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 Manchu wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Sometimes they contradict each other.

Yep but mostly they don't.

Agreed! Thank you.

If that's all we disagreed about then I really am sorry for dragging it for so long.

Hey man, quite alright - it takes two to tango and I was having fun digging around for quotes. Anyway I think we can agree there are contradictions all throughout the fluff, even sometimes within the Horus Heresy series, and I think as a result everyone ends up carrying their own personal version of things around.

And like someone said above, the fact that people both inside and outside the universe seem confused about Nikaea probably indicates that it really isn't clear-cut. You've done a good job backing your stuff up and it's all kind of subjective so I won't say you're wrong at all, I simply interpret things differently. Just for curiosity's sake, I'll look at my old codexes and whatnot tonight to see what I can find about the old version of Nikaea.

Thanks dude, I'd still like to see what sources beyond IA, VoH, and A Thousand Sons say.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
It is worth remembering that McNeil has botched the characters of both Horus and the Emperor, and doesn't seem to understand the HH timeline, so all of his contributions are questionable.

Whether Russ is guilty of anything, it is a RAW vs RAI argument. I can't wait to read Scars for this very reason.

How has McNeill botched the character of the Emperor?

You're so hung up on Outcast Dead.

What of ADB, who has botched Leman Russ and Magnus? And who generally doesn't seem to give a feth about other writers' precedents.

I can't help it, it was traumatizing.

I don't know if Magnus has been botched, although ADB did make him seem like a pussy when Lorgar was berating him, but meh, he's been overcompensating with Lorgar ever since people decried him as a pantywaist tool after First Heretic.

I don't know if Magnus has been botched, although ADB did make him seem like a pussy when Lorgar was berating him, but meh, he's been overcompensating with Lorgar ever since people decried him as a pantywaist tool after First Heretic.

How the hell was Lorgar a panty waist fool, the guy met with thirsting Gods and started the largest war in human history and watched what he thought was his own death at the hands of Corax.

He was a big pansy in First Heretic, first crying about having to be a warrior, then crying about Monarchia, then being led around by Erebus and Kor Phaeron, then sending Argel Tal into the Eye before daring to venture in himself.

 Omegus wrote:

I can't help it, it was traumatizing.

I don't know if Magnus has been botched, although ADB did make him seem like a pussy when Lorgar was berating him, but meh, he's been overcompensating with Lorgar ever since people decried him as a pantywaist tool after First Heretic.

I'm just not sure why Magnus, after being resigned to his fate in A Thousand Sons, is still straddling the fence on whether he should join Horus several books later.

He backed away from that resignation when he stepped out of his pyramid to fight Russ. And again when he beseeched Tzeench for help.

At this point he is still conflicted between his guilt over breaking the Emperor's toys and his rage over his world being thrown to the Wolves. Lorgar pretty much calls him out on his ambivalence.

first crying about having to be a warrior

Something he never did.

, then crying about Monarchia

He never did that either.

then being led around by Erebus and Kor Phaeron

They might have thought he was doing that but by the time you read Betrayer you see that he obviously has a mind of his own.

Argel Tal into the Eye before daring to venture in himself.

He was told to do this, also he was the first primarch to do this at all.

If their were Cowards i'd name them, Alpharious for thinking that wiping out humanity to stop chaos would be a good idea or something the Emperor wanted he's the moral coward(assuming that was his intention he's way to complicated to know for sure), then Corax for fleeing the Night Haunter, then Guillman fleeing Angron and Lorgar and for failing to help Terra while he built his own Empire. Not sure if Lorgar cried but can you really fault anyone for shedding a tear in 40k, they are primarchs but that makes them even more aware of the grimdarkness all around. I have to say you can't call someone cowardly or weak who looks looks death in the eye and in so many word says "get on with it already".

 Omegus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
It is worth remembering that McNeil has botched the characters of both Horus and the Emperor, and doesn't seem to understand the HH timeline, so all of his contributions are questionable.

Whether Russ is guilty of anything, it is a RAW vs RAI argument. I can't wait to read Scars for this very reason.

How has McNeill botched the character of the Emperor?

You're so hung up on Outcast Dead.

What of ADB, who has botched Leman Russ and Magnus? And who generally doesn't seem to give a feth about other writers' precedents.

I can't help it, it was traumatizing.

I don't know if Magnus has been botched, although ADB did make him seem like a pussy when Lorgar was berating him, but meh, he's been overcompensating with Lorgar ever since people decried him as a pantywaist tool after First Heretic.

I loved the scene with Lorgar and Magnus.

Lorgar said nothing to Magnus that was not factually true and deservedly took him down a peg or two.

Dude's a primarch so he will be pretty damn clever compared to the average person, however he's quite blunt and easily read compared to most other primarchs. I'd like to think of him as quite thick naturally but an unconscious genius, with some of the best tactical knowledge ever.

Kaesoron wrote:

first crying about having to be a warrior

Something he never did.

, then crying about Monarchia

He never did that either.

then being led around by Erebus and Kor Phaeron

They might have thought he was doing that but by the time you read Betrayer you see that he obviously has a mind of his own.

Argel Tal into the Eye before daring to venture in himself.

He was told to do this, also he was the first primarch to do this at all.

Okay, he didn't exactly cry, but moping about, flogging yourself, and smearing ash on your face for days on end amounts to the same thing.

And yes, as Lorgar said himself: "I am not a general like my brothers. And I refuse that destiny. I will not blindly walk the same paths they already tread. I will never understand tactics and logistics with the effortless ease of Guilliman or the Lion. I will never possess the skill with a blade shown by Fulgrim or the Khan. Am I diminished because I recognise my faults? I do not believe so."

His discussions with Magnus also revolved around him seeking his role in the Emperor's vision, and it wasn't that of a warrior or commander.

The Daemon messengers told him, "If you don't trust us and are scared to venture in yourself, send your most trusted disciples in your stead." He later flat out apologized to Argel Tal for not having the courage to venture in himself. And yes, by the time of Betrayer he is a completely different person. His subsequent interactions with his mentor and Erebus show him as quite bitter/disillusioned, since he sees their raw ambition (rather than embracing Lorgar's "pure" ideology).

Magnus needs to likewise sack up, but if Battle of the Fangwank is any indication, he's still ambivalent thousands of years later.

 Omegus wrote:
He backed away from that resignation when he stepped out of his pyramid to fight Russ. And again when he beseeched Tzeench for help.

At this point he is still conflicted between his guilt over breaking the Emperor's toys and his rage over his world being thrown to the Wolves. Lorgar pretty much calls him out on his ambivalence.

He did both of those things while:

A. Having no expectation of surviving his fight with Russ, nor any real desire to. Tzeentch saving him as well seems to have just been another part of the Changer of Way's schemes that Magnus was not privy to you.

and

B. Deliberately holding off the Space Wolves for the sole purpose of saving his Legion. He originally wanted the Thousand Sons to not fight at all, but when they disobeyed his desires, he found himself forced to take action to save them.

He did not battle Leman Russ out of anger. When he appears to Ahriman, despite the power he is channeling, he feels only despair, horror, and anguish at what is occurring, yet his words make it clear that he knows it all has to happen.

A Thousand Sons, more than any other book in the series, follows the epic heroic mythologies that the series is based on. The lesson Magnus learns at the end is that no matter how much he learned, no matter how hard he fought, and no matter how powerful he grew, he could not fight Fate. The Greek and Norse mythologies of old held this to be the most pivotal and unassailable foundation of their myths.

Indeed, how does Magnus' final scene, where he ascends from his black tower on the Planet of the Sorcerers, end?

' “My sons,” said Magnus with weary resignation, “welcome to the Planet of the Sorcerers.” '

Magnus had resigned himself to his fate in A Thousand Sons. So I am not sure what the feth Magnus' problem is in Aurelian and Betrayer. It is really just what you said. ADB is using these scenes are padding in an attempt to overcompensate on Lorgar's behalf, in an attempt to defy many reader's first impressions of him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:


Magnus needs to likewise sack up, but if Battle of the Fangwank is any indication, he's still ambivalent thousands of years later.

It isn't that Magnus is ambivalent in Battle of the Fang. It's that he apparently is the only Primarch to suffer from senility.

Three different fething times in a single fight he is literally described as forgetting the power at his disposal. A power which has, on at least two separate occasions (Once by Lorgar, once by an Astropath), been described as "like the Emperor's".

Three different fething times in a single fight he is literally described as forgetting the power at his disposal. A power which has, on at least two separate occasions (Once by Lorgar, once by an Astropath), been described as "like the Emperor's

That is because most of these books are, at best, average pulp fiction. The rest are just terribly written and terribly plotted. Magnus forgets his powers because it's convenient to the plot that he do so, otherwise its just Magnus going around, owning things with god-like sorcery... and 40K can't have a villain that actually makes use of the powers at their disposal.

 Psienesis wrote:

Three different fething times in a single fight he is literally described as forgetting the power at his disposal. A power which has, on at least two separate occasions (Once by Lorgar, once by an Astropath), been described as "like the Emperor's

That is because most of these books are, at best, average pulp fiction. The rest are just terribly written and terribly plotted. Magnus forgets his powers because it's convenient to the plot that he do so, otherwise its just Magnus going around, owning things with god-like sorcery... and 40K can't have a villain that actually makes use of the powers at their disposal.

If that were to happen, the IOM would be screwed, and we can't have that now, can we?

I hate the way he is portrayed in Battle of the Fang. I mean at one stage he rips through 6 dreadnoughts at once but then suddenly he is loosing to a single dreadnought in a 1v1. 5 space wolfs are supposedly beating him in single combat. The most powerful Primarch!

It always feels like the writer believes Leman Russ is the more powerful of the two.

 Selym wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Three different fething times in a single fight he is literally described as forgetting the power at his disposal. A power which has, on at least two separate occasions (Once by Lorgar, once by an Astropath), been described as "like the Emperor's

That is because most of these books are, at best, average pulp fiction. The rest are just terribly written and terribly plotted. Magnus forgets his powers because it's convenient to the plot that he do so, otherwise its just Magnus going around, owning things with god-like sorcery... and 40K can't have a villain that actually makes use of the powers at their disposal.

If that were to happen, the IOM would be screwed, and we can't have that now, can we?

Indeed. And while I can let a little plot-armor slide, it's to be expected in pulpy fiction, after all, it's getting to the point now that it seems almost as if it's a self-parody. I'm expecting characters to start overtly breaking the fourth wall, like so:

"By the Throne! That was amazing! How can a man, even a Space Marine, do such things?!"
"Because this is a tale of my heroism, that's why!"

Without having read the previous 7 pages, which I am certain focus on the many contradicting details of fluff and the differences between mythical legend and novel interpretation, I submit that, perhaps, Leman Russ was both a brute and a hero - for with a warrior culture, these things depend very much on perspective, especially if inspected from our cozy warm rooms in real world Earth in the year 2013.

It's just something that immediately sprang to mind, as I vividly remember Andy Hoare describing the Sisters of Battle as both fanatical zealots and paragons of virtue, all depending on which world's standards you apply.