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You always start first, your mentioning SW in a derogatory manner in almost every thread is really annoying...
..

But this isn't really what's pissing me off , it's really "I'm right you are ALL wrong" in almost every third post....Like this :

 Void__Dragon wrote:
de·lu·sion
noun \di-ˈlü-zhən, dē-\

: a belief that is not true : a false idea

Leman Russ believed that:

A. Magnus was actively conspiring treachery against the Emperor.

B. That he fabricated Horus' heresy to further his own.

C. That he planted Kasper Hawser within the Space Wolves as a telepathic spy.

All of these beliefs are not true and largely unfounded, with only the first one being even kind of arguable.

Therefore, he was deluded. To argue otherwise is to be wrong.

 Manchu wrote:
A. The fact at issue requires no harder nor plainer a line than the decree at Nikaea.

Is it better to follow daddy's every issue faithfully to the letter, or to overrule them based on your own judgment for the greater good (Aka, the salvation of the Imperium)? Magnus believed his vision, and continued the practice of sorcery to validate his vision, and then to warn the Emperor (Though a good case could be made that the second was not necessary).

Thankfully the text agrees with me in concept, considering how prevalent the theme of how stupid the decree at Nikaea is (As shown in The Lion with Jonson's defying the decree to save his Legion and continue the fight against Chaos, similar occurs with the Ultramarine guy in the Garro audiobooks and with the Librarians within Fear to Tread. Guilliman also explicitly reminisces on the matter in Know No Fear).

B. Magnus had a vision that he interpreted to suit his own ends; that is, as a crisis to justify the use of his forbidden sorcery in his father's eyes given Nikaea. In terms of Magnus's own psyche, the treachery of Horus was therefore secondary to his own treachery. It is admittedly a complicated point. Who knows how many aeons it took Magnus himself to realize this, locked away in rueful meditation within the Eye?

There was no interpretation on Horus' heresy: The vision outright stated as much. Him also using it to validate his use of sorcery is a valid interpretation that I also share, but people (Nor Primarchs) are so simple. Did he consider that doing this could indeed validate his own beliefs? Probably. But I can not agree that it was secondary to his desire to both avert and then later warn about the Horus Heresy. Sadly, the text itself holds no real say on Magnus' personal thoughts regarding this specific point that I could recall, so it can not be proven (Though one must remember that his first step was not some show of power to validate his sorcery, but simply to avert the crisis entirely by reaching Horus in his time of need), that said, it detracts from my original point.

Leman Russ believed that Magnus made up Horus' Heresy to hide his own treachery. This is factually wrong, and Leman Russ' basis for the claim is solely his own bias. Hence, delusional.

C. Russ suspected Magnus of subtlety in betrayal. If anything, Russ's suspicions did not run deep enough in this regard. Russ's greatest mistake concerning Magnus was underestimating the extent to which the Cyclops was willfully blind to his own motives or, put another way, that Russ overestimated the depth of Magnus's capacity to understand the Powers with which he arrogantly trafficked. What Russ suspected as a matter of instinct or if you prefer superstition, Magnus could only learn by his own undoing: that Chaos does not requires one's consent or cooperation. In this light, Russ's suspicion of Hawser was reasonable. And once one realizes that those same agencies controlling Hawser were also tempting and manipulating Magnus, even the technicality of Russ's mistake loses meaning.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

Magnus dealing with powers beyond his understanding, though dangerous and indeed "bad", is not nearly similar as actively planting spies within a fellow Legion to use against him. The former act (The one Magnus actually did) was founded on far better intentions and by comparison brings upon far more devastating consequences, while the latter is not nearly as catastrophic in scope but would be founded on far more amoral motives. Magnus desperately reaching out for any who would help him save his Legion and then covering up the fact out of shame and fear of the consequences is not nearly similar to scheming and plotting against one's brothers and trying to subvert their Legion from the inside.

"Instinct" is not a valid reason for Russ' thoughts and actions. It would be one thing had he merely suspected it, but Leman Russ, ever the bearing of the white man's burden, simply assumed that he of course was entirely correct in his beliefs and any other viewpoint was misguided or outright wrong. How... Similar to Magnus.

On Chaos being the manipulators of both Magnus and Hawser, that is arbitrary, to be honest. I really can't find the relevance at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
You always start first, your mentioning SW in a derogatory manner in almost every thread is really annoying...
..

But his isn't really what's pissing me off , it's really "I'm right you are ALL wrong" in almost every third post....Like this :

Manchu thinks I am wrong. I choose not to hold it against him.

I do however hold that awful Lich avatar against him. Really? Couldn't find a better avatar for such a badass villain?

I don't always mention the Space Wolves in a derogatory manner though.

I also think you are wrong (to much anti SW bias is clouding your brain IMHO)...But I'm also open for your interpretation...I never once told you that you are completely wrong...And most important, telling "Most of the people are WRONG" is not cool (like you did with "fear to thread" when we

have told you that book was fething - boring like hell)...

Hawser can be a double spy, why not ? I quoted you a part of a book where he openly tells he has puppets in SW...Btw, this theory is valid as yours (your respond to that quote)...

You can't hit some pov with a hammer of " I'm right ,you are wrong" beacuse it isn't to your liking...Remember "Fear to thread" ?

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:

godking wrote:

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Angron lost that battle. He was just too angry to see it.

Angron won the duel with Russ

Russ proved that Angron does not care about his Legion and His Legion does not care about him.

Angron verbally destroyed Russ before blades where drawn. He also verbally and physically handed Guilliman his ass on Nuceria. He held his own verbally against Lorgar.

Angron is not close to being stupid and when not being bothered by the nails can verbally defend his views against anyone.

Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor kool aid and saw the emperor for what he was.

Russ the supposed more levelheaded of the two was provoked into striking first.

Russ barely won the battle but his hamfisted i know everything better way was the wrong way to do it.

Almost every other Primarch could have tuaght the lesson better.

Woot he won a duel when his foe wasn't going at full. Woop woop he clearly better for winning a fight when his foe took a dive! in those cases quick everyone find every instance in sports that this had happened and give the one who won a giant medal! Jokes aside the fight would have gone differently as a whole. Completely different ball game if Russ was out for the kill. Also before Angron could have killed Russ his legion would have put Angron down because they were there for their primarch unlike Angron's. Yeah Angron won in a battle of words, so what when Russ and his legion won the day ultimately. Tactically the wolves won. Because Angron would have fell, then the rest of his legion would follow. The army general was isolated and removed. The Wolves has grasped the World Eater's by their head(or balls if you wish) I'm not dissing Angron's ability to win an argument or his prowess as a CC monster. Angron is still probably one of the best in martial combat whose skill and ferocity is something to be respected and feared. But the fact he didn't understand the strength in a legion, or the power a Primarch can have when he has his legion at his back is what would have led to Angron falling that day. Point is Angron lost the battle but his rage didn't allow him to see how. He didn't see that alone he would fall against a primarch whose legion were fully ready to fight anyone and anything to protect him and stand by him and vise versa.

Also you honestly think the same thing wouldn't have happened if another Primarch had tried this? Angron would have still got into a fight. The only difference being who went there and what outcome would have happened. Either same exact result with Russ. Or World Eaters getting their numbers cut down by a lot. World Eaters getting wiped out because there was no other choice due to the moment. Or the other legion being destroyed by the World Eaters or simply being left Primarchless. Or they run away because of the World Eaters overwhelming them.

Russ supposed lesson in winning a tactical victory would only have really meant something IF Angron actually cared about his legion or even his own life. Angron in his own mind died at Deshea he never gave a damn about his own life or that of his legion. Angron never believed in the emperor or his vision of every primarch traitor or loyalist Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor's kool aid.

If someone never cared in the first place any lesson is meaningless.

^ This is true...Lesson has no value there...Russ should have killed him, imagine how much the imperium would be thankful later...But then again SW and Russ would probably be purged from galaxy....

 DarthMarko wrote:
I also think you are wrong (to much anti SW bias is clouding your brain IMHO)...

Wrong about what specifically?

Also, my dislike for the Space Wolves is overstated. I merely argue against them because people generally praise them far more often than they detract them, so assuming a fairly equal ratio of posts I agree with vs. posts I don't, I would more often have pro-SW posts to argue against.

You'll note that I was the first guy to defend the Space Wolves and Leman Russ in particular when some silly guy went on a hate rant about how Leman Russ was one of the weakest and most incompetent of the Primarchs in some thread.

But I'm also open for your interpretation...I never once told you that you are completely wrong...And most important, telling "Most of the people are WRONG" is not cool (like you did with "fear to thread" when we

have told you that book was fething - boring like hell)...

I was joking, lol.

Kind of.

Hawser can be a double spy, why not ? I quoted you a part of a book where he openly tells he has puppets in SW...Btw, this theory is valid as yours (your respond to that quote)...

Magnus must have enlisted some pretty terrible spies then, considering how little he knew of the Space Wolves or their Legion.

Hawser being a spy though? I can't buy that, considering Magnus had no idea the Wolves were coming until Tzeentch told him, and were that the case, he wouldn't have needed to astral project himself and Amon to Leman's bridge to see the incoming Wolves. He could have looked through Hawser. I also can't imagine Magnus actually willingly sacrificing his sons when there was a chance they could all be spared. Were Hawser a spy for Magnus, Maggy would have received Russ' ultimatum, that of course fell on deaf ears.

IIRC the daemon in Hawser actually explicitly notes that Magnus had nothing to do with Hawser's predicament.

You can't hit some pov with a hammer of " I'm right ,you are wrong" beacuse it isn't to your liking...Remember "Fear to thread" ?

Fear to Tread was better than almost every book written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Graham McNeill, or Dan Abnett.

You are kidding with the last one, right ?

Not even, IMO Fear to Tread is up there with some of the best they have done (I'll at least be fair and note I haven't read the Night Lords trilogy). Probably IMO not as good as the Eisenhorn trilogy on a whole, nor A Thousand Sons, or IMO Helsreach, but I really liked it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Not even, IMO Fear to Tread is up there with some of the best they have done (I'll at least be fair and note I haven't read the Night Lords trilogy). Probably IMO not as good as the Eisenhorn trilogy on a whole, nor A Thousand Sons, or IMO Helsreach, but I really liked it.

Fear to tread was a decent read and no mistake. Not on a par with Galaxy in Flames or Thousand sons (Maby cuz I'm a SoH fanboy) but still pretty damn good.

Wtf is SoH?

Sons of Horus

I see him as neither, more a tool, iirc the SWs were created to be a "check" against any enemy that the Emperor couldnt subdue - along with Angrons crew.
When Magnus went "rogue" the Sws were arguably the only SM Chapter that could reign in another chapter. Thats why the Emp created them?

what always got me the most about space wolves was rune preists. the scenes where basicly the space wolves claim how dangerous Psykers are but how rune preists are ok cause "ohh they just get their powers from fenris" I found myself wishing by the end Magnus would hit LR with a "clue by four"
Honestly I think LR's deliberate ignorance in that matter (the only way a Primarch wouldn't realize RPs are psykers is if he was willfully ignorant) shoulda been called out on by the emperor himself. and I'd argue that RPs are quite possiably the most dangerous psykers in the Imperium because they don't fully realize where their power comes from

All soldiers need more brute than hero in reality.....

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Manchu thinks I am wrong. I choose not to hold it against him.

And back atcha. There are two paths of Magnus fandom: pretending he was right and understanding he was wrong. Both are valid.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I do however hold that awful Lich avatar against him. Really? Couldn't find a better avatar for such a badass villain?

Make me a better one and I will use it!

BrianDavion wrote:
what always got me the most about space wolves was rune preists. the scenes where basicly the space wolves claim how dangerous Psykers are but how rune preists are ok cause "ohh they just get their powers from fenris" I found myself wishing by the end Magnus would hit LR with a "clue by four"
Honestly I think LR's deliberate ignorance in that matter (the only way a Primarch wouldn't realize RPs are psykers is if he was willfully ignorant) shoulda been called out on by the emperor himself. and I'd argue that RPs are quite possiably the most dangerous psykers in the Imperium because they don't fully realize where their power comes from

When you hear "Power from Fenris". It is the Fenrisian culture not the planet that is being addressed. Prospero Burns shows beyond any dought that the Rune Priest know they are psykers. The difference is how they go about using their psychic powers. That is not to say that there powers are any different then Librarians. It is just to say that their training is very different.

Russ saw the training that Librarians recieved as turning them into sorcerors. Considering that even Magnus agreed with Russ in the end. It is not that unreasonable of a belief.

I don't get all of the hate for Russ following orders pre-heresy. ALL of the primarchs followed orders without question. To question was heresy. In the first 2 HH books, we see what happened to those who questioned things. How bat gak insane angry someone would get if you questioned something.

Heaven forbid you ever mention the end of the crusade, you will get curb stomped in a bar for mentioning that a planet will revolt.


The Wolves came off as sort of a Navy Seal type, they are well balanced and know how to use the tools available to them. Primarch vs Primarch 1v1 fights come off as school yard "My primarch is better than your primarch" arguments. We should all know that the Primarch doesnt matter as much as the legion they represent, it is how they lead that legion that matters.
Now the thread is somehow on the topic of Rune Priests.

I view Leman Russ as a Hero wearing brutes clothing. None of the primarchs are dull enough to be ignorant of their own image.

Except Rogal Dorn.

What do you mean?

Well hes both i spose. He thinks hes a brute, but pretends hes a hero. Or vice versa.
What i will say seeing as primarchs seem to see and move in bullet time, alla max payne. Russ would not have won, he might have claimed a draw... If they manged to kill Angron. Doubtful. So i would say Angron held back, the wolf was just outclassed. Yeah yeah we know what Lorgar said, but he was a huge pussy, so what he knows about combat is irrelevant

Why is it nobody seems to think that Russ can genuinely be both.

A true brute, and a true hero.

Misguided maybe, but aren't most brutes in these kinds of settings?

 Selym wrote:
Why is it nobody seems to think that Russ can genuinely be both.

That actually seems to be the majority opinion if you read the thread.

 Manchu wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Why is it nobody seems to think that Russ can genuinely be both.

That actually seems to be the majority opinion if you read the thread.

I read those as: "He's one, but pretends to be the other"

the ancient wrote:
He thinks hes a brute, but pretends hes a hero. Or vice versa.

the ancient wrote:
Well hes both i spose. He thinks hes a brute, but pretends hes a hero. Or vice versa.
What i will say seeing as primarchs seem to see and move in bullet time, alla max payne. Russ would not have won, he might have claimed a draw... If they manged to kill Angron. Doubtful. So i would say Angron held back, the wolf was just outclassed. Yeah yeah we know what Lorgar said, but he was a huge pussy, so what he knows about combat is irrelevant

You know nothing of Russ and nothing of Angron if you think that. Since when would Angron EVER hold back? Holding back is not in the World Eater vocabulary. Also Angron has raw strength but the Butchers Nails while yes grants him an edge, it is also his draw back. A wolf who has been backed into a corner is a frightful display...if the World Eaters were on Big E's kill list and he told Russ to end Angron...well the World Eaters would be joining the II and XI legions(I think those are the ones...) then...Never underestimate the Wolves of Fenris...That has been the downfall of so many. Angron and his sons are powerful...But not unbeatable.

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:

the ancient wrote:
Well hes both i spose. He thinks hes a brute, but pretends hes a hero. Or vice versa.
What i will say seeing as primarchs seem to see and move in bullet time, alla max payne. Russ would not have won, he might have claimed a draw... If they manged to kill Angron. Doubtful. So i would say Angron held back, the wolf was just outclassed. Yeah yeah we know what Lorgar said, but he was a huge pussy, so what he knows about combat is irrelevant

You know nothing of Russ and nothing of Angron if you think that. Since when would Angron EVER hold back? Holding back is not in the World Eater vocabulary. Also Angron has raw strength but the Butchers Nails while yes grants him an edge, it is also his draw back. A wolf who has been backed into a corner is a frightful display...if the World Eaters were on Big E's kill list and he told Russ to end Angron...well the World Eaters would be joining the II and XI legions(I think those are the ones...) then...Never underestimate the Wolves of Fenris...That has been the downfall of so many. Angron and his sons are powerful...But not unbeatable.

And yet the world eaters are a larger legion. Angron is stronger than Russ. Also that's rats who get frenzied when backed into a corner not wolves.

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:

the ancient wrote:
Well hes both i spose. He thinks hes a brute, but pretends hes a hero. Or vice versa.
What i will say seeing as primarchs seem to see and move in bullet time, alla max payne. Russ would not have won, he might have claimed a draw... If they manged to kill Angron. Doubtful. So i would say Angron held back, the wolf was just outclassed. Yeah yeah we know what Lorgar said, but he was a huge pussy, so what he knows about combat is irrelevant

You know nothing of Russ and nothing of Angron if you think that. Since when would Angron EVER hold back? Holding back is not in the World Eater vocabulary. Also Angron has raw strength but the Butchers Nails while yes grants him an edge, it is also his draw back. A wolf who has been backed into a corner is a frightful display...if the World Eaters were on Big E's kill list and he told Russ to end Angron...well the World Eaters would be joining the II and XI legions(I think those are the ones...) then...Never underestimate the Wolves of Fenris...That has been the downfall of so many. Angron and his sons are powerful...But not unbeatable.

Gonna take a slight disagreement there.

The War Hounds (World Eaters original name, and far cooler imo) were also used for the purpose of destroying rogue legions (this was hinted at in one of the World Eaters POV bits). The Wolves and Dogs are incredibly similar, it's just that the Hounds bit back as it were, due to Angron's disillusionment with E-Dawg.

Wolves have cunning, whereas World Eaters beat them ferocity wise 9/10.
Who knows what would have happened if they'd ever fully fought, but if Armageddon was anything to go by, it wouldn't be pretty.

Yet in the fluff around the first war on Armageddon it states that the Wolves meet the World Eaters (Post joining Khorne) with equal furry. So you may want to rethink your 9/10 statement.

 Stonerhino wrote:
Yet in the fluff around the first war on Armageddon it states that the Wolves meet the World Eaters (Post joining Khorne) with equal furry. So you may want to rethink your 9/10 statement.

thats one mention. I can't even be bothered to reference the number of times the world eaters are said to be the most ferocious legion in the HH series (oddly followed by Sons of Horus).

That furry may have had something to do with their wolf fetish.

On a non pedantic note, It's kinda obvious in fluff and crunch sense that Eaters are the angry legion, Wolves don't throw super human berserkers at everything and anything in pure hate.
World Eaters do.

And "with equal fury" is one of those statement so commonly used by the fluff writers, so I wouldn't think you could use it to overturn set in stone lore.

Hold a poll, "who's the more ferocious/Angry legion?" And I'm fairly certain the Nommers will come out top. Their Primarch's name is Angron for crying out loud! (not the most imaginative name, but still)
It even said in the old codex (not sure which ed) that "sons of russ don't fight with blind ferocity that you may see in a rabid dog, but with the cunning and(some adjective I've forgot) of a pack of wolves" Or something to that effect.

For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
Russ was a great Primarch, a simple man that followed the Allfathers orders because he gave his word he would do so and he is a man of his word.