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Carnifex's are the only other unit (for Nids anyway) that can come be upgraded to no ccw.

Happyjew wrote:Carnifex's are the only other unit (for Nids anyway) that can come be upgraded to no ccw.

The Swarmlord doesn't have any at all - Bone Sabers aren't a CCW.

See why using the model to determine number of attacks/CCW is silly?

rigeld2 wrote:

thedunator wrote:My argument is that by this rule, I either get four attacks or one attack.

Except that argument has no basis in any rules whatsoever.
Think it does? Quote one. I'll wait.

edit:
Your misunderstanding is that you think having a CCW grants the attacks on your profile. That's false. Your profile grants you those attacks, your CCW modifies how those attacks are resolved.
Every Tyranid CCW is exactly the same. Every. Single. One.
And yet nids have all number of attacks - from 1 to 6. Which would be impossible with your interpretation.

Not impossible. They are actually equipped which the models will swing at varying speeds. I understand that's fluff and not rules, but they aren't adding an additional piece of CC wargear like wraiths are. That's where the confusion is coming from.

thedunator wrote:but they aren't adding an additional piece of CC wargear like wraiths are. That's where the confusion is coming from.

So you're inventing confusion because a model without a CCW is adding a CCW... and you are somehow thinking it should get a free attack added on?

rigeld2 wrote:

thedunator wrote:but they aren't adding an additional piece of CC wargear like wraiths are. That's where the confusion is coming from.

So you're inventing confusion because a model without a CCW is adding a CCW... and you are somehow thinking it should get a free attack added on?

I'm not inventing anything. I'm not the op, I haven't written 8 pages discussing this rule debate. It didn't even occur to me that it was possible until this debate. 40k is full of cheese, and I can see both sides of the argument. Just looking at different angles and trying to develop other avenues to think through. If they're wrong, then great, one more loop hole closed.

I have to say that I agree with the (no +1 attack) side and after all this reading. I have learned something very interesting.

A model, usually a character of some sort equipped with a power sword or power ax and a pistol (SM Libby in power armor with plasma pistol comes to mind) does not in fact get +1 attack in CC unless he chooses to use the pistol as a Melee weapon. Thus all that models attacks would use the pistol's profile and not the power weapon's profile.

Now here is my reasoning: a pistol is not a Melee weapon, unless you choose to use it as such at which point it's profile changes to a Melee weapon. The BRB says that models with more than one Melee weapon MUST choose which one to attack with because "you can not mix and match abilities" of weapons.

So if the model wants to use the power weapon the pistol stays as a ranged weapon thus no +1 attack.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Sorry if I am hijacking the thread

40k-noob wrote:I have to say that I agree with the (no +1 attack) side and after all this reading. I have learned something very interesting.

A model, usually a character of some sort equipped with a power sword or power ax and a pistol (SM Libby in power armor with plasma pistol comes to mind) does not in fact get +1 attack in CC unless he chooses to use the pistol as a Melee weapon. Thus all that models attacks would use the pistol's profile and not the power weapon's profile.

Now here is my reasoning: a pistol is not a Melee weapon, unless you choose to use it as such at which point it's profile changes to a Melee weapon. The BRB says that models with more than one Melee weapon MUST choose which one to attack with because "you can not mix and match abilities" of weapons.

So if the model wants to use the power weapon the pistol stays as a ranged weapon thus no +1 attack.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Sorry if I am hijacking the thread

Pg 24, middle of the paper.

". +1 Two Weapons: Engaged rnodels with two singlehanded
weapons (often a Melee weapon and\or pistol
in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two
weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra
Attack, even if you have four arms and a sword in each."

Wow... just wow.

How many Necron players are so desperate for that extra attack that they will so cruely twist these rules to get one - is Necron not already powerful enough.

I can't see any argument supported by the rules that validates a free CCW for Wraiths, it's fairly simple

Actual # weapons | Treated as having
0 | 1 with default stats
1 | 1 with whatever stats you bought
2+ | 2 with whatever stats you have and choose to employ from those you own

Buying 1 weapon does not give you a 2nd weapon if you had 0 weapons - at no points do you actually receive a free CCW and add it to your profile, you just get an attack profile equivelant to a default CCW so that you can actually use your attacks, now that all close combat attacks are now resolved using gun like stat lines, you can't fight without one, you don't have one, here's a default one, no you can't use it to get a free attack you mook,

Kevin949 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:I have to say that I agree with the (no +1 attack) side and after all this reading. I have learned something very interesting.

A model, usually a character of some sort equipped with a power sword or power ax and a pistol (SM Libby in power armor with plasma pistol comes to mind) does not in fact get +1 attack in CC unless he chooses to use the pistol as a Melee weapon. Thus all that models attacks would use the pistol's profile and not the power weapon's profile.

Now here is my reasoning: a pistol is not a Melee weapon, unless you choose to use it as such at which point it's profile changes to a Melee weapon. The BRB says that models with more than one Melee weapon MUST choose which one to attack with because "you can not mix and match abilities" of weapons.

So if the model wants to use the power weapon the pistol stays as a ranged weapon thus no +1 attack.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Sorry if I am hijacking the thread

Pg 24, middle of the paper.

". +1 Two Weapons: Engaged rnodels with two singlehanded
weapons (often a Melee weapon and\or pistol
in each hand) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two
weapons gain no additional benefit; you only get one extra
Attack, even if you have four arms and a sword in each."

Is that the only prerequisite for +1 attack right there on Pg 24? If that is the case then a lot of models will get +1. Regular Tact Marines have a pistol and a boltgun both "single-handed weapons." The part in parentheses is just an an example and not the rule.

There has to be more to it than what's on page 24.

The part you are missing is that it only requires that you have two single-handed weapons (not two single handed close-combat weapons), so yes, tac marines do get the extra attack for having a pistol and close combat weapon

SCvodimier wrote:The part you are missing is that it only requires that you have two single-handed weapons (not two single handed close-combat weapons), so yes, tac marines do get the extra attack for having a pistol and close combat weapon

Nope, most tac marines don't get a CCW. Bolter is not a single handed weapon or a CCW, only the pistol counts, most tac marines do not get the extra attack. I've heard lots of complaints because only some Codex's have the all important CCW on the profile for the extra attack (SW Grey Hunters and CSM I think)

Of course according to pg 52 "All pistols count as CCW during the Assault Phase" therefore according to Necron logic they do not count as CCW during the shooting phase so an extra CCW spontaneously appears, so by the assault phase they all have the extra attack anyway, as does every model that has any pistol listed - in fact the worst thing you can do for close combat is turn up with a CCW as that's always a CCW so the warp hole of spontaneous melee weapon creation never opens near you.

maxcarrion wrote:

SCvodimier wrote:The part you are missing is that it only requires that you have two single-handed weapons (not two single handed close-combat weapons), so yes, tac marines do get the extra attack for having a pistol and close combat weapon

Nope, most tac marines don't get a CCW. Bolter is not a single handed weapon or a CCW, only the pistol counts, most tac marines do not get the extra attack. I've heard lots of complaints because only some Codex's have the all important CCW on the profile for the extra attack (SW Grey Hunters and CSM I think)

Of course according to pg 52 "All pistols count as CCW during the Assault Phase" therefore according to Necron logic they do not count as CCW during the shooting phase so an extra CCW spontaneously appears, so by the assault phase they all have the extra attack anyway, as does every model that has any pistol listed - in fact the worst thing you can do for close combat is turn up with a CCW as that's always a CCW so the warp hole of spontaneous melee weapon creation never opens near you.

Right..don't know how I missed that...anyway, what he said

40k-noob wrote:

Is that the only prerequisite for +1 attack right there on Pg 24? If that is the case then a lot of models will get +1. Regular Tact Marines have a pistol and a boltgun both "single-handed weapons." The part in parentheses is just an an example and not the rule.

There has to be more to it than what's on page 24.

Well of course there is more to it, I was giving you the rule on that page that tells you when you can claim a bonus attack. You do, of course, still have to abide by the standard assault rules in which only melee classified weapons can be used in an assault and only melee classified weapons count towards anything in assault. Consequently speaking, you would not add an emperors champions' strength bonus (from his sword) to your bolt pistol in shooting, such is the same that you can't use your bolter in assault. In fact, there is an example below the entry detailing 5 space marines with bolters only getting 5 attacks (10 on the charge).

You first must cover the assault rules and then apply said bonuses as your models that meet the prerequisite. In this case, it is being equipped with two single-handed melee weapons.

To further note, on page 51 - "However, it's worth
remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons
he gains +1 Attack in close combat (see page24)."