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 Steel-W0LF wrote:

Rapture wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I'm still curious about the 'chooses to do so' angle, why can't we go back to that because it felt...more productive.

Because all its doing is giving you the choice to not re-roll if you happen to like where the blast scattered, like shooting a unit close to the weapons max range and having the marker scatter more onto the unit getting more hits than you could if the marker did not scatter.

The word 'if' serves to establish conditions. Whether or not one of those conditions is a choice our not is irrelevant - the test is failed if one of the conditions is not met. In this instance, that choice can never bee made. Thus means that the test can never be passed. This means that even if p33 granted the permission that people are arguing that it does, that permission could never be invoked. Unless you can show that half of the sentence should be ignored completely, but that will obviously be a tough sell.

If x and y then z. Why exactly should the 'and y' be ignored as a condition? Can we also ignore the'x' condition? If no, why is'and y' looked at any differently than 'x?' Can we ignore other conditions for tests located elsewhere in the rules? If you said no to that question but yes to ignoring'and y' in this instance, what would make this case so special that we should star ignoring half of the language only for the purpose of getting a re-roll of the scatter dice?

You the player, making a decision, is never a requirement that can deny a special rule. The decision HAS to be made by you the player, as models cant think.... And since your reading nullifies the whole rule in total under all circumstances, it can be ignored.

1 Can the model re-roll to hits? If yes goto 2
2 Do you want to re-roll? if yes goto 3
3 Re-roll all the dice.

The red section represent a misquote of the language - that is not what p33 says. Please quote the full and exact rule that you are arguing and then explain your reading of it after.

"You the player, making a decision, is never a requirement that can deny a special rule." Care to cite a rule that says that? There is nothing in the BRB. There is no rule like that in the English language. Did you just make that up and present it as law? Again, you are being intentionally or negligently misleading.

Anything can be a requirement if it come after an 'if' in an 'if... then...' statement. That is simply how that construction functions in English. Nothing prevents a choice from also being a condition.

For example:
"If you choose to respond to a post on Dakkadakka.com, then your account's post count will increase by one." In order for your post count to increase by one, you must choose to respond to a post - that is a condition.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Actually no, you didnt prove it wrong. You think you did, but you also think that the line on page 33 leads to a rule that doesnt work, despite evidence to the contrary. I also am not moving the target, the target remains the same - they have an ability to reroll to-hit, so can reroll scatter.

For the fourth time, the rule section on the bottom right corner of p13 say that a BS6+ model does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls until after it rolls a 1 on a To Hit roll. Models do not roll To Hit rolls when during blast weapons (see p33).

That disproves your assertion that BS6+ models can re-roll the scatter dice based on an alleged p33 permission. Feel freeto present a counter argument. Please cite rule language when you do.

A model that has PE(Orks) has no ability to reroll to hit unless it rolls a 1 first. Oh look, same situation.

Your stance is disproven, but keep plugging away.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
A model that has PE(Orks) has no ability to reroll to hit unless it rolls a 1 first. Oh look, same situation.

Your stance is disproven, but keep plugging away.

1 being the stipulation. Unless it rolls a 1. Your quote.

Busby - fabulous, care to make a relevant post? Page 33 doesn't care how you are allowed to Reroll to hit, just that you are able to do so. Has that sunk in yet?

JinxDragon wrote:
Nos,
The interpretation doesn't lead to useless like we first assumed, there are Special Rules and Psychic Powers out there which contain the words 'can Re-roll' and therefore can still trigger this Rule.

Not the way the other guy is claiming. He's saying its has to say they can choose to reroll blasts.

Plenty of rules say "May reroll to hit".

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Busby - fabulous, care to make a relevant post? Page 33 doesn't care how you are allowed to Reroll to hit, just that you are able to do so. Has that sunk in yet?

And you are able to, when you roll a 1. Can't do that with Blast... you are not "able" until you roll a 1.

Steel-Wolf,
I doubt that is his interpretation, because the rule's subject matter is clearly the To Hit Roll itself, but he will need to clarify that point himself.

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Busby - fabulous, care to make a relevant post? Page 33 doesn't care how you are allowed to Reroll to hit, just that you are able to do so. Has that sunk in yet?

And you are able to, when you roll a 1. Can't do that with Blast... you are not "able" until you roll a 1.

You're also not able to fail a To Hit roll. Or are you going to continue with that failed argument?

Found any place the blast rules mention a conditional reroll?

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Busby - fabulous, care to make a relevant post? Page 33 doesn't care how you are allowed to Reroll to hit, just that you are able to do so. Has that sunk in yet?

And you are able to, when you roll a 1. Can't do that with Blast... you are not "able" until you roll a 1.

And you can't roll a miss on the "to hit" roll either. So we know this interpretation is wrong.

 easysauce wrote:

you have permission to reroll ones,


vs

you have permission to re roll to hit


you require rerolls to HIT to re roll scater dice,

being able to re roll ones, is not the same thing at all, claiming it is is not RAW, because you have now chainged the RAW from "re rolls to hit" to "re rolls 1's"


two different things, equating them is false, so is saying "meh close enough"


you need the word for word rules, "close enough" is most certainly not close enough in this case.

it is literally the equivelent of someone using permision to re roll 1's, as permission to re roll all hits.

you wouldnt allow a "re roll 1's" model to re roll all hits would you?

why is that?

oh they are not the same?

well thats correct, they are not the same, so things that apply to one, do not carry over to the other

That is absolutely correct.

No, it's not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
A model that has PE(Orks) has no ability to reroll to hit unless it rolls a 1 first. Oh look, same situation.

Your stance is disproven, but keep plugging away.

You need to stop.

Preferred Enemy: "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy." p40 BRB. There is no way that you could possible argue that PE is the equivalent of a model 'gaining' the ability to re-roll 1s after a To Hit roll is made (like the case for BS6).

You did not read the rule before posting.

You are intentionally fabricating things and attempting to mislead people.

Your argument makes no sense even without being proven false by the simple and clear language of the rule. How, exactly, could that possibly disprove anything? Under what rational theory?

The only thing that your statement actually could prove is that, according to the rules and arguments made in my previous posts regarding BS6+, PE doesn't allow for a re-roll of the scatter dice based on the argued p33 theory.

What is your next argument? That Shred says that models with it can make Smash attacks? Or maybe that Infantry can make a Flat Out move? You might as well go for it - eventually something rediculous that you say will go without correction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 easysauce wrote:


you require rerolls to HIT to re roll scater dice,

That is absolutely correct.

That is not correct. That is not what the theory that p33 somehow implies an ability to re-roll the scatter dice based on the ability to re-roll the To Hit dice relies on.

p33 has two requirements. The model must have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls and choose to do so.

Whether a model can choose to do so is at issue and whether that language's arguable implied permission for a re-roll of the scatter is actually a RAW permission is at issue.

If you can pick up a rock, then it can be said that you have the ability to pick up rocks. The fact that you cannot pick up the rock in Amarillo, Texas that weighs 7 tons is irrelevant - you still have the ability to pick up rocks. There is a difference between saying that something 'has the ability to pick up rocks' and that something 'has the ability to pick up all rocks.'

The relevant rule on p33 does not require that a model have the ability to re-roll 'all' To Hit rolls - just the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.Just like the rocks, if you can re-roll To Hit rolls of 1, then you have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls.

Rapture wrote:
[
That is not correct. That is not what the theory that p33 somehow implies an ability to re-roll the scatter dice based on the ability to re-roll the To Hit dice relies on.

p33 has two requirements. The model must have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls and choose to do so.

Whether a model can choose to do so is at issue and whether that language's arguable implied permission for a re-roll of the scatter is actually a RAW permission is at issue.

Its only at issue to one person in this thread.......

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Its only at issue to one person in this thread.......

Whatever makes you feel better. Humor me and quote the permission to re-roll the scatter dice (outside of Twin-liked).

While you are at it, we are all still on the edges of our seats waiting for you to prove this statement:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

Rapture wrote:


BS6 is never sufficient to grant a re-roll of the scatter dice under even the most lenient and optimistic reading of all of the rules. p13 says that BS6+ allows a model to "gain a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks." As a model firing a blast weapon does not roll to hit (see p33), it can never roll a 1 To Hit when firing that blast, meaning that it never 'gains' the ability to make a re-roll.

False 100%

Reading comprehension is not your friend

Rapture wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Its only at issue to one person in this thread.......

Whatever makes you feel better. Humor me and quote the permission to re-roll blast weapons (outside of Twin-liked).

While you are at it, we are all still on the edges of our seats waiting for you to prove this statement:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

Rapture wrote:


BS6 is never sufficient to grant a re-roll of the scatter dice under even the most lenient and optimistic reading of all of the rules. p13 says that BS6+ allows a model to "gain a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks." As a model firing a blast weapon does not roll to hit (see p33), it can never roll a 1 To Hit when firing that blast, meaning that it never 'gains' the ability to make a re-roll.

False 100%

Reading comprehension is not your friend

This will be my last response to you, after this post you are going on ignore because nobody can be this bad.......

The Re-roll blasts rule... the one quoted 18 times on every page of this thread, grants you permission.... That's blindingly obvious.


And BS 6 grants you a re-roll the same way all these listed rules do, by getting a certain result on a "to hit" roll:
Twin Linked
Precience
Preferred Enemy
Earth Cast Pilot Array
Master Crafted
Plus probably quite a few more from codexes I don't have.....

All require you to get a certain result on the "to hit" roll. And all of them grant blasts re-rolls in the exact same way. From permission granted in the ironically named "Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls" rule, whoda thunk it.

I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. I was told many times that what I thought was wrong. That being said, I am gathering that the conclusion on this topic is that the Earth Cast Pilot Array does not let you re-roll scatter. Is that correct? If so there is no need to keep arguing over this and nitpicking on what other people post. I'm honestly just trying to move the thread along because as of now this is an argument that keeps going in circles IMO

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

This will be my last response to you, after this post you are going on ignore because nobody can be this bad.......

The Re-roll blasts rule... the one quoted 18 times on every page of this thread, grants you permission.... That's blindingly obvious.


And BS 6 grants you a re-roll the same way all these listed rules do, by getting a certain result on a "to hit" roll:
Twin Linked
Precience
Preferred Enemy
Earth Cast Pilot Array
Master Crafted
Plus probably quite a few more from codexes I don't have.....

All require you to get a certain result on the "to hit" roll. And all of them grant blasts re-rolls in the exact same way. From permission granted in the ironically named "Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls" rule, whoda thunk it.

Taking the last word and running? How big of you. Again, whatever makes you feel better.

But for the benefit of anyone else unfortunate enough to read your post, you are wrong. P13 shows that BS6+ does not give the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls until after that model rolls a To Hit roll (because of the 'gains' language). As a model does not roll To Hit when firing a blast weapon (p33), a model with only BS6+ can never have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls when it is firing a blast weapon. For all of the other rules you mentioned, the model never 'gains' the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls, but always has it. It is actually very, very simple.

It has to be noted that my abovecomment is only necessary if p33 does grant permission for the scatter dice to be re-rolled as a result of a model having the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls. The fact that you conveniently forgot to quote the rule for that assumed permission is rather telling...

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. I was told many times that what I thought was wrong. That being said, I am gathering that the conclusion on this topic is that the Earth Cast Pilot Array does not let you re-roll scatter. Is that correct? If so there is no need to keep arguing over this and nitpicking on what other people post. I'm honestly just trying to move the thread along because as of now this is an argument that keeps going in circles IMO

If you think any of the re-roll rules I listed above allow it, the the ECPA does as well by the same token. If you think the ECPA does not allow re-rolls for blast, then none of the special rules allow it.

There are only 2 very vocal, but wrong individuals arguing against it using some of the worst logic ever seen. From "nothing allows re-rolls and the rule is space filler." to "A model cant make a choice, so the rule can never be used..." Its asinine...

Commander_Farsight,

There is no continuous;
Some believe there is no limitation on what can Re-Roll
Some believe there are limitations on what can Re-Roll
It is as simple as that.

If you are in a Tournament then run the rules by an organizer to ensure you do not run fowl of their rules. For friendly games you should discuss it with an opponent if you really want to use this piece of war-gear for Re-Rolling blast markers. Personally, I would never use a Re-Roll of 1 to Re-Roll a Blast marker as it doesn't feel right to me: The Re-Roll of 1 was designed to be a 'random chance' thing, that is to say it obviously isn't designed to grant you the ability to Re-Roll every time. The outlook that there is no limitations would grant the Rip-Tide the chance to use it 100% of the time, should they decide, instead of the 16.5% chance it is meant to have.

JinxDragon wrote:
Commander_Farsight,

There is no continuous;
Some believe there is no limitation on what can Re-Roll
Some believe there are limitations on what can Re-Roll
It is as simple as that.

If you are in a Tournament then run the rules by an organizer to ensure you do not run fowl of their rules. For friendly games you should discuss it with an opponent if you really want to use this piece of war-gear for Re-Rolling blast markers. Personally, I would never use a Re-Roll of 1 to Re-Roll a Blast marker as it doesn't feel right to me: The Re-Roll of 1 was designed to be a 'random chance' thing, that is to say it obviously isn't designed to grant you the ability to Re-Roll every time. The outlook that there is no limitations would grant the Rip-Tide the chance to use it 100% of the time, should they decide, instead of the 16.5% chance it is meant to have.

Ok, thank you.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Busby - fabulous, care to make a relevant post? Page 33 doesn't care how you are allowed to Reroll to hit, just that you are able to do so. Has that sunk in yet?

And you are able to, when you roll a 1. Can't do that with Blast... you are not "able" until you roll a 1.

And you can't roll a miss on the "to hit" roll either. So we know this interpretation is wrong.

It's not wrong, because it's RaW. If it's broken and only twin-linked ever allows rerolls of Blast, then so be it.

JinxDragon wrote:

There is no continuous;
Some believe there is no limitation on what can Re-Roll
Some believe there are limitations on what can Re-Roll
It is as simple as that.

If you are in a Tournament then run the rules by an organizer to ensure you do not run fowl of their rules. For friendly games you should discuss it with an opponent if you really want to use this piece of war-gear for Re-Rolling blast markers. Personally, I would never use a Re-Roll of 1 to Re-Roll a Blast marker as it doesn't feel right to me: The Re-Roll of 1 was designed to be a 'random chance' thing, that is to say it obviously isn't designed to grant you the ability to Re-Roll every time. The outlook that there is no limitations would grant the Rip-Tide the chance to use it 100% of the time, should they decide, instead of the 16.5% chance it is meant to have.

I'm sure this sums it up, although RAI.

Do a poll it would be interesting to see how it's played, if the community says rr blasts then thats what it is regardless of what the rules say

Sounds good... Will oblige.

I think the real issue is that people are using a $40 codex to "supplement" their $50 one...

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. I was told many times that what I thought was wrong. That being said, I am gathering that the conclusion on this topic is that the Earth Cast Pilot Array does not let you re-roll scatter. Is that correct? If so there is no need to keep arguing over this and nitpicking on what other people post. I'm honestly just trying to move the thread along because as of now this is an argument that keeps going in circles IMO

In an argument where one side stands to lose an advantage, there will always be holdouts. I can't remember the last time a complex thread wrapped up with total agreement.

Just ask yourself:
1) What grants the permission? Is it explicit or implied?

2) What does that permission require, if anything, to become effective?

If you think about and answer those questions on your own, the you will have no problem explaining the way that you would like to play it to your opponents, meaning that, whether they agree or not, no one will ever think that you are trying to pull one over on them. As far as tournaments go, you should have a minute to explain your stance to the TO rather than just asking for their opinion, so thinking this one hrough and having a brief, colorable argument should prevent you from either having to play against advantages not listed in the rules or losing an ability for no reason.

If you find your argument convincing, want to test your logic, or just want to share, this thread has plenty of people who would be interested.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Busby - fabulous, care to make a relevant post? Page 33 doesn't care how you are allowed to Reroll to hit, just that you are able to do so. Has that sunk in yet?

Page 33 in fact does.

You cannot create the reroll condition until you reach the requirement of hitting a 1. Until the 1 requirement is reached, you will like the ability to reroll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chardun wrote:
I think the real issue is that people are using a $40 codex to "supplement" their $50 one...

Haha Haha. Exalted.

busby wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Busby - fabulous, care to make a relevant post? Page 33 doesn't care how you are allowed to Reroll to hit, just that you are able to do so. Has that sunk in yet?

Page 33 in fact does.

You cannot create the reroll condition until you reach the requirement of hitting a 1. Until the 1 requirement is reached, you will like the ability to reroll.

In the exact same way that most other rerolls require a failed To Hit Roll. If that also stops Blasts from re-rolling: p33 is broken as it only applies to rerolls you are entitled to.

Personally Twin-linked makes the matter clear:
"If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit"

That qualifies the Prescience "failed To Hit" requirement. Disagree if you want to, but that is not broken.

Rerolling blasts with Preferred(Nids) on Orks, however, IS broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

busby wrote:
Voted no because you cannot create the reroll condition without first reaching the 1 requirement which is impossible for blast.

Page 33 doesn't require you to have rolled to hit , just have the ABILITY to reroll to hit. A Rr of 1s is indisputably an ability to Reroll your to hit rolls. Your continued insistence on misreading this rule is impressive

It is indeed indisputably an ability to Reroll your to hit rolls. But you do not have that ability 24/7... only when you roll 1 To Hit.

I would love my preferred enemy to reroll every single roll on my Hand Flamers, don't get me wrong. But it breaks the Rules.
You don't "have the ability to reroll" as a blanket rule.

busby wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Busby - fabulous, care to make a relevant post? Page 33 doesn't care how you are allowed to Reroll to hit, just that you are able to do so. Has that sunk in yet?

Page 33 in fact does.

You cannot create the reroll condition until you reach the requirement of hitting a 1. Until the 1 requirement is reached, you will like the ability to reroll.

Irrelevant, as the rule simply says can you Reroll your to hit? Yes, because you have that ability. When you fire a blast, you can then reroll as you have satisfied the requirement.

Do you think prescience allows a reroll of scatter? Wondering if you are being consistently incorrect or not.

When you ask "can that model reroll to hit?" You must answer yes. That is what page 33 asks.

Steel - already have rapture on ignore; their belligerent attitude wasn't worth it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Irrelevant, as the rule simply says can you Reroll your to hit? Yes, because you have that ability. When you fire a blast, you can then reroll as you have satisfied the requirement.
When you ask "can that model reroll to hit?" You must answer yes. That is what page 33 asks.

Conclusion: A model with a Blast weapon and Preferred enemy (Adepta Sororitas) can reroll it's scatter and 2D6 against any enemy on the table whatsoever.

Broken? I do believe so, especially seeing how many people play AS.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

busby wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Busby - fabulous, care to make a relevant post? Page 33 doesn't care how you are allowed to Reroll to hit, just that you are able to do so. Has that sunk in yet?

Page 33 in fact does.

You cannot create the reroll condition until you reach the requirement of hitting a 1. Until the 1 requirement is reached, you will like the ability to reroll.

Irrelevant, as the rule simply says can you Reroll your to hit? Yes, because you have that ability. When you fire a blast, you can then reroll as you have satisfied the requirement.

Do you think prescience allows a reroll of scatter? Wondering if you are being consistently incorrect or not.

When you ask "can that model reroll to hit?" You must answer yes. That is what page 33 asks.

Steel - already have rapture on ignore; their belligerent attitude wasn't worth it.

You must've glossed over my posts. Short snswer: no but I have reeeallly tried to see how Prescience could so ended with a yes? As in questionable.

There are plenty of abilities that others have mentioned earlier in this thread that allows p33 to work. People have used ECPA and Prescience as if they are the only two rules that might grant it.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also BlackTalos: yes.