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This topic is a bit like a scab on the roof of your mouth that would go away if only you could just leave it alone.

It's hypnotic watching all this 'quoting' of Internet sources as if they were somehow reliable. The brinkmanship with sources and proclaiming to know these amazing aspects of science in the same level of detail as the leading minds in those fields.

I work in genetics and you guys are going on about stuff that frankly I don't remember or know because it's no use to man nor beast. But you treat each other as somehow inferior for not knowing this essentially useless knowledge. Now I'm wondering why I'm posting this and return to my earlier analogy

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm not the one that keeps making falsifiable statements, but that's okay. I'll let you sciency types go about your testing without testing, and get back to actual application of science via engineering. Have fun!

SJ

You make me ashamed to be in an engineering program.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wulfmar wrote:
This is STILL going?

Okay:
1) Humans and Eldar hybrid using REAL Science to answer it: no, never happen
2) Humans and Humans and Eldar hybrid using PSEUDO-40K Science to answer it: a) Yes in Rogue Trader b) No by today's fluff standards
3) Does it matter?: No, you can still imagine the existence if it makes you happy

4) A hypothesis is a proposed idea or explanation based on what little evidence you have on a situation. The experiment is done to figure out how much of that original hypothesis is correct / incorrect. The only bias is that the experiment is focussed on that area of the subject and may miss out parts of the bigger picture (you test variable A, B and C but it turns out variable Z is also a limiting factor which you didn't test)

A positive result or a negative result is still useful data.

Other people then test the hypothesis using the same experimental method (that's why methods are written down) to see if the data is reproducible. If it is, then it adds more evidence to support the initial hypothesis as correct. If the results are different, then either the original, or repeat, or both are inaccurate. Indeed it could be that both are correct but for an unseen reason.

So it's repeated again, and again and again.


Can we maybe close this thread as some of these posts are just turning into a petty 'you proved me right, you're stupid, you can't read, allow me to correct you blah blah blah' slanging match.

This. 40k=/=RT. Kill the thread. I feel bad for the OP. He probably didn't intend to cause this much of a peeing contest.

RT is 1st Ed 40k. 40k would not exist without RT.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
RT is 1st Ed 40k. 40k would not exist without RT.

SJ

Fluff wise, RT could almost be a different universe, that much has changed in the 25 years or whatever it's been. RT is older than me, it's hardly gospel these days.

I was 14 when RT came out, so .....

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I was 14 when RT came out, so .....

SJ

Yes, so...

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
RT is 1st Ed 40k. 40k would not exist without RT.

SJ

And 40K wouldn't exist without Warhammer. And warhammer wouldn't exist without D&D, and D&D wouldn't exist without Tolkein etc.

Considering that, in the fluff concerning Nastase:

1) The Ultramarines were a third founding chapter raised to replace the 13th Legion which turned traitor (Retconned)
2) He was Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines in the year 987 (Retconned, Tigurius was chief librarian then)
3) He was the chief librarian of the Ultramarines without actually being a space marine (Retconned, the only people in the Ultramarines who are not full space marines are Scouts)

He no longer exists. He's just yet another myth from the Rogue Trader era. He was the only one they wrote about and all of his character and achievements have basically been retconned away.

As an addendum, any common ancestor between humans and aliens with 20 base pairs and quintuple helix DNA would have to predate all life on earth, be extraterrestrial in origin, and be single-celled. Only the descendants that had our base pairs and structure would have made it to Earth, since all life on earth has the same double-helix structure and the same base pairs.

It is not possible that a sub-order of primates evolved to have different base pairs and different DNA structure, and certainly not within the 50 million years that primates have existsed, when the genome of all life on earth has changed by much less than that in 500 million years.

If you extrapolate backwards based on the average change in the genome, any common ancestor would have to predate the origins of the universe by several orders of magnitude at least (and thus couldn't exist), but this extrapolation is extremely speculative as we have no data on extraterrestrial evolution. We can only really speak with confidence about terrestrial evolution within the last billion years or so.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Considering that, in the fluff concerning Nastase:

1) The Ultramarines were a third founding chapter raised to replace the 13th Legion which turned traitor (Retconned)

Correct. No argument from me.

2) He was Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines in the year 987 (Retconned, Tigurius was chief librarian then)

Incorrect. Nastase was never Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines, although he did attain the rank of Chief Librarian, an Astropath, and the Chief of the Macragge Interstellar Communication Link. There is no conflict with the character of Varro Tigurius.

3) He was the chief librarian of the Ultramarines without actually being a space marine (Retconned, the only people in the Ultramarines who are not full space marines are Scouts)

This one's an odd one, I admit. While Nastase is never mentioned to be an Astartes, he is displayed in Astartes armor and noted as being an Ultramarine. We know he was an adult before working for the Dark Angel as an Astropath Primis, so most likely became an Astartes after being assigned to the Ultramarines. Guess they felt he was a keeper? (Pun intended)

He no longer exists. He's just yet another myth from the Rogue Trader era. He was the only one they wrote about and all of his character and achievements have basically been retconned away.

He's still there, in the future mythology, his fluff has nothing to do with the Ultramarine fluff beyond being one.

SJ

He'd be too old to become a space marine if he was made one then. Plus, they wouldn't have made a half Eldar a space marine.

 office_waaagh wrote:
As an addendum, any common ancestor between humans and aliens with 20 base pairs and quintuple helix DNA would have to predate all life on earth, be extraterrestrial in origin, and be single-celled. Only the descendants that had our base pairs and structure would have made it to Earth, since all life on earth has the same double-helix structure and the same base pairs.

It is not possible that a sub-order of primates evolved to have different base pairs and different DNA structure, and certainly not within the 50 million years that primates have existsed, when the genome of all life on earth has changed by much less than that in 500 million years.

If you extrapolate backwards based on the average change in the genome, any common ancestor would have to predate the origins of the universe by several orders of magnitude at least (and thus couldn't exist), but this extrapolation is extremely speculative as we have no data on extraterrestrial evolution. We can only really speak with confidence about terrestrial evolution within the last billion years or so.

Actually, the Eldar fluff includes genetic manipulation by the Old One. Who here can say that the Eldar did not start off as Hominidae on Earth, where uplifted by the Old Ones, and used as soldiers in the war versus the Necrons? In order for the Eldar to still reproduce, their original DNA was left intact, which millions of years later still allow them to occasionally produce an offspring with their distant cousins from Earth? You don't know, I don't, but it is possible.

SJ

Someone seriously needs to exterminatus the feth out of this thread.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 office_waaagh wrote:
As an addendum, any common ancestor between humans and aliens with 20 base pairs and quintuple helix DNA would have to predate all life on earth, be extraterrestrial in origin, and be single-celled. Only the descendants that had our base pairs and structure would have made it to Earth, since all life on earth has the same double-helix structure and the same base pairs.

It is not possible that a sub-order of primates evolved to have different base pairs and different DNA structure, and certainly not within the 50 million years that primates have existsed, when the genome of all life on earth has changed by much less than that in 500 million years.

If you extrapolate backwards based on the average change in the genome, any common ancestor would have to predate the origins of the universe by several orders of magnitude at least (and thus couldn't exist), but this extrapolation is extremely speculative as we have no data on extraterrestrial evolution. We can only really speak with confidence about terrestrial evolution within the last billion years or so.

Actually, the Eldar fluff includes genetic manipulation by the Old One. Who here can say that the Eldar did not start off as Hominidae on Earth, where uplifted by the Old Ones, and used as soldiers in the war versus the Necrons? In order for the Eldar to still reproduce, their original DNA was left intact, which millions of years later still allow them to occasionally produce an offspring with their distant cousins from Earth? You don't know, I don't, but it is possible.

SJ

Pretty sure Eldar predate humanity, by quite a while, no?

The Eldar shaped worlds a while humanity's ancestors crawled out of the sea.

Yeah, they were first.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Eldar shaped worlds a while humanity's ancestors crawled out of the sea.

Yeah, they were first.

I never said Humans were first. Why would you assume that?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Eldar shaped worlds a while humanity's ancestors crawled out of the sea.

Yeah, they were first.

I never said Humans were first. Why would you assume that?

SJ

You said that the Eldar might be genetically altered hominids. But the Eldar existed before even the dinosaurs, so that is impossible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Actually, the Eldar fluff includes genetic manipulation by the Old One. Who here can say that the Eldar did not start off as Hominidae on Earth, where uplifted by the Old Ones, and used as soldiers in the war versus the Necrons? In order for the Eldar to still reproduce, their original DNA was left intact, which millions of years later still allow them to occasionally produce an offspring with their distant cousins from Earth? You don't know, I don't, but it is possible.

SJ

Got the quote mixed up at the bottom there Malus Jefferson said that, and then I said about them being older than us.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Got the quote mixed up at the bottom there Malus Jefferson said that, and then I said about them being older than us.

Yeah I saw that, should be fixed now

Actually, if you check my previous posts on this subject, I always stated Humans are decendents of Eldar Exodites. It was only been on this thread that I've pondered Eldar origins on Earth. The fact that all life on Earth has to same genetic origin can be explained by Eldar terraforming just as easily as it can explain Eldar being a branch of the Hominid tribe. The Eldar super stack DNA is a red herring, because it's inclusion is irrelevant since Human-Eldar offspring does occur, and can be directly explain from the Eldar fluff via Old One tampering.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Actually, if you check my previous posts on this subject, I always stated Humans are decendents of Eldar Exodites. It was only been on this thread that I've pondered Eldar origins on Earth. The fact that all life on Earth has to same genetic origin can be explained by Eldar terraforming just as easily as it can explain Eldar being a branch of the Hominid tribe. The Eldar super stack DNA is a red herring, because it's inclusion is irrelevant since Human-Eldar offspring does occur, and can be directly explain from the Eldar fluff via Old One tampering.

SJ

Except there is only one instance of it ever being mentioned as having occurred. And that has effectively been retconned by all of the changes to fluff which have come since.

Can we all agree there are multiple ways of interpreting the fluff,
1. That xenology is lies and eldar dna is the same as ours, and as such hybrids
2. Nastase is just a legend and might not exist, or have full human parentage
3. Xenology is right, but 40k not science means hybrids are possible

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Actually, if you check my previous posts on this subject, I always stated Humans are decendents of Eldar Exodites. It was only been on this thread that I've pondered Eldar origins on Earth. The fact that all life on Earth has to same genetic origin can be explained by Eldar terraforming just as easily as it can explain Eldar being a branch of the Hominid tribe. The Eldar super stack DNA is a red herring, because it's inclusion is irrelevant since Human-Eldar offspring does occur, and can be directly explain from the Eldar fluff via Old One tampering.

SJ

Except there is only one instance of it ever being mentioned as having occurred. And that has effectively been retconned by all of the changes to fluff which have come since.

Except that one example has not been retconned, retracted, nor redacted.

SJ

Consider the following analogy.

In the first edition of a setting, a writer talks about a wanderer who lives in a desert, a human who walks the wastes and survives by moving from oasis to oasis.

Many years later the setting has exploded in size and the author's retcons and new decisions have changed a lot of the old facts. In one of his new stories, he details the previously mentioned desert, and explains that the desert is extremely hot (over 600 degrees celsius). He also explains that the desert is effectively entirely consisting of quicksand, and any attempts to enter it would be disastrous.

The existence of the first wanderer has not been explicitly retconned, however, the only logical conclusion to draw is to consider him as such. The author did not say 'the wanderer no longer exists', but he did provide other data whose existence is not compatible with a previous iteration of the story.

In a similar vein, the existence of the Half-Eldar has not been explicitly retconned. However, the changes in the setting (such as details on Eldar genetics and Imperial xenophobia, the absence of his position in the complete lists of Ultramarine membership ranks, and so on) are incompatible with his existence. As said changes are more numerous, more recent and more consistent, it is only rational to assume that they take precedence in this canon conflict.

Not so difficult, now was it?

When canon conflicts, the oldest, least consistent with the rest of the setting, and least common part really should not be used outside of headcanon.

Are you sure the Wanderer hasn't continued to survive in the desert because of his environmental suit and local knowledge of the terrain?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Are you sure the Wanderer hasn't continued to survive in the desert because of his environmental suit and local knowledge of the terrain?

SJ

There is no suit that can withstand 600 degrees celsius. That is hotter than Venus, the hottest planet in our solar system, that is hot enough to melt Lead. At that temperature it would never rain, water would instantly evaporate if it came up from the ground and so he would not be able to drink. And what terrain? It is all quicksand. All of it.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Are you sure the Wanderer hasn't continued to survive in the desert because of his environmental suit and local knowledge of the terrain?

SJ

There is no suit that can withstand 600 degrees celsius. That is hotter than Venus, the hottest planet in our solar system, that is hot enough to melt Lead. And what terrain? It is all quicksand. All of it.

The waste-recycling still suit, of course. You know, the one designed to collect human waste and waste water, respiration, and recycle it to keep the wearer alive? And the terrain is the subterranean tubes running under the surface from oasis to oasis.

SJ

This thread feels like arguing for the sake of arguing.

Does everyone except the one guy that doesn't know any science or logic agree that the character has been retconned and doesn't exist, that eldar aren't the same species as humans taxonomically speaking, and that creatures with double-helix DNA can't interbreed with creatures with quintuple-helix DNA?

Really? Everyone? Nobody takes him seriously? Excellent.

I think we're done here then. Let's all stop feeding the troll before he subjects my beloved sciences to any further abuse.

If anyone likes science as much as I do and wants to actually talk about it, I'm happy to have that discussion. There was a neat article published recently about horizontal gene transfer, or animals absorbing genes from distant species into their own genome by eating them. So maybe the Kroot aren't as scientifically implausible as I've been assuming. I think that's kind of cool.

 office_waaagh wrote:
Does everyone except the one guy that doesn't know any science or logic agree that the character has been retconned and doesn't exist, that eldar aren't the same species as humans taxonomically speaking, and that creatures with double-helix DNA can't interbreed with creatures with quintuple-helix DNA?

Really? Everyone? Nobody takes him seriously? Excellent.

I think we're done here then. Let's all stop feeding the troll before he subjects my beloved sciences to any further abuse.

If anyone likes science as much as I do and wants to actually talk about it, I'm happy to have that discussion. There was a neat article published recently about horizontal gene transfer, or animals absorbing genes from distant species into their own genome by eating them. So maybe the Kroot aren't as scientifically implausible as I've been assuming. I think that's kind of cool.

If I wasn't afraid of flamewars I'd start a thread on that, that's pretty cool sir.

I believe this will be my last post now.


I believe I understand Jeffersons view on this character (correct me if I'm wrong). It boils down to: There has been no literal writing that states such a character cannot exist since it's first publication. Because he was created but then not been stated as non-existent in actual writing, then he persists as a character that just wasn't developed further. I can see this point but I disagree with it for the following reason:

Each time the codex is re-written, I see it as re-write, a re-freshing of the history. It's not cumulative with previous codex fluff, it's a re-write that obliterates the previous one (in effect). Therefore, if this character is not included, he then does not exist. The timeline has not progressed at all when you look at the codex.


It basically just boils down to a point of pedency