican governors supporting these voter ID requirements -- they could certainly direct law enforcement to investigate voter fraud.

Seaward wrote:How many books on Tammany Hall and early 20th century Chicago politics do you want me to forward your way, exactly?

Exactly zero will be necessary since those examples have nothing to do with voter ID requirement laws.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

Ouze wrote:I guess it seems silly but I'd prefer that we don't needlessly expand government and waste tax dollars to combat nonexistent problems.

Does that include Obamacare and the global warming hoax?

Cheers!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:... based on the classic lightsaber ban suggested by Phanatik:...

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa.

I never said BAN lightsabers! omg

Global warming is not a hoax.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/04/nasa-scientists-rebel-against-global-warming-hysteria.php

So you quote some letter some anonymous guy writes about/to nasa with no proof or evidence cited?

These guys say you're wrong and cite others who also say you're wrong.
http://blogs.redding.com/dcraig/archives/2012/04/irreversible-gl-1.html

and here is nasa's evidence for global warming.
http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Its not an anonymous guys. Look at the signatures. There's plenty of debate about whether there is global warming currnetly, and further, whether or not its manmade. But thats a saparate topic and I don't give a damn about it.

Manchu wrote:No, you're right. I forgot that investigations are never launched due to media pressure. Someone better disband that grand jury Zimmerman is about to go before since it doesn't fit in with Seaward's idea of reality. Also, we are talking about Republican governors supporting these voter ID requirements -- they could certainly direct law enforcement to investigate voter fraud.

That grand jury's been disbanded, dude. It definitely doesn't fit with my "idea of reality."

I take it you're a fan of O'Keefe's investigations. After all, he's just a citizen journalist, out there trying to marshal media interest to push for official investigations.

Exactly zero will be necessary since those examples have nothing to do with voter ID requirement laws.

That isn't what you asked for. You stated that voter fraud doesn't occur, and when I said that we've had problems with voter fraud before, you asked for examples, because, according to you, voter fraud has never been an issue in this country and never will be again. I provided examples to the contrary, and you have summarily moved the goalposts.

Manchu wrote:@Phanatik

All we need for the poster is a picture of a poor black Jedi or maybe a undocumented immigrant Jedi.

If you are trying to make a case somewhat tangentially that "undocumented immigrants" are being disenfranchised by voter ID laws you'll get not sympathy for THAT cause. You know since non citizens have no franchise to lose.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Well, kronk, I don't mean to suggest that this is what Republicans are necessarily trying to accomplish. But I can't see any other result of these laws. I know Republicans aren't naive or totally uninformed. I know they know there is no voter fraud -- put it another way, I know this isn't an attempt to ban lightsabers. So what's up?

The problem of course, is that your argument is based on the false premise that there is no voter fraud. A simple google search pulls 20.5mm hits.

1. It isn't.
2. Googling "No voter fraud" gets 36mm hits.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=no+voter+fraud&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=taSET_xTxazRBbDy8cIH

Haggis.

I win.

To he fair to both of you google hits are useless as a metric. The second hit on KKs uses his search term sarcastically, I'm sure Frazz's is equally useless.

Frazzled wrote:

Manchu wrote:Au contraire, I'm not even a little bit French:



I understand you are, comment dit-on, less popular there.

I don't know what that says but hate now burns bright in the eyes of ten million bad breathed little demons. It is officially France's ass for that. It may take us a while to get there, but when we do, all your French poodles shall be reviled!

Mike; my best friend for 15 years until he died of cancer last year was a 15lbs "toy" poodle (registered as a puppy). He was a trained flush, point, and retrieve bird dog. Perhaps the best hunting dog I've ever had, head and shoulders above my German Shorthair Pointers. When we moved to AZ and I stopped upland bird hunting he settled for clearing the ground hogs and birds out of our yard. I'll cotton no Poodle hate Frazz...

Seaward wrote:

dogma wrote:
Explain how requiring a photo ID to vote prevents voter fraud when I can get a fake ID that will stand up to any reasonable level of inspection for 20 dollars in the back room of nearly any convenience store.

I don't believe you can. Nobody designs fake IDs for their home state; everybody knows what they look like. When making fakes to get kids into bars, you go with something far-flung and easy. When I was making them in college, that was Texas and New Jersey. Hell, New Jersey didn't even have a hologram on theirs back then. Today, with multiple holograms and inversed pictures and all sorts of other crap? No, you're not going to find a credible fake ID for the state you're in in the back of a convenience store for 20 dollars.

I'll grant I know little or nothing about modern IDs but I know here next to campus they scan in IDs, I don't know if the fakes dupe the system. But I don't know how much an ID to fake that out would cost. It also seems to me that when this came up before someone pointed out an article with dubious(as in no) citation that 75% of blacks didn't drive; I might believe that but I would ask beyond that if so many people don't have IDs do they not buy cigarettes or booze? Are all these people who are going to be disenfranchised ALL tabacco free, tea totaler, pedestrians? I find that hard to believe. I'm wildly opposed to a national ID, and not particularly fond of the integration of the state drivers licence system that is virtually a national ID system. But it seems to me that IDs are used for a hell of a lot of things that have nothing to do with voting how do THAT many people not have them? I'd rather not see a requirement for ID, but isn't there a modern requirement already in place simply by living here?

Seaward wrote:I take it you're a fan of O'Keefe's investigations.

Are you trying to get me to say that journalists do not investigate voter fraud by citing an example of a journalist attempting voter fraud? Baffling.

Seaward wrote:I provided examples to the contrary, and you have summarily moved the goalposts.

In a sea of misdirection, this is truly a cut above. What kind of voting fraud did you think we were talking about regarding the efficacy of voter ID requirements. I guess by your stated understanding of the discussion, you could also give examples of voter fraud in Somalia or in fictional countries from scifi novels.

1. It isn't.
2. Googling "No voter fraud" gets 36mm hits.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=no+voter+fraud&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=taSET_xTxazRBbDy8cIH

Haggis.

I win.

To he fair to both of you google hits are useless as a metric. The second hit on KKs uses his search term sarcastically, I'm sure Frazz's is equally useless.

Hey I think 48mm hits for "Pizza in the US" is anything but useless!

AustonT wrote:If you are trying to make a case somewhat tangentially that "undocumented immigrants" are being disenfranchised by voter ID laws you'll get not sympathy for THAT cause. You know since non citizens have no franchise to lose.

I was referring to my suspicion, validated several times by Frazzled, that the chief fear for many is that undocumented immigrants are illegally voting -- a proposition that has as much connection to reality as worrying about undocumented immigrant Jedi wielding lightsabers irresponsibly.

Manchu wrote:

Seaward wrote:I take it you're a fan of O'Keefe's investigations.

Are you trying to get me to say that journalists do not investigate voter fraud by citing an example of a journalist attempting voter fraud? Baffling.

Seaward wrote:I provided examples to the contrary, and you have summarily moved the goalposts.

In a sea of misdirection, this is truly a cut above. What kind of voting fraud did you think we were talking about regarding the efficacy of voter ID requirements. I guess by your stated understanding of the discussion, you could also give examples of voter fraud in Somalia or in fictional countries from scifi novels.

So you now agree voter fraud does, in fact exist. Coming along nicely I see.

Frazzled wrote:So you now agree voter fraud does, in fact exist.

Sure, just like gun crimes exist. Let's get started on that national firearms registry shall we? After all, if we save but one life ...

Manchu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:So you now agree voter fraud does, in fact exist.

Sure, just like gun crimes exist. Let's get started on that national firearms registry shall we? After all, if we save but one life ...

I'm ok with that. According to the US government I only own two .22 pistols.

Manchu wrote:Are you trying to get me to say that journalists do not investigate voter fraud by citing an example of a journalist attempting voter fraud? Baffling.

I'm trying to say that media investigations go for headlines rather than truth, and that investigation of reported crimes should probably be left up to people equipped and mandated to, you know, actually investigate.

In other words, your position that Angela Lansbury would have clued us all in if vote fraud was actually occurring has a certain specious quality to it that I dislike.

In a sea of misdirection, this is truly a cut above. What kind of voting fraud did you think we were talking about regarding the efficacy of voter ID requirements. I guess by your stated understanding of the discussion, you could also give examples of voter fraud in Somalia or in fictional countries from scifi novels.

Frazzled wrote:I'm ok with that. According to the US government I only own two .22 pistols.

Hey, if you want to actually own a firearm then you can drag your carcass off the couch and register every one of them that you actually have.

Manchu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I'm ok with that. According to the US government I only own two .22 pistols.

Hey, if you want to actually own a firearm then you can drag your carcass off the couch and register every one of them that you actually have.

Nope, I'm good.

Me too!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:I'm trying to say ... It's not my fault ...

I just noticed that you are not actually talking to me about this subject. You want to talk about Gilded Age election fixing and Angela Lansbury. My mistake, I should have noticed sooner.

Manchu wrote:

AustonT wrote:If you are trying to make a case somewhat tangentially that "undocumented immigrants" are being disenfranchised by voter ID laws you'll get not sympathy for THAT cause. You know since non citizens have no franchise to lose.

I was referring to my suspicion, validated several times by Frazzled, that the chief fear for many is that undocumented immigrants are illegally voting -- a proposition that has as much connection to reality as worrying about undocumented immigrant Jedi wielding lightsabers irresponsibly.

No connection to reality you say?

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/politics/New-Haven-Asks-State-to-Allow-Non-Citizens-to-Vote--135569598.html?fullSite=y

http://www.lasvegastribune.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1099:are-illegal-immigrants-voting-in-us-elections&catid=185:rita-bonilla&Itemid=282

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1597976717

http://www.fairus.org/testimony/non-citizen-voting-in-u-s-elections-and-identification-requirements

http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=9226

http://m.eastvalleytribune.com/mobile/arizona/politics/article_0f8873ac-9157-11e0-b5be-001cc4c002e0.html

Manchu wrote:I just noticed that you are not actually talking to me about this subject. You want to talk about Gilded Age election fixing and Angela Lansbury. My mistake, I should have noticed sooner.

Your ancestry's French, isn't it?

Seaward wrote:

Manchu wrote:I just noticed that you are not actually talking to me about this subject. You want to talk about Gilded Age election fixing and Angela Lansbury. My mistake, I should have noticed sooner.

Your ancestry's French, isn't it?

And yours is German? Or you wish it were so perhaps?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AustonT wrote:No connection to reality you say?

Yes, none. But if your links were not enough evidence of that, here's the one that I formerly posted.

http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/pdf/TruthAboutVoterFraud.pdf

You're right. the "Brennan Center for Justice" has no axe to grind. You don't know about PIG lawyers do you...

Manchu wrote:And yours is German? Or you wish it were so perhaps?

It is, actually.

So I suppose if nothing else, we've proven that an individual's ability to steamroll another's position has a lot to do with genetics.

AustonT wrote:No connection to reality you say?

Yes, none. But if your links were not enough evidence of that, here's the one that I formerly posted.

http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/pdf/TruthAboutVoterFraud.pdf

Seaward wrote:So I suppose if nothing else, we've proven that an individual's ability to steamroll another's position has a lot to do with genetics.

Your Lamarckian remarks prove more than I think you intended, mein Herr.

Frazzled wrote:You're right. the "Brennan Center for Justice" has no axe to grind.

Seward wrote:A cut above HuffPo and HotAir in terms of presentation, but unfortunately not in bias.

You guys are substituting "bias" for "inaccuracy" or "poor arguments." I insist that this ignorance is vincible.

Manchu wrote:...undocumented immigrants are illegally voting -- ...

Is this cryptic talk for illegal aliens?
You know, illegal aliens have already committed at least one crime by just being in the U.S. Do you suppose they wouldn't commit another by voting? That's good of them. Perhaps they only break the odd numbered laws?

Cheers,

@Phanatik:

I'm fully aware that I'm being trolled but it's hard to resist (which isn't to say you're good at trolling) and for the sake of the impressionable youth who are probably not following along: it would make no sense for any undocumented immigrant to illegally vote because the benefit of casting a single ballot is as nothing compared to the cost of being arrested and deported.

Manchu wrote:@Phanatik:

I'm fully aware that I'm being trolled but it's hard to resist (which isn't to say you're good at trolling) and for the sake of the impressionable youth who are probably not following along: it would make no sense for any undocumented immigrant to illegally vote because the benefit of casting a single ballot is as nothing compared to the cost of being arrested and deported.

$50.00 cheap.

Is that how much you would charge?