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I'm in with the "no" crowd.

Fighting a Challenge, p64 BRB wrote:For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with other.

Combined with

Outside Forces, p64 BRB wrote:Whilst the challenge is ongoing, only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another.

plus

Combatant Slain, p64 BRB wrote:When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, ...the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase.

I read this as;
You are in b2b with the opponent, and only the opponent, until the challenge is over.
You must attack the opponent, and only the opponent, until the challenge is over.
You remain in the challenge with the opponent, and only the opponent, even if he is killed.

The remaining wounds are you kicking the downed foe.

If, You are ongoing in the challenge ---> all attacks must be directed at the challengee. You are ongoing in the challenge ---> even if he dies, until the end of phase.
reads
All attacks must be directed at the challengee, even if he dies, until the end of phase.

DeathReaper wrote:
It is that simple.

Also the rules work fine in this case.

It's not "that simple"

DeathReaper wrote:
The models are considered to be in B2B until the challenge ends at the end of the phase.

Is an assertion you are making.
The rules do not say they're in base for the entire combat. It says they're in base only with each other.
You're saying the rules require you to treat a model as in base contact with a casualty.

Apparently you missed the quotes showing that the challenge lasts the entire phase

Meaning you are in btb for the entire phase

It isnt an assertion, it is solid, simple fact.

Not if one of the models dies.

The rules actually specify that the challenge is ongoing even if one of the combatants in a challenge is slain.

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other." P.64

and

"when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase." Also P.64

So Challenges go until the end of the phase even if one combatant is dead, and these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

Put that together and you can see it is not an assertion I am making. That is RAW.

The rules do require you to treat a model as in base contact with a casualty.

How do you not understand that?

DeathReaper wrote:The rules actually specify that the challenge is ongoing even if one of the combatants in a challenge is slain.

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other." P.64

and

"when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase." Also P.64

So Challenges go until the end of the phase even if one combatant is dead, and these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

Put that together and you can see it is not an assertion I am making. That is RAW.

"only with each other" means not with anyone else. that doesn't imply they're "always in base contact no matter what".

"You may only have grape soda" means you can't have root beer, not that you must always drink grape soda under every circumstance. If there's no grape soda, you're not drinking anything.

DeathReaper wrote: How do you not understand that?

Stop being snarky. I obviously understand and disagree with your point.

jcress410 wrote:"only with each other" means not with anyone else. that doesn't imply they're "always in base contact no matter what".

This is how I read it too.

jcress410 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The rules actually specify that the challenge is ongoing even if one of the combatants in a challenge is slain.

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other." P.64

and

"when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase." Also P.64

So Challenges go until the end of the phase even if one combatant is dead, and these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

Put that together and you can see it is not an assertion I am making. That is RAW.

"only with each other" means not with anyone else. that doesn't imply they're "always in base contact no matter what".

For the duration[i][u] of the challenge these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.
so yes it does mean they are in base 2 base no matter what , unless a more specific rule comes into play.

jcress410 wrote:"You may only have grape soda" means you can't have root beer, not that you must always drink grape soda under every circumstance. If there's no grape soda, you're not drinking anything.

useless quote filled with logical fallacy

kambien wrote:
useless quote filled with logical fallacy

Which fallacy do you think that is? And do you really think being dismissive and snide makes your argument more palatable?

you can bold whichever word you want in the sentence. You're reading it like the word "only" isn't there. You're insisting it reads

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact with each other."

but it really reads

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."

Which means if you put three models in b2b with a nob, and the nob is in a challenge with one of them, he's only considered to be in b2b with one model.

Now, if that model is removed as a casualty, there are two models physically in b2b with the nob but he is "considered to be" in base with nobody

jcress410 wrote:"only with each other" means not with anyone else.

Okay so you do understand.

jcress410 wrote:that doesn't imply they're "always in base contact no matter what".

That is correct again, that does not imply it, but the other part says it explicitly:

"when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase." Also P.64

So for the duration of the challenge, which is considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase even when one combatant is slain, they are considered to be in base contact only with each other. So they can not be in base with anyone else and can not wound anyone else, as they are in base to base with the other participant in the challenge until the end of the phase.

This is indisputable evidence that they are in base contact only with each other (Which means not with anyone else.)

jcress410 wrote:Now, if that model is removed as a casualty, there are two models physically in b2b with the nob but he is "considered to be" in base with nobody

See this is where you are incorrect. The rules say he is considered to be in base contact only with the other participant in the challenge, even if that guy is dead.

DeathReaper wrote:

jcress410 wrote:"only with each other" means not with anyone else.

Okay so you do understand.

jcress410 wrote:that doesn't imply they're "always in base contact no matter what".

That is correct again, that does not imply it, but the other part says it explicitly:

"when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase." Also P.64

So for the duration of the challenge, which is considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase even when one combatant is slain, they are considered to be in base contact only with each other. So they can not be in base with anyone else and can not wound anyone else, as they are in base to base with the other participant in the challenge until the end of the phase.

This doesn't say they are in base until the end of the phase. It just says the only model it can be in base with is the other participant in the challenge

This is indisputable evidence that they are in base contact only with each other (Which means not with anyone else.)

jcress410 wrote:Now, if that model is removed as a casualty, there are two models physically in b2b with the nob but he is "considered to be" in base with nobody

See this is where you are incorrect. The rules say he is considered to be in base contact only with the other participant in the challenge, even if that guy is dead.

Even if that guy is dead? Where does it say that?
You're insisting the challenge continuing implies the status "base to base" continues, but the rules don't say that. They don't even imply it.
The challenge lasts the entire combat. At initiative one, the nob attacks the character who challenged him. Wounds three times. Allocate the first wound to the character, it fails its save and is removed as a casualty.

Wound allocation rules require us to move on to the next closest model

You're insisting, at this point, the nob is "considered" to be in base with a model no longer on the table.
And, I think, you're saying you continue to allocate wounds to a model that is no longer on the table.

Which wound allocation rules out by saying (p25)

once a model has a wound allocated to it, you must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the wound pool is empty.

I don't know. I think you're leaning on that sentence to say something it doesn't.

jcress410 wrote: This doesn't say they are in base until the end of the phase. It just says the only model it can be in base with is the other participant in the challenge

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other." P.64

This establishes that for the duration of the challenge they are... considered to be in base contact only with each other

They can only be in base contact with the other participant in the challenge for the DURATION of the challenge.

How long does the challenge last?

jcress410 wrote:Even if that guy is dead? Where does it say that?
You're insisting the challenge continuing implies the status "base to base" continues, but the rules don't say that.

Actually the ruled do say that, the challenge continues until the end of the phase, and when in a challenge they are considered to be only in B2B with each other.

"when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase." P.64

The challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase even when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, until the end of the phase.

Please re-read the rules, I have posted them verbatim from the rule book, you still seem to not be understanding them.

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase.
pg 64

A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step.

If there are no enemy models in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step the Wound is allocated to the next closest enemy model.
pg 25

Well, that seals the deal. There's no wound carryover in challenges. You guys, and the rules, have convinced me.

DeathReaper wrote:

jcress410 wrote: This doesn't say they are in base until the end of the phase. It just says the only model it can be in base with is the other participant in the challenge

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other." P.64

This establishes that for the duration of the challenge they are... considered to be in base contact only with each other

They can only be in base contact with the other participant in the challenge for the DURATION of the challenge.

How long does the challenge last?

jcress410 wrote:Even if that guy is dead? Where does it say that?
You're insisting the challenge continuing implies the status "base to base" continues, but the rules don't say that.

Actually the ruled do say that, the challenge continues until the end of the phase, and when in a challenge they are considered to be only in B2B with each other.

"when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase." P.64

The challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase even when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, until the end of the phase.

Please re-read the rules, I have posted them verbatim from the rule book, you still seem to not be understanding them.

You've eloquently restated your argument without explaining why the surviving character can't be in base with nobody. Which seems to be the situation after the other half of the challenge has been removed as a casualty.

only with eachother means not with anyone else. that doesn't mean they're always counted as being in base for the entire combat. If one of them is removed as a casualty, the remaining model is in base with nobody and wounds allocate to the next closest model.

jcress410 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

jcress410 wrote: This doesn't say they are in base until the end of the phase. It just says the only model it can be in base with is the other participant in the challenge

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other." P.64

This establishes that for the duration of the challenge they are... considered to be in base contact only with each other

They can only be in base contact with the other participant in the challenge for the DURATION of the challenge.

How long does the challenge last?

jcress410 wrote:Even if that guy is dead? Where does it say that?
You're insisting the challenge continuing implies the status "base to base" continues, but the rules don't say that.

Actually the ruled do say that, the challenge continues until the end of the phase, and when in a challenge they are considered to be only in B2B with each other.

"when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase." P.64

The challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase even when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, until the end of the phase.

Please re-read the rules, I have posted them verbatim from the rule book, you still seem to not be understanding them.

You've eloquently restated your argument without explaining why the surviving character can't be in base with nobody. Which seems to be the situation after the other half of the challenge has been removed as a casualty.

only with eachother means not with anyone else. that doesn't mean they're always counted as being in base for the entire combat. If one of them is removed as a casualty, the remaining model is in base with nobody and wounds allocate to the next closest model.

when one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase." P.64
that disagrees with you

jcress410 wrote:You've eloquently restated your argument without explaining why the surviving character can't be in base with nobody. Which seems to be the situation after the other half of the challenge has been removed as a casualty.

He can't be in base with nobody because the rules do not allow him to leave base contact with the other challenger, even if he is slain, as he is still considered to be in Base contact with the dead guy.

jcress410 wrote:only with eachother means not with anyone else. that doesn't mean they're always counted as being in base for the entire combat. If one of them is removed as a casualty, the remaining model is in base with nobody and wounds allocate to the next closest model.

The underlined is where you are incorrect. The remaining model is considered to be in base contact with the dead guy.

Q: Till when?
A: for the duration of the challenge.

Q: When does the challenge end?
A: The end of the phase.

You guys just keep saying "he's still considered to be in base", without a single warrant.

The challenge doesn't end until the end of the phase. Right. I get it.
That doesn't imply they're in base the whole time.

THey can only be in base with eachother. But that doesn't mean they have to be in base with anyone at all.

jcress410 wrote:

THey can only be in base with eachother. But that doesn't mean they have to be in base with anyone at all.

this statement contradicts itself

jcress410 wrote:You guys just keep saying "he's still considered to be in base", without a single warrant.

See the underlined where it tells you this is true.

Facts:

The challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase. P.64

and

For the duration of the challenge they are considered to be in base contact only with each other. P.64

Therefore the conclusion is: Until the end of the phase they are considered to be in base contact only with each other.

This lasts until the end of the phase even if one model is slain. it says that on P.64

Does this clear it up?

kambien wrote:

jcress410 wrote:

THey can only be in base with eachother. But that doesn't mean they have to be in base with anyone at all.

this statement contradicts itself

I don't think it does. "This glass can be filled only with wine" does not mean that you store the glass with wine in it. Similarly, saying that the models are considered in base to base only with each other does not imply that they must be considered in base to base at all times - merely that, when they are considered so, it is only with each other. And for those who have asked "Then why is the challenge considered to be ongoing?", it's because this restriction on base to base contact is not the only effect of a challenge that is affecting the model.

As I've stated before, I think both are legitimate ways of reading that sentence. At this point, we're starting to devolve into "I'm right, you're wrong!" shouting matches, and I don't think anything new has been added to the discussion in pages. Please, do us a favor and refrain both from reposting your previous idea and from posting something "new" without reading the thread. It'll make this go a lot smoother, and a lot less heated.

You are all forgetting the most important rule:resolve the wound allocating step as if the challenge combatants are not there. Here is an example.

A Space Marine Sergeant with 5 Marines charges an Ork squad with a Nob and 5 Boyz. The initiative order would be:
Initiative 4 - Sergeant challenges Nob, who accepts. Sergeant makes his attacks and causes 2 wounds. The Marines make their attacks and get 4 wounds. When it comes time to allocate wounds you start with the models in btb with an attacker at that initiative step, but you also allocate wounds as if the Nob and Sergeant were not there. So the Sergeant's attacks get allocated to the Nob, since he is the only model in btb with an attacker at that initiative step since he is not part of the other combat. The Marine attacks get allocated to the Orks only for that reason and the rules say that only the combatants can hurt each other.

Doomaflatchi wrote:

kambien wrote:

jcress410 wrote:

THey can only be in base with eachother. But that doesn't mean they have to be in base with anyone at all.

this statement contradicts itself

I don't think it does. "This glass can be filled only with wine" does not mean that you store the glass with wine in it. Similarly, saying that the models are considered in base to base only with each other does not imply that they must be considered in base to base at all times - merely that, when they are considered so, it is only with each other. And for those who have asked "Then why is the challenge considered to be ongoing?", it's because this restriction on base to base contact is not the only effect of a challenge that is affecting the model.

As I've stated before, I think both are legitimate ways of reading that sentence. At this point, we're starting to devolve into "I'm right, you're wrong!" shouting matches, and I don't think anything new has been added to the discussion in pages. Please, do us a favor and refrain both from reposting your previous idea and from posting something "new" without reading the thread. It'll make this go a lot smoother, and a lot less heated.

he didn't read the very first paragraph for challenges which tells you to put them directly into base to base contact or a bunch of other things i'm not going to write out

Jsenth and Kirsanth agree with what I said about 'ONLY.' Doomaflatchi also gets it.

Kambien, if 7 models are in actual base contact with a character, and you issue a challenge, you still have 7 model touching the base. But 'ONLY' the character can count as being in base. The other 6 DO NOT. Even if the character is killed. To say we have not read the argument is to miss the point we are trying to make.

Lobukia, I respect your argument, but I hate that you said I did not read your argument--I obviously responded directly to you with evidence of a rule and a quandary of how you would resolve it with said presented evidence as it contradicts your statement. I asked you the question because I value your input, NOT because I was ignoring you hehe.)

Lobukia and Nos, you have never addressed this point, which I have put to you. You continue to go back to your explanation of 'ONLY' yet that has been shown to be incorrect.

As said already, 'Only in base contact with each other' does not preclude not being in base contact.

If you are permitted to 'Only fill a Stein with Beer' or 'Only fill a Glass with wine' the condition that the Stein or Glass is NOT filled is still a possibility. That is how the 'ONLY' in the base to base rule works. I posted earlier that, were the 'ONLY' either stricken or moved in the sentence it would change the sentence's meaning... obviously different word combinations change the meaning. But the combination we DO have in the rules says that you can only be in base contact with the challenger assuming they are both alive.

Except that the rules clearly state the opposite, DevianID. "When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase"

Note, it says phase. Not Sub-Phase.

Lets go up the page exactly one sentence:

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."

What isn't clear about that? I desperately want it to be so that when I roll up 10 attacks with abaddon or 12 or 14 with my Khorne daemonweapon lord, those extra wounds carry over. But that's not the way it works.

Next page, Forging a narrative: " Many players like to resolve this crucial battle after all other models have struck their blows-"

How could they encourage this if there is the possibility that some of those models that struck blows might have died at earlier Initiative steps?

Back a page: Resolve the Wound Allocation step as if the two characters were not there. Seems pretty simple.

@DevianID:

First of all, I was not calling you out, just all the 1 sentences posters who hadn't read anything (on either side). I really cannot disagree more with your reading of the entire "only" thing. If I tell you that you can ONLY fill a Stein with Beer, and if you drink that Beer, it is still considered to be full until the end of meal, then you are looking at the scenario in the rule book. But, let's say I concede the point, and let's at least put it aside.

What then does 64 mean about "resolve wound allocation as if the two characters were not there"? This point alone closes the door on allocation, which is the only way into the overflow room.

Then look at Forging the Narrative, which gives us choice on when to resolve the challenge

Then look at 429, which directly tells us it is separate

Then look at the things it tells us outside forces CAN do, and being wounded or taking saves certainly isn't one of them

Then look at the result section, which DOES tell us how the challenge results affect the larger combat

There are 6 points here that, as written, either frame the poorly worded rules, or flat out tell us how to handle them. I don't need all of them to make my case, I only need 2 or 3 (though all 6 being there gives me complete confidence in RAW not supporting overflow). The reason I have not touched much on the whole 'only' thing, is that it really doesn't matter that much, nor is it the lynch pin to my case. Its just one piece of a puzzle, and with out it, I still think the picture is clear.

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."
I'm at a loss as to how people, after having this exact quote from the book posted ad nauseum, are still reading it as "For the duration of the challenge, these two models may be considered to be in base contact only with each other.

Doomaflatchi wrote:
I don't think it does. "This glass can be filled only with wine" does not mean that you store the glass with wine in it. Similarly, saying that the models are considered in base to base only with each other does not imply that they must be considered in base to base at all times - merely that, when they are considered so, it is only with each other. And for those who have asked "Then why is the challenge considered to be ongoing?", it's because this restriction on base to base contact is not the only effect of a challenge that is affecting the model.

It says are in base contact only with each other.
are - A third-person plural simple present tense of be.

To use your example, the statement in questions says "The glasses are filled only with wine". Not "This glasses can be filled only with wine". There is a massive difference between "can" and "are". There is no reference to possibility, potential or the future. The statement forces the wine right into that damn glass.

Lobukia wrote:Then look at 429, which directly tells us it is separate

I completely missed that. This right here makes me more convinced that I got it right.

Devian - no, it is not incorrect. *are* in base contact with each other means they *are*, not *can be* in base contct with each other

The present tense meaning they remain in base contact with each other for the duration of the phase, as that is the duration of the challenge.

There is no rules support for wound overflow. None.

"You are only permitted to date that girl" leaves the possibility open for not dating anyone at all. Being allowed to do something (and only one thing) does not mean that you MUST do it, and so I agree with the wound overflow proponents that this is the literal reading of this statement. If it matters, the opposite is actually, "You are permitted only to date that girl." In this statement, the only thing that you are allowed to do is date that girl - the allowance to NOT date ANYONE at all is removed, and so this wording of the statement is identical to, "You MUST date that girl."

However, I don't agree that this interpretation of the statement leads to the allowance of wound overflow. It is SO CLEAR that wound overflow was not intended that I have trouble understanding why anyone would try to argue otherwise. Common usage of the statements quoted above and how the word "only" is used within the rules (and within common usage) do not preclude the introduction of wound overflow - common usage suggests the opposite.

Tangent wrote:"You are only permitted to date that girl" leaves the possibility open for not dating anyone at all. Being allowed to do something (and only one thing) does not mean that you MUST do it, and so I agree with the wound overflow proponents that this is the literal reading of this statement. If it matters, the opposite is actually, "You are permitted only to date that girl." In this statement, the only thing that you are allowed to do is date that girl - the allowance to NOT date ANYONE at all is removed, and so this wording of the statement is identical to, "You MUST date that girl."

"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other."

or to use your own example:

"For the duration of your relationship, you are dating only that girl."

There is no reference to imperative, possibility, choice, potential or the future. It declares the state that the challengers exist in. "For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other". Not " For the duration of the challenge, these two models can only considered to be in base contact only with each other".

The difference is MASSIVE.