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jeffersonian000 wrote: Eldar and Humans are the same species, as seen with the number of Eldar-Human half-breeds that pop up in the fiction. Effectively, Eldar are a branch of hominid that reach the stars in pre-history. Or, Humans are Exodite Eldar that predate the Eldar galactic disporia.
SJ
When was the last time there was an Eldar Human hybrid..? Eldar were created by the Old Ones. Maybe from Humanity but I'm pretty sure they've been around far far longer than humanity has.
my understanding was that Eldar and Humans were both created by the old ones. The eldar were just created first and had gotten to a finished stage of development where as men were kind of a work in progress that got cut short during the war in the heavens.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
jeffersonian000 wrote: Eldar and Humans are the same species, as seen with the number of Eldar-Human half-breeds that pop up in the fiction. Effectively, Eldar are a branch of hominid that reach the stars in pre-history. Or, Humans are Exodite Eldar that predate the Eldar galactic disporia.
SJ
When was the last time there was an Eldar Human hybrid..? Eldar were created by the Old Ones. Maybe from Humanity but I'm pretty sure they've been around far far longer than humanity has.
my understanding was that Eldar and Humans were both created by the old ones. The eldar were just created first and had gotten to a finished stage of development where as men were kind of a work in progress that got cut short during the war in the heavens.
Yeah so Eldar didn't evolve from humans or vice versa, they were just both engineered by the same people.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Eldar and Humans are the same species, as seen with the number of Eldar-Human half-breeds that pop up in the fiction. Effectively, Eldar are a branch of hominid that reach the stars in pre-history. Or, Humans are Exodite Eldar that predate the Eldar galactic disporia.
SJ
When was the last time there was an Eldar Human hybrid..? Eldar were created by the Old Ones. Maybe from Humanity but I'm pretty sure they've been around far far longer than humanity has.
my understanding was that Eldar and Humans were both created by the old ones. The eldar were just created first and had gotten to a finished stage of development where as men were kind of a work in progress that got cut short during the war in the heavens.
Yeah so Eldar didn't evolve from humans or vice versa, they were just both engineered by the same people.
yes, so maybe the engineers used the same type of building blocks. I dont think there are any hybrids out there but eldar might have DNA.
Tyranids might not have DNA, they might have a different chemical chain that does the same thing.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
I think they both do have DNA (but that depends how canon Xenology is considered, I don't actually know).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote: Actually humans weren't made by the old ones. They evolved pretty much on their own, with a little help from the C'tan, who mixed in the pariah gene.
Oh okay yeah that is what I thought but I wasn't sure. So have Eldar human hybrids been in the fluff recently? I could see them being around in like rogue trader or whatever but it seems ridiculous that they'd be able to hybridise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 20:45:06
If I recall correctly, Tyranids do have DNA, which is how they're able to steal traits from species they encounter, and how genestealers are able to create hybrids with species they infiltrate. The odds that a species from outside our galaxy (much less outside our own planet) would have evolved to use the same genetic processes we do seem astronomically small. Since it was the Old Ones who seeded and shaped life around our galaxy (which explains why most things in 40k have similar traits and use DNA), I take this as support for my personal theory that after the Old Ones disappeared to somewhere else, they created the Tyranids and aimed them at our galaxy as a final F-U to the C'tan and Necrons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 20:48:22
Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
ThePrimordial wrote: This is more of a science question than anything else.
Eldar as a species that have existed unmolested and been kept anatomically identical for millions of years have far longer DNA sequence strands than humans do.
This has ups and downs. Gestation is far longer. And the species takes forever to show signs of age. Aging is caused by damage to the DNA strands over constant copying and thus, if there's far larger sequences, and the rate of copying is the same, it takes far longer for damage to occur. Whales are an earthbound example of these principles.
My question really is how did those sequences get so long? I've always assumed it happens over vast periods of time as more and more genotypes and phenotypes get mixed in and added on to the DNA sequence but I don't know for sure.
Can anyone help?
Speaking as a geneticist, genetics in the fluff is fubar.
However, what is your source for Eldar genomes being bigger?
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: If I recall correctly, Tyranids do have DNA, which is how they're able to steal traits from species they encounter, and how genestealers are able to create hybrids with species they infiltrate. The odds that a species from outside our galaxy (much less outside our own planet) would have evolved to use the same genetic processes we do seem astronomically small. Since it was the Old Ones who seeded and shaped life around our galaxy (which explains why most things in 40k have similar traits and use DNA), I take this as support for my personal theory that after the Old Ones disappeared to somewhere else, they created the Tyranids and aimed them at our galaxy as a final F-U to the C'tan and Necrons.
Not a bad theory except Necrons seem to not have much to fear from Nids. Nids go after biomass which the Necrons have very little of. Don't they just avoid tomb planets generally?
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: If I recall correctly, Tyranids do have DNA, which is how they're able to steal traits from species they encounter, and how genestealers are able to create hybrids with species they infiltrate. The odds that a species from outside our galaxy (much less outside our own planet) would have evolved to use the same genetic processes we do seem astronomically small. Since it was the Old Ones who seeded and shaped life around our galaxy (which explains why most things in 40k have similar traits and use DNA), I take this as support for my personal theory that after the Old Ones disappeared to somewhere else, they created the Tyranids and aimed them at our galaxy as a final F-U to the C'tan and Necrons.
Not a bad theory except Necrons seem to not have much to fear from Nids. Nids go after biomass which the Necrons have very little of. Don't they just avoid tomb planets generally?
Necrons are terrified of the nids... They are going to destory all life in the galaxy, while the necrons grand plan is to transfer themselves back into organic bodies, once they rule everything.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: If I recall correctly, Tyranids do have DNA, which is how they're able to steal traits from species they encounter, and how genestealers are able to create hybrids with species they infiltrate. The odds that a species from outside our galaxy (much less outside our own planet) would have evolved to use the same genetic processes we do seem astronomically small. Since it was the Old Ones who seeded and shaped life around our galaxy (which explains why most things in 40k have similar traits and use DNA), I take this as support for my personal theory that after the Old Ones disappeared to somewhere else, they created the Tyranids and aimed them at our galaxy as a final F-U to the C'tan and Necrons.
Not a bad theory except Necrons seem to not have much to fear from Nids. Nids go after biomass which the Necrons have very little of. Don't they just avoid tomb planets generally?
Necrons are terrified of the nids... They are going to destory all life in the galaxy, while the necrons grand plan is to transfer themselves back into organic bodies, once they rule everything.
Yeah but they don't actually scare Necrons as they are now as much as they will ruin what the Crons want to be right? I mean if the old ones had made the nids as a weapon against the Necrons they probably wouldn't exclusively focus on biomass is what I'm trying to say.
Which proves that different people have different opinions? Nastase is an example from GW, that has a model, a printed backstory, and fits the point I made that humans and Eldar are cousins within the same branch of hominid. Move the goal post all you want, but you can't disprove it.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Which proves that different people have different opinions? Nastase is an example from GW, that has a model, a printed backstory, and fits the point I made that humans and Eldar are cousins within the same branch of hominid. Move the goal post all you want, but you can't disprove it.
SJ
It proves that that fluff is from Rogue Trader, almost thirty years ago, and has no bearing on the fluff as it is today. It was basically a different game back then. The fluff has changed a lot.
Also I thing that model is a conversion, not official.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 22:09:52
Which proves that different people have different opinions? Nastase is an example from GW, that has a model, a printed backstory, and fits the point I made that humans and Eldar are cousins within the same branch of hominid. Move the goal post all you want, but you can't disprove it.
SJ
I wasn't trying to. I just was curious about this bit 'o' fluff and happened along that site (which is very amusing, by the way!).
Which proves that different people have different opinions? Nastase is an example from GW, that has a model, a printed backstory, and fits the point I made that humans and Eldar are cousins within the same branch of hominid. Move the goal post all you want, but you can't disprove it.
SJ
Uh..
Rogue Trader fluff had Space Marines as all convicts, the Emperor actually able to walk around and talk to people, Female Orcs, and Chaos Androids.
Guess how many of these things are still correct fluff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 23:50:00
Technically, all Orks are self fertilizing females as they lack the male structures found with most plants.
As to "negating" RT era fluff due to age, that's called "moving the goal post". You would actually need to provide a counter argument to disprove the existence of characters like Nastase, such as recent fluff stacking that Eldar are a separate unique species that just so happens to look like humans, speak Galic, write Galic, and follow ancient human religious practices. Find that fluff, and you are golden! Keep moving the goal post all you want, but that does not count my argument at all.
SJ
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/07 14:17:06
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: Technically, all Orks are self fertilizing females as they lack the male structures found with most plants.
As to "negating" RT era fluff due to age, that's called "moving the goal post". You would actually need to provide a counter argument to disprove the existence of characters like Nastase, such as recent fluff stacking that Eldar are a separate unique species that just so happens to look like humans, speak Galic, write Galic, and follow ancient human religious practices. Find that fluff, and you are golden! Keep moving the goal post all you want, but that does not count my argument at all.
SJ
Eldar don't look human (humanoid, but suitably alien), and don't follow human religions. That much is in any Eldar fluff these days. I'm pretty sure they have their own language (they can probably speak Gothic but only when they're talking to humans) and their written language is all runes I believe.
And Orks are fungus, not plants. Male and female as far as I know doesn't apply to fungi.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/07 14:28:59
Eldar Craftworlds are named after Celtic holidays. Many of their naming conventions are modified biblical names. Their name for humans is "Mon-Keigh".
Yes, the authors are human, and English. Yet, the authors also had a fascination with anthropology, archaeology, and world history, which shows in the fluff.
Again, my point is that the information exists in the 40k setting, and this is the extension of that information. Eldar are not Human, and Humans are not Eldar. However, that is the sane as Tigers not being Lions, and Lions not being Tigers: please meet the Liger. Nastase and the other Eldar-Human hybrids in the setting are "Ligers", so to speak. This means they are close enough in relation to be able to crossbreed, despite normally having no population interaction. The differences between Eldar and Humans are cosmetic at most, while they are anatomically close enough to produce the occasional child with aspects of both parents. From this we know that Eldar follow the same XX, XY chromosome paradygn that Humans do, and given morphology, Eldar are hominids closer to Homo Sapien Sapien than our next closest cousins, the Pan Troglodytes (Chimpanzee, Bonobo).
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: Eldar Craftworlds are named after Celtic holidays. Many of their naming conventions are modified biblical names. Their name for humans is "Mon-Keigh".
Yes, the authors are human, and English. Yet, the authors also had a fascination with anthropology, archaeology, and world history, which shows in the fluff.
Again, my point is that the information exists in the 40k setting, and this is the extension of that information. Eldar are not Human, and Humans are not Eldar. However, that is the sane as Tigers not being Lions, and Lions not being Tigers: please meet the Liger. Nastase and the other Eldar-Human hybrids in the setting are "Ligers", so to speak. This means they are close enough in relation to be able to crossbreed, despite normally having no population interaction. The differences between Eldar and Humans are cosmetic at most, while they are anatomically close enough to produce the occasional child with aspects of both parents. From this we know that Eldar follow the same XX, XY chromosome paradygn that Humans do, and given morphology, Eldar are hominids closer to Homo Sapien Sapien than our next closest cousins, the Pan Troglodytes (Chimpanzee, Bonobo).
SJ
Eldar are a much older race than humanity. Therefore, it only follows that they gave the Celts the names of their holidays (in order for Games Workshop to use them in 40k)
Wow. That's amazing. We've just proven that Eldar exist. Now to find them in the stars!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/07 16:12:15
jeffersonian000 wrote: Technically, all Orks are self fertilizing females as they lack the male structures found with most plants.
As to "negating" RT era fluff due to age, that's called "moving the goal post". You would actually need to provide a counter argument to disprove the existence of characters like Nastase, such as recent fluff stacking that Eldar are a separate unique species that just so happens to look like humans, speak Galic, write Galic, and follow ancient human religious practices. Find that fluff, and you are golden! Keep moving the goal post all you want, but that does not count my argument at all.
SJ
The fact that the Eldar were present in the War in Heaven, as an extremely advanced, techno-psychic species, which ended 60 million years ago, indicates that they are not a human off-shoot, as the genetic structure that is humanity did not exist then. Their genetics also seem to be somewhat silicon-based, since they crystallize when they reach a certain stage in their lifecycle, which humans do not do.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Rogue Trader fluff had Space Marines as all convicts, the Emperor actually able to walk around and talk to people, Female Orcs, and Chaos Androids.
Guess how many of these things are still correct fluff.
Hmmmmm... there are no female Orks? That's what I get for not following Ork fluff. Orky sad face :(
Orks literally reproduce by having their skin removed from their bodies. Scratching an itch makes baby orks.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
jeffersonian000 wrote: Technically, all Orks are self fertilizing females as they lack the male structures found with most plants.
As to "negating" RT era fluff due to age, that's called "moving the goal post". You would actually need to provide a counter argument to disprove the existence of characters like Nastase, such as recent fluff stacking that Eldar are a separate unique species that just so happens to look like humans, speak Galic, write Galic, and follow ancient human religious practices. Find that fluff, and you are golden! Keep moving the goal post all you want, but that does not count my argument at all.
SJ
The fact that the Eldar were present in the War in Heaven, as an extremely advanced, techno-psychic species, which ended 60 million years ago, indicates that they are not a human off-shoot, as the genetic structure that is humanity did not exist then. Their genetics also seem to be somewhat silicon-based, since they crystallize when they reach a certain stage in their lifecycle, which humans do not do.
I've been saying Humans and Eldar share common ancestors, making Humans effectively a branch of Exodites, rather than Eldar being descended from Humans.
ImAGeek wrote: But that might have been the case in old fluff, but it isn't true any more.
Prove it. Nothing in current fluff disproves nor negates this bit of older fluff. Rather than stating its so, please prove its so.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
I've been saying Humans and Eldar share common ancestors, making Humans effectively a branch of Exodites, rather than Eldar being descended from Humans.
While it's possible that there is some sort of protozoa that eventually became Humanity that was also involved in the creation of the Eldar, this would be little more than an accident of genetic history, rather than design.
Other than a single, half-elven character from a time when the game was Warhammer Fantasy... IN SPACE! there's no evidence to support a common ancestor for the two.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
I've been saying Humans and Eldar share common ancestors, making Humans effectively a branch of Exodites, rather than Eldar being descended from Humans.
While it's possible that there is some sort of protozoa that eventually became Humanity that was also involved in the creation of the Eldar, this would be little more than an accident of genetic history, rather than design.
Other than a single, half-elven character from a time when the game was Warhammer Fantasy... IN SPACE! there's no evidence to support a common ancestor for the two.
In fantasy, Elves, Dwarves, Slaan, and Humans were all created by the old ones. Very different.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
I've been saying Humans and Eldar share common ancestors, making Humans effectively a branch of Exodites, rather than Eldar being descended from Humans.
While it's possible that there is some sort of protozoa that eventually became Humanity that was also involved in the creation of the Eldar, this would be little more than an accident of genetic history, rather than design.
Other than a single, half-elven character from a time when the game was Warhammer Fantasy... IN SPACE! there's no evidence to support a common ancestor for the two.
So, other than the evidence, there is no evidence? Cool, I guess.
Btw, there are other examples, including a recent novel with an unamed female Human-Eldar hybrid, so Nastase is neither alone nor dated.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
