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Cuz he got his ass handed to him doesn't make him dumb. Horus was above genius level intelligence and he got munched...

Angron lost that battle. He was just too angry to see it.

Leman Russ is both a brute and a hero, he was never meant to become the Emperors executioner.

To quote Betrayer
"We are not the tame, reliable pets the Emperor wanted.The Wolves obey, when we would not. The wolves could be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butchers Nails buzzing in the back of their skull.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard it is a mystery why the name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behav that way, only a dog does."

Russ was meant to be anti psyker, just like how Lorgar was a preacher and Magnus a psyker. Hence all his wards, talismans and fetish that adorn his amour and that of his legion. However due to Angrons implants and his decreasing ability to think outside of butchering, Russ had to stop being an anti pysker primarch and become the Emperors blade which is what Angron was used as, even before the finding of Angron, unconquered planets often surrendered when hearing the world eaters were the ones coming to "enlighten" them . He tried to make big ol papa proud by doing everything that was asked of him (including killing a primarch, potentially) and then would go back to papa for his next task.

He was a brute for letting his prejudice and arrogance get the better of him and to royally destroy Ticza and the thousand sons, deep down he planned to annihilate them one way or another and even if horus didn't manipulate him in to doing so

I kinda like Russ but hate his annoyingfantasydwarflke space wolves. The way he is portrayed in thousand sons is pretty cool but I just never feel that his legion fits the role of executioners. They are nowhere near the most powerful legion. I would honestly say that Iron warriors would be better. They are the best Seige legion so they would have the best chance of breaking though a legions homeworld defence. There style is a grinding, grim efficiency rather than the passion of the space wolves. They have nothing the enemy can feed off, they have no ferocity or anger. Just grim, blank efficiency.

Russ shows a surprising amount of introspection in the books I've read.

He has his warriors appear to be barbarians to get people to underestimate them.

His warriors will do what is needed to win, but will consider the consequences prior. As when they dropped the colony on the cyborg world, they had planned carefully not only the battle, but the political aftermath. They even got everyone's buy in before the drop just so they could not be blamed for "going rogue". Angron wouldn't have cared.

He didn't want to destroy Prospero. He thought he had given Magnus an ultimatum which would allow them to avoid bloodshed and would have put both at Earth prior to Horus's arrival.

His conflict with the Lion is portrayed alternatively as him being a dumb jock or the Lion screwing him over. Yet the Lion in the Heresy novels is shown to be shifty and conniving.

Russ gets stuck cleaning up the Emperor's messes. Including wiping out at least one of his brothers and associated legion. Yet he never brags about "hey guys remember the time I stomped XII?" He really could have trash talked Angron beforehand, or just taken him out, rather then try and reason with him.

All this from a guy who was raised by wolves and vikings.

He might as well have been talking to a brick wall for all the good his "ultimatum" did both him and Magnus.

It was his assumption (One that he never bothered to validate because "Hurr im russ im always rite", strange how similar Magnus and he are in that regard) that Magnus planted a psychic spy in his ranks. Which is of course entirely false. It of course opens up the common Heresy plot hole which is: Why couldn't this superhumanly intelligent demigod just have gotten his father to scan Hawser's mind to see the origin of the spy? The Emperor could have obliterated the Daemon within KAsper with a glance. But of course it never occurred to Leman Russ to do that, because he had already decided that his assumption was correct, and furthermore, Leman Russ has shown that he is in fact far more treacherous than one would think, knowingly and hypocritically retaining psykers within his legion and generally acting as a busybody who thinks he knows what is best for everyone else.

Leman Russ could not have just "taken Angron out". In martial combat he was outclassed, and while he might have been able to dispose of Angron the way the scene was (poorly) written, it is asinine to believe that doing so without the Emperor's consent would be so easily tolerated IMO.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He might as well have been talking to a brick wall for all the good his "ultimatum" did both him and Magnus.

It was his assumption (One that he never bothered to validate because "Hurr im russ im always rite", strange how similar Magnus and he are in that regard) that Magnus planted a psychic spy in his ranks. Which is of course entirely false. It of course opens up the common Heresy plot hole which is: Why couldn't this superhumanly intelligent demigod just have gotten his father to scan Hawser's mind to see the origin of the spy? The Emperor could have obliterated the Daemon within KAsper with a glance. But of course it never occurred to Leman Russ to do that, because he had already decided that his assumption was correct, and furthermore, Leman Russ has shown that he is in fact far more treacherous than one would think, knowingly and hypocritically retaining psykers within his legion and generally acting as a busybody who thinks he knows what is best for everyone else.

Leman Russ could not have just "taken Angron out". In martial combat he was outclassed, and while he might have been able to dispose of Angron the way the scene was (poorly) written, it is asinine to believe that doing so without the Emperor's consent would be so easily tolerated IMO.

exalted. This guy knows what he's talking about,

Like author comfirmed , that scene with Angron was a Russ's personal demonstration of what can be achived through tactical objective...Primarch dueling was totaly irrelevant to that scene...If the two of them were in the arena (going all out) I'm sure the fight would have been completely different....

Also Angron openly tells that Russ wasn't going for the kill (big STUPID mistake) while Angron doesn't give a gak.....Also IMHO if Russ returned with Angron's head that day he and his legion would have been santioned.....

About the loyality here is what Guiliman thought of Russ

Darth you strike again brother. Pointing out a very good point! The evidence is there. I'll openly admit that below Russ my top 5 primarchs go:

2.Sangiunius
3.Angron
4.Lion
5.Night Lords one whose name escaped me...dang it!


I like Angron. But I love Russ. I know Russ has a lot of faults. Heck all the Primarchs do. it's what makes them likable and at times easy to relate to. Angron while yes a monster in CC...his flaws are something Russ would have been able to exploit in a serious fight. Heck he got Angron into check mate in their battle. if Russ' routine has guys capable of fighting a Daemon Primarch(Looking at you Bjorn. in a dreadnought, fought Magnus in Battle of The Fang) then they could have taken Angron down.

if Russ went for the kill...well...The body count would have been greater with those two going buck wild. Hell a planet probably would have been gone. it'd be like a Goku vs Vegeta thing basically. They would need an entire planet for their big battle...And oh how epicly brilliant that battle would have been....

I still think 1 vs 1, with no advantages for either side, Angron would kill Russ.

Russ is too clever to face Angron without an advantage though.

IMHO 1vs1 in the arena vs any primarch ( with just weapons ) Angron (with nails) always has the advantage...But on the battlefield or a wild open area Russ would always come on top...

I think this is pretty much established...But even ADB said that this is sterotype which doesn't hold water...There is no certain scenario where this could be the case, beacuse both of them are brutal beasts and scenario totally depends on which one is pissed more....

For instance if Angron was between Russ and corpse Emperor I would put my money on Russ 100% (WD story)....Cold minded fight and without any motivation...Angron, 7/10 IMO...

P.S. Horus, Sanguinius, Lion and even Magnus would outsmart him too...I mean Magnus coud probably trap his dumb arse into fanthom zone , Horus would trick him, and Lion would use Corswain as backstaber, he,he,he...

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Angron lost that battle. He was just too angry to see it.

Angron won the duel with Russ

Russ proved that Angron does not care about his Legion and His Legion does not care about him.

Angron verbally destroyed Russ before blades where drawn. He also verbally and physically handed Guilliman his ass on Nuceria. He held his own verbally against Lorgar.

Angron is not close to being stupid and when not being bothered by the nails can verbally defend his views against anyone.

Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor kool aid and saw the emperor for what he was.

Russ the supposed more levelheaded of the two was provoked into striking first.

Russ barely won the battle but his hamfisted i know everything better way was the wrong way to do it.

Almost every other Primarch could have tuaght the lesson better.

godking wrote:

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Angron lost that battle. He was just too angry to see it.

Angron won the duel with Russ

Russ proved that Angron does not care about his Legion and His Legion does not care about him.

Angron verbally destroyed Russ before blades where drawn. He also verbally and physically handed Guilliman his ass on Nuceria. He held his own verbally against Lorgar.

Angron is not close to being stupid and when not being bothered by the nails can verbally defend his views against anyone.

Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor kool aid and saw the emperor for what he was.

Russ the supposed more levelheaded of the two was provoked into striking first.

Russ barely won the battle but his hamfisted i know everything better way was the wrong way to do it.

Almost every other Primarch could have tuaght the lesson better.

except Dorn. He would have just died...

godking wrote:

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Angron lost that battle. He was just too angry to see it.

Angron won the duel with Russ

Russ proved that Angron does not care about his Legion and His Legion does not care about him.

Angron verbally destroyed Russ before blades where drawn. He also verbally and physically handed Guilliman his ass on Nuceria. He held his own verbally against Lorgar.

Angron is not close to being stupid and when not being bothered by the nails can verbally defend his views against anyone.

Angron was the only one who never drank the emperor kool aid and saw the emperor for what he was.

Russ the supposed more levelheaded of the two was provoked into striking first.

Russ barely won the battle but his hamfisted i know everything better way was the wrong way to do it.

Almost every other Primarch could have tuaght the lesson better.

Woot he won a duel when his foe wasn't going at full. Woop woop he clearly better for winning a fight when his foe took a dive! in those cases quick everyone find every instance in sports that this had happened and give the one who won a giant medal! Jokes aside the fight would have gone differently as a whole. Completely different ball game if Russ was out for the kill. Also before Angron could have killed Russ his legion would have put Angron down because they were there for their primarch unlike Angron's. Yeah Angron won in a battle of words, so what when Russ and his legion won the day ultimately. Tactically the wolves won. Because Angron would have fell, then the rest of his legion would follow. The army general was isolated and removed. The Wolves has grasped the World Eater's by their head(or balls if you wish) I'm not dissing Angron's ability to win an argument or his prowess as a CC monster. Angron is still probably one of the best in martial combat whose skill and ferocity is something to be respected and feared. But the fact he didn't understand the strength in a legion, or the power a Primarch can have when he has his legion at his back is what would have led to Angron falling that day. Point is Angron lost the battle but his rage didn't allow him to see how. He didn't see that alone he would fall against a primarch whose legion were fully ready to fight anyone and anything to protect him and stand by him and vise versa.

Also you honestly think the same thing wouldn't have happened if another Primarch had tried this? Angron would have still got into a fight. The only difference being who went there and what outcome would have happened. Either same exact result with Russ. Or World Eaters getting their numbers cut down by a lot. World Eaters getting wiped out because there was no other choice due to the moment. Or the other legion being destroyed by the World Eaters or simply being left Primarchless. Or they run away because of the World Eaters overwhelming them.

BaconUprising wrote:
Cuz he got his ass handed to him doesn't make him dumb. Horus was above genius level intelligence and he got munched...

Actually, Russ got his ass handed to him in more than just a physical way, in their discussion Angron came across as the more lucid and insightful one. I know ABD intended for the passage to be read as Russ being in the right and trying to teach Angron a lesson, but it fails in that regard because every point Angron made was spot on. Angron knew he wasn't fighting a proper little war like a proper little soldier... that was the whole point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tomball0706 wrote:
Leman Russ is both a brute and a hero, he was never meant to become the Emperors executioner.

To quote Betrayer
"We are not the tame, reliable pets the Emperor wanted.The Wolves obey, when we would not. The wolves could be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butchers Nails buzzing in the back of their skull.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard it is a mystery why the name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behav that way, only a dog does."

Russ was meant to be anti psyker, just like how Lorgar was a preacher and Magnus a psyker. Hence all his wards, talismans and fetish that adorn his amour and that of his legion. However due to Angrons implants and his decreasing ability to think outside of butchering, Russ had to stop being an anti pysker primarch and become the Emperors blade which is what Angron was used as, even before the finding of Angron, unconquered planets often surrendered when hearing the world eaters were the ones coming to "enlighten" them . He tried to make big ol papa proud by doing everything that was asked of him (including killing a primarch, potentially) and then would go back to papa for his next task.

He was a brute for letting his prejudice and arrogance get the better of him and to royally destroy Ticza and the thousand sons, deep down he planned to annihilate them one way or another and even if horus didn't manipulate him in to doing so

This is all nonsense. Russ took the title of Executioner upon himself, it was not official in any way and many Primarchs scoffed at the idea. There were no World Eaters before they found Angron, they were the War Hounds, and while brutal (like all Astartes, really), the reminiscing by the last few surviving War Hounds paints them as a disciplined force of soldiers like any other who lament what has become of their once noble Legion. Like Kharn said to Argel Tal, the War Hounds adopted the nails and launched themselves with abandon into battle in an attempt to become closer to their broken Primarch.

That said, I agree that people are being too lenient with Russ by just blaming Horus. We don't know exactly how that "manipulation" went down, Russ was ready to go to war with Magnus and the Thousand Sons on Shrike well before Nikea, and a different version of events has him dismissing Magnus' warning and actively convincing the Emperor that every man, woman and child on Prospero must die. Furthermore, it's telling that when all was said and done and Russ discovered the deception that led him to Prospero, he wasn't regretful about just massacring a planet of loyal Imperial citizens, but rather quickly moved to remove the only non-SW to know what had transpired.

I think russ is just a huge dicknoggin, I can understand his motivation and why he does what he does...but it's just...Urgh.

30k wolves are my most hated chapter.

...not at all because they killed Kalophis and Phosis T'kar...

But seriously, I see him as an arrogant butcher who never questions what he's been told and is scared of learning new things.

 Inky wrote:
I think russ is just a huge dicknoggin, I can understand his motivation and why he does what he does...but it's just...Urgh.

30k wolves are my most hated chapter.

...not at all because they killed Kalophis and Phosis T'kar...

But seriously, I see him as an arrogant butcher who never questions what he's been told and is scared of learning new things.

I hate them as well but I must correct you. They didn't kill Khapolis or Phosis T'kar. Khaopolis destroyed himself when he moved his Titan form into close proximity of a warp rift and then quickly attempted to disconnect from his psychic tutelary. The psychic backlash killed him. Phosis T'kar was infant killed by valdor (who he let kill him). On another note Phosis T'kar was the most badass marine ever! He butchered his way through custodes, sisters of silence and Russ' elite bodyguards with impunity. I actually think he would have killed Russ had he not realised he had mutated.

BaconUprising wrote:

 Inky wrote:
I think russ is just a huge dicknoggin, I can understand his motivation and why he does what he does...but it's just...Urgh.

30k wolves are my most hated chapter.

...not at all because they killed Kalophis and Phosis T'kar...

But seriously, I see him as an arrogant butcher who never questions what he's been told and is scared of learning new things.

I hate them as well but I must correct you. They didn't kill Khapolis or Phosis T'kar. Khaopolis destroyed himself when he moved his Titan form into close proximity of a warp rift and then quickly attempted to disconnect from his psychic tutelary. The psychic backlash killed him. Phosis T'kar was infant killed by valdor (who he let kill him). On another note Phosis T'kar was the most badass marine ever! He butchered his way through custodes, sisters of silence and Russ' elite bodyguards with impunity. I actually think he would have killed Russ had he not realised he had mutated.

I know, but they wouldn't have died if it weren't for Russ' irrational hatred of all things he doesn't understand/ agree with!
And T'kar was a legend, I'm very interested in making a standalone mini for him. He just did not give a feth!

Agreed! The art for him looks fantastic!

Leman Russ was a hero because he loyally served the Emperor as a matter of conscience.

Traitors will of course insist he was delusional ... but that is why they are traitors, that is their own delusion.

de·lu·sion
noun \di-ˈlü-zhən, dē-\

: a belief that is not true : a false idea

Leman Russ believed that:

A. Magnus was actively conspiring treachery against the Emperor.

B. That he fabricated Horus' heresy to further his own.

C. That he planted Kasper Hawser within the Space Wolves as a telepathic spy.

All of these beliefs are not true and largely unfounded, with only the first one being even kind of arguable.

Therefore, he was deluded. To argue otherwise is to be wrong.

I think the Lion and the Wolf story describes Russ fairly well. He is quick to anger and quick to laugh. he also follows his emotions much more than most other primarchs. I would say he is a brute with some heroic feats, mostly due to him being a primarch instead of being an exceptional person.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Leman Russ believed that:

A. Magnus was actively conspiring treachery against the Emperor.

B. That he fabricated Horus' heresy to further his own.

C. That he planted Kasper Hawser within the Space Wolves as a telepathic spy.

A. was true, B. only appears false to an overly literal mind in superficial analysis of events and motives (or in denial), and C. consists of a detail that could easily have been true.

 Manchu wrote:
A. was true,

Only with the most hard-lined and "overly literal" interpretation of the event.

B. only appears false to an overly literal mind in superficial analysis of events and motives,

Well no, B is evidently empirically false. He did not fabricate Horus' heresy, he:

a. Received a vision of it

and

b. Just in case, took steps to stop and, in the process, confirm it.

and C. consists of a detail that could easily have been true.

I guess in the same way "The Emperor often secretly has Eldar children brought to his bed-chamber to be raped and eaten" could also have easily been true.

Could Magnus have done it? Absolutely. But he gave Leman Russ no reason to believe that he would stoop to such underhanded and dishonorable tactics against his own brother. Of course, ironically, Leman Russ is all too willing to engage in such frankly insulting tactics against his brothers. As shown with his actions against Magnus and Sanguinius.

So yeah, Leman Russ was delusional, and frankly something of a huge donkey-cave.

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:

godking wrote:

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Angron lost that battle. He was just too angry to see it.

Woot he won a duel when his foe wasn't going at full. Woop woop he clearly better for winning a fight when his foe took a dive! in those cases quick everyone find every instance in sports that this had happened and give the one who won a giant medal! Jokes aside the fight would have gone differently as a whole. Completely different ball game if Russ was out for the kill. Also before Angron could have killed Russ his legion would have put Angron down because they were there for their primarch unlike Angron's. Yeah Angron won in a battle of words, so what when Russ and his legion won the day ultimately. Tactically the wolves won. Because Angron would have fell, then the rest of his legion would follow. The army general was isolated and removed. The Wolves has grasped the World Eater's by their head(or balls if you wish) I'm not dissing Angron's ability to win an argument or his prowess as a CC monster. Angron is still probably one of the best in martial combat whose skill and ferocity is something to be respected and feared. But the fact he didn't understand the strength in a legion, or the power a Primarch can have when he has his legion at his back is what would have led to Angron falling that day. Point is Angron lost the battle but his rage didn't allow him to see how. He didn't see that alone he would fall against a primarch whose legion were fully ready to fight anyone and anything to protect him and stand by him and vise versa.

Also you honestly think the same thing wouldn't have happened if another Primarch had tried this? Angron would have still got into a fight. The only difference being who went there and what outcome would have happened. Either same exact result with Russ. Or World Eaters getting their numbers cut down by a lot. World Eaters getting wiped out because there was no other choice due to the moment. Or the other legion being destroyed by the World Eaters or simply being left Primarchless. Or they run away because of the World Eaters overwhelming them.

Ignore the haters, it's like talking to a brick wall...Personaly, I think Magnus was a duche and a weakest, dumbest primarch (despite him calling himself the smartest and having a cool legion) and I consider Angron much more honest and cool...He infact had Russ verbaly....

But there's a difference - his brain is toast and his legion are totally ineffective against taking a tactical objective....

Wolves are on the other hand WE with brain....They can go Vikingly bezerk (check wulfen) but not until the situation is assessed, like Bran does it....Like he preys, lurks,sniffs and then he goes with his pack and shreds in wawe of brutality...Sombody said, Russ is a scalpel while Angron is a cleaver...Wolves are mini tactial nukes, while WE are one giant nuke...

 Manchu wrote:
Leman Russ was a hero because he loyally served the Emperor as a matter of conscience.

Traitors will of course insist he was delusional ... but that is why they are traitors, that is their own delusion.

Pretty simple , yes

A. The fact at issue requires no harder nor plainer a line than the decree at Nikaea.

B. Magnus had a vision that he interpreted to suit his own ends; that is, as a crisis to justify the use of his forbidden sorcery in his father's eyes given Nikaea. In terms of Magnus's own psyche, the treachery of Horus was therefore secondary to his own treachery. It is admittedly a complicated point. Who knows how many aeons it took Magnus himself to realize this, locked away in rueful meditation within the Eye?

C. Russ suspected Magnus of subtlety in betrayal. If anything, Russ's suspicions did not run deep enough in this regard. Russ's greatest mistake concerning Magnus was underestimating the extent to which the Cyclops was willfully blind to his own motives or, put another way, that Russ overestimated the depth of Magnus's capacity to understand the Powers with which he arrogantly trafficked. What Russ suspected as a matter of instinct or if you prefer superstition, Magnus could only learn by his own undoing: that Chaos does not requires one's consent or cooperation. In this light, Russ's suspicion of Hawser was reasonable. And once one realizes that those same agencies controlling Hawser were also tempting and manipulating Magnus, even the technicality of Russ's mistake loses meaning.

Also Magnus spied SW...that is certain....

 DarthMarko wrote:
Personaly, I think Magnus was a duche and a weakest, dumbest primarch

Magnus was incredibly powerful and intelligent. The trouble is, it's no coincidence he has but one eye. Whether literally in the setting or figuratively as part of his characterization, evoking for example the myth of Odin, Magnus gave away vision to gain vision. Everything he gained was negated by what he gave to get it. Such is Tzeentch's way.

 Manchu wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Personaly, I think Magnus was a duche and a weakest, dumbest primarch

Magnus was incredibly powerful and intelligent. The trouble is, it's no coincidence he has but one eye. Whether literally in the setting or figuratively as part of his characterization, evoking for example the myth of Odin, Magnus gave away vision to gain vision. Everything he gained was negated by what he gave to get it. Such is Tzeentch's way.

Agree, literary and figuratively speaking, he really had one eye...

I'm curious...What do you think would happened if burning Prospero never occured, and Magnus and Russ never went at each other ?...

Tzeench is there - always, he has a flesh change in his pocket, remember + he has a portion of Magnus power

 DarthMarko wrote:

Ignore the haters, it's like talking to a brick wall...Personaly, I think Magnus was a duche and a weakest, dumbest primarch (despite him calling himself the smartest and having a cool legion) and I consider Angron much more honest and cool...He infact had Russ verbaly...

Strange how much your tune has changed regarding Magnus. It is doubly ironic how you decry me as a "hater" while posting ill-thought out hate posts without any semblance of argument or reasoning against Magnus.

Also Magnus is canonically the most powerful of his brothers. Just ask Tzeentch. Or Lorgar. Or Lucius. Or arguably Sanguinius, who implies that even Primarchs are wary of Magnus' sorcery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Also Magnus spied SW...that is certain....

Spoiler:

“Still,” said Ahriman, “it is a shame to have lost the opportunity to learn more of the Wolves. Ohthere Wyrdmake and I formed a close bond. With Uthizzar’s help, I would have learned much of the inner workings of the Wolf King’s Legion.”
Magnus nodded and smiled.
“Have no fear, Ahzek,” he said, “Wyrdmake was not our only source within the Wolves. I have other assets in place, none of whom know they dance to my tune.”
Ahriman waited for Magnus to continue, but the primarch kept his own counsel.

The quote is suspect, but Magnus was not the most honest Primarch towards his sons. He wanted them to think of him as virtually all-powerful, so he would mislead them to believe as such. His "saving" them is only the biggest example. The line is blatantly contradicted by how the Council of Nikaea entirely blindsided Magnus, whom never would have believed even Leman Russ would push for sanction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Magnus was incredibly powerful and intelligent. The trouble is, it's no coincidence he has but one eye. Whether literally in the setting or figuratively as part of his characterization, evoking for example the myth of Odin, Magnus gave away vision to gain vision. Everything he gained was negated by what he gave to get it. Such is Tzeentch's way.

The parallel with Odin is indeed obvious, but it is best to ignore the haters, it's like talking to a brick wall.