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Apologies if this has already been asked. I did some searching but didn't see it.

Wraiths can take a weapon whose type is pistol. Does this give them an extra CC attack? I figure not, as they don't have an ordinary CCW to pair with, but I'm not 100% sure.

They do not have another weapon that is classed as a CCW. It does let them do some wound allocation though.

calypso2ts wrote:They do not have another weapon that is classed as a CCW. It does let them do some wound allocation though.

I believe that their Phaseshifter is listed a wargear as well and also grants Rending... Sounds like a CCW to me.

Delta Echo wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:They do not have another weapon that is classed as a CCW. It does let them do some wound allocation though.

I believe that their Phaseshifter is listed a wargear as well and also grants Rending... Sounds like a CCW to me.

The phase shifter is something else entirely. The rule that gives them rending ("Phase Attacks") is only a special rule that affects their close combat attacks, but is not a close combat weapon in itself.

Rending is granted by a special rule not wargear.
Unfortunately without a ccw you can't get that extra attack from the pistol.

copper.talos wrote:Rending is granted by a special rule not wargear.
Unfortunately without a ccw you can't get that extra attack from the pistol.

After some re-reading and re-thinking, I have to concur with your point. No extra CC attack is granted by the pistol being it is the only CCW. I still find it odd however that Wraiths rend in CC (granted by Phased Attacks special rule) yet have no base CCW. Ward was very careful about not giving them rending claws for this very reason it seems.

it seems to be the trend throughout the necron codex that any additional weapons (rather than swaps) seem to be carapace mounted or underslung. So they are completely separate to CCWs and dont count as such.

While we are on the subject of close combat wepons. Do Spyders get an extra attack if they take both the particle beamer and a fabricator claw array. It states that the fabricator is a close combat wepon. So that combined with the beamber does it get an extra attack?

Is the particle beamer a pistol? No.

Ghaz wrote:Is the particle beamer a pistol? No.

Indeed, the particle caster is the pistol of the particle family. So no, Spyder does not take extra attacks in CC.
Was actually going to put this question on the table myself, thanks OP for beating me to it!

I do believe this has now changed. I think.

p.51 states that is a model is not specifically states as having a Melee weapon, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon.

After that, it mentions that pistols can be used as a CCW.

So, does the Wraith get its default CCW, and then if you give him a pistol, he has two? Or does giving him the pistol make him ineligible for the 'free' CCW?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While we're on this, see also Canoptek Spyders and Fabricator Claw Arrays.

nightbringer's chosen is correct: in 6th anything without a default melee weapon listed in their profile now gains one, including Wraiths.


As for the latter question: I'm inclined to believe that their new default CCW can be combined with the pistol for the +1 attack (same with spyders and their fabricator array), but the wording is unclear enough to indicate wether or not adding an optional CCW to their profile negates the free default one they'd otherwise receive.

Incorrect. As soon as you give them a pistol, they now have a weapon with the 'Melee' type and thus do not get the free weapon and do not get the bonus +1 Attack in close combat.

Ghaz wrote:Incorrect. As soon as you give them a pistol, they now have a weapon with the 'Melee' type and thus do not get the free weapon and do not get the bonus +1 Attack in close combat.

They don't -get- the free weapon. But what if they already -had- the free weapon?
It seems to be an issue of timing. When do they receive the free weapon? Do they have it as you're building them because they don't have a normal CCW, and then you buy them their pistol? Or do you wait until they are completely constructed, check for melee weapon, and then hand them one as they're going out the door if they don't have one?

I'm inclined to believe the intent is that they have a default CCW and then the pistol gives them +1A, as otherwise there is 0 reason to say "Fabricator claw array is a close combat weapon", but it would not be the first time that intent and actual rule did not mesh.

Order makes no difference. If you have a melee weapon then you do not get the free weapon. The 'No Specified Melee Weapon' rule is simply a way to explain how a model without a melee weapon can fight in close combat. It is not meant to be a cheap way to get a bonus attack in close combat.

Ghaz wrote:Order makes no difference. If you have a melee weapon then you do not get the free weapon. The 'No Specified Melee Weapon' rule is simply a way to explain how a model without a melee weapon can fight in close combat. It is not meant to be a cheap way to get a bonus attack in close combat.

10 points isn't all that cheap.
And I'm still not sure about that interpretation; like I said, why would it mention at all that the fabricator claws are a CCW if you just get one in general and if in 5E when the codex was printed you didn't need to have one at all?
And if I am building a Wraith on my army list, he has a CCW until I give him a pistol, at which point he suddenly loses that CCW? It seems odd, though as I said, odder things have happened in this game.

Anyone else have any insight on the matter?

And again, what do you have to prove that there is an order and by using a specific order you get a bonus that you wouldn't get otherwise? You're looking for Easter eggs. You're trying to get the bonus attack for free when Wraiths should be getting the bonus attack at all.

No, that is just a fortunate side-effect, or so side B to the argument goes.

The relevent text is as follows: "If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the melee weapon type..."


Side A:
The model is 'specifically stated' as having a weapon with the melee type if it starts with one in it's default profile 'and/or' if you spend the points necessary to equip it with an optional one.

Side B
The model is 'specifically stated' as having a weapon with the melee type 'only' if it starts with one in it's default profile.

For people who agree with side A in this argument: As people are discussing Wraiths in this thread, i'm going to go with them for an example. Where does it 'specifically state' that they have a close combat weapon? The codex does not indicate such.

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:I'm inclined to believe the intent is that they have a default CCW and then the pistol gives them +1A, as otherwise there is 0 reason to say "Fabricator claw array is a close combat weapon", but it would not be the first time that intent and actual rule did not mesh.

You're assuming that the Necron codex was written with 6th edition in mind. That's a mistake to do, since the codex was written for 5th edition.

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Order makes no difference. If you have a melee weapon then you do not get the free weapon. The 'No Specified Melee Weapon' rule is simply a way to explain how a model without a melee weapon can fight in close combat. It is not meant to be a cheap way to get a bonus attack in close combat.

10 points isn't all that cheap.
And I'm still not sure about that interpretation; like I said, why would it mention at all that the fabricator claws are a CCW if you just get one in general and if in 5E when the codex was printed you didn't need to have one at all?
And if I am building a Wraith on my army list, he has a CCW until I give him a pistol, at which point he suddenly loses that CCW? It seems odd, though as I said, odder things have happened in this game.

Anyone else have any insight on the matter?

The way I read the "No Specified Melee Weapon" rule is at the start of the game. The fact that they have no close combat weapon has no bearing on the creation of the army list, as they have no replacement of said weapon, and they are not armed with said weapon in the codex. Another reason I read it as start of the game is that when you are constructing the list you are capable of giving melee weapons to several of the units (Canoptek Spyders for one example) meaning that it is rather useless to apply the NSMW rule at that point since they can be given one. Thus we have to ask, when does it make the most sense to apply said rule? The best point would be at the start of the game, when we have already determined exactly what wargear a model has for the game. If he has no melee weapon, apply NSMW rule.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:I'm inclined to believe the intent is that they have a default CCW and then the pistol gives them +1A, as otherwise there is 0 reason to say "Fabricator claw array is a close combat weapon", but it would not be the first time that intent and actual rule did not mesh.

You're assuming that the Necron codex was written with 6th edition in mind. That's a mistake to do, since the codex was written for 5th edition.

Preferred Enemy on Destroyers says that they were at least giving an eye towards 6E.
And as mentioned, fabricator claw arrays counting as a CCW make just as little sense in 5E.

I suppose part of my issue with the matter is finding it odd that my troops' wargear exists in a state of flux until the moment the game starts. I can just see my commander now, looking over his troops as they're about to engage the enemy. "We will show these upstart vermin to whom this galaxy rightf...wait, a second, do you not have a Particle Caster? By The Deceiver's Mirrored Bollocks, what were you thinking? Here, take this bladey-thing. Okay, NOW we can charge."

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:I suppose part of my issue with the matter is finding it odd that my troops' wargear exists in a state of flux until the moment the game starts. I can just see my commander now, looking over his troops as they're about to engage the enemy. "We will show these upstart vermin to whom this galaxy rightf...wait, a second, do you not have a Particle Caster? By The Deceiver's Mirrored Bollocks, what were you thinking? Here, take this bladey-thing. Okay, NOW we can charge."

I look at it more along the lines of, "Well boys, the REMFs (Rear Echelon Motherfethers for non-military folk) did not see fit to outfit us with something to fight hand to hand with. Pick up whatever rocks and pointy sticks you can, or you can stick to fists and harsh language. Either way, let's get to it."

If they have a CCW/pistol, then they don't qualify for the 'free' one.

The no specified rule is a generic rule that applies to models. There is no mentioning that it is in use only in the assault phase. It refers to the description of the model and stops there. The vanilla spyder has 1 CCW. The FClaw is an upgrade. Upgrades never substitute anything unless they specifically mention it in their entry. So the vanilla spyder has 1 CCW and the upgraded spyder has 2 CCW. Same with wraiths and the pistol.

And anyway in 5th we were all questioning why would ever mention the FClaw as a CCW since it didn't have any meaning back then. But since the necron codex was designed with 6th in mind, it is apparent the FClaw was classified as a CCW with the no specified weapon rule in mind.

Yes they do have close combat weapons.
there is no specified weapon on page 44 or 94 of the necron codex.
now turn to page 51 of the new rulebook
"No Specified Melee Weapon
If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type it is treated as being armed with a single cose combat weapon."
thereby, wraiths have a single close combat weapon. people should really read the new rulebook -_- enjoy your +1 pistol attack, as i will thoroughly AND DONT FORGET THE HAMMER OF WRATH FOR CHARGING :p...
hmm, never mind, jost noticedthat some1 else pointed out this rule previously

Are Close Combat and Melee the same thing?

There is an entire section (page 60) on melee weapons, I don't see pistols there. They do count as a close combat weapon, but do so as a special rule for pistols, not as a melee weapon.

So, unless it can be shown that a Pistol IS a melee weapon, +1 A for owning just a pistol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, page 24, seems to support that a pistol is not a melee weapon (under +1 Two Weapons).

That being said, the example below, specifically uses Space Marines as having only 1 attack. Is an example a rule?

EDIT: I see these directly tied to each other. Either the SM Tacticals get +1 attacj AND the wraiths do, or neither do.

Lobukia wrote:Are Close Combat and Melee the same thing?

There is an entire section (page 60) on melee weapons, I don't see pistols there. They do count as a close combat weapon, but do so as a special rule for pistols, not as a melee weapon.

So, unless it can be shown that a Pistol IS a melee weapon, +1 A for owning just a pistol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, page 24, seems to support that a pistol is not a melee weapon (under +1 Two Weapons).

That being said, the example below, specifically uses Space Marines as having only 1 attack. Is an example a rule?

Take a read on page 51 under pistols as a close combat weapon, and it's all laid out right there.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Lobukia wrote:Are Close Combat and Melee the same thing?

There is an entire section (page 60) on melee weapons, I don't see pistols there. They do count as a close combat weapon, but do so as a special rule for pistols, not as a melee weapon.

So, unless it can be shown that a Pistol IS a melee weapon, +1 A for owning just a pistol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, page 24, seems to support that a pistol is not a melee weapon (under +1 Two Weapons).

That being said, the example below, specifically uses Space Marines as having only 1 attack. Is an example a rule?

Take a read on page 51 under pistols as a close combat weapon, and it's all laid out right there.

Yeah, I see the dots connecting now. Close combat weapons are a subset of Melee. Therefore, a pistol is a melee weapon, and neither wraiths, nor marines get the +1 attack (of course, as expected, given the example, the CCW definition on page 51, and the fact the boards would be singing out if tacs got an extra attack).

the marines just have bolters so that isnt the same thing
and for the orks which is the second example we all know orks have choppa /sluga we dont know if wraiths have pistol/ccw

azgrim wrote:the marines just have bolters so that isnt the same thing
and for the orks which is the second example we all know orks have choppa /sluga we dont know if wraiths have pistol/ccw

Marines have a pistol too

Do all marines come stock with them? Since the example just says the have bolters.