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 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also are we comparing similar number of shots or points? You get 2 Scatterlasers for 2 Heavy Bolters or an Assault Cannon.

No, I did the results for one of each. You can simply double the numbers as you see fit.

The heavy bolter is frankly embarrassing. AP4 is a joke.

I'd contest that. AP4 is great-Tau, Scouts, Eldar, 'eavy Orks... AP4 counters a lot of stuff.

Heavy Bolters, though, suck. Heavy Flamers, though, kick butt.

As someone using Skitarii recently, AP4 doesn't counter much thanks to cover. Also everyone knows Eavy Armor Orks are overpriced by a point or two, so claiming them to be good against a bad unit doesn't help your case.

However, we are in agreement for the Heavy Flamer. It fething ROCKS.

That's because ignore cover AP4 IS useful. And it doesn't roll to hit, so one less point of failure. But, it doesn't rock so hard that BA aren't terrible :\

As a salamander player, Twinlinked Heavy flamers are awesome. I only wish I could get them on Tac Squads.

AS per terminators, what one could try to do is make them debuff/buff units.

Previous posts have mentioned giving them blind on entry, which is a good start. If the Terminators deepstruck and caused a 12" blind check at -1 initiative, they would start carving themselves a different niche, Because even though they aren't explicitly more survivable, they become more survivable because units can't hurt them as effectively. Whats more is that this doesn't only benefit the termies, it helps the entire army by reducing enemy damage for a round. At the same time there is viable counterplay, mechanized infantry, high In units, or good ol' bubblewrapping.

Anyways, Instead of outright changing stats (because buffing the stats is just going to lead to even more severe power creep) its possible to carve out a buff/debuff niche that centurions can't do.

Stormbolters - 12" assault 3

Terminator Armor - Reduce AP of wounds allocated to the wearer by 1 (So AP2 becomes AP3) in the shooting phase.

Suddenly Terminators are great at tanking AP2 units (But not AP1), and comes out pretty even vs most MCs in CC. (5 attacks, 3-4 hits, 2-3 dead terms, 4-6 powerfist returns attacks, 2-3 hits, 2-3 wounds).

The role of a Termie is similar to that of a tac marine, albeit they're much much tougher. 2+ saves are fine. Only specialised weaponry (shooty or stabby) can penetrate that. And when it does they still have their invul save. And on top of that many SM players throw on the stupid shield too and get the silly invul save. Compared to tac marines that's a perfectly good boost to defence. They shouldn't be Cent levels of protection nor should they be dreadnaughts. You should in fact see the four units 0 tac's, termies, cents and dreads as a continuing escalation of armour and protection for the not-so-humble space marine. Also the DS situation is fine. Assaulting from DS should be the perview of specific units in specific factions only, not a universal rule for SM's that will further break the game. Termies are not specialised DSing assault troops anyway, they're generalist troops like tacs, just heavier.

The issue's termies face come down to cost. Either they're a little too expensive or the other top-tier stuff is too cheap. Probably the latter, but GW wants to reduce points cost to drive up table model count so the solution is to bring termies down in price so they can be fielded.

Once upon a time Termies were the shizzle, they were way tougher than anything else and hit hard. Now not so much, their conceptual role has changed over the years. The way to make them better now is to make them better at being the generalist they are.

Shooting - the weapon limitations are too severe. They need more heavy weapons. Why would you build a platform that can move and fire heavy weapons and not load it with heavy weapons? Where are the dreads sporting only storm bolters? They don't exist. Every second termie (not counting the sergeant/champion) should be able to upgrade to a heavy weapon (heavy flamers missiles or assault/auto-cannons are fine for them). Or GW could go the simple route of 2 heavies per standard 3/5 man squad and 4 per 10 man squad.

Combat - they're fine having built in fists but the initiative hit is bad. Now we can't have them hitting with fists/hammers at full I value as that would be broken but why not allow them to hit at I2 instead? They're slower with that weaponry but all those servo's working their arms give them some advantage in swinging the slow weapons.. They'd still attack after anything that doesn't fight with fists or hammers but vs regular marines/guard with said fists they're hitting first.

Termies should be able to take on anything that comes their way but they don't need to be specialised at taking down any specific thing. Storm Bolters and the heavy weaponry they can take are good for clearing infantry, fists are good for clearing vehicles, walkers or monsters. None of these make them top-tier at dealing with any of those specific targets but what they can do is take on all of them adequately. They don't deal well in combat vs hordes but that's their weakness - with more heavy weapons they could shoot a horde to death instead. With a little cost reduction they'll become very good support units to bolster your tac squads. With the option of a land raider transport too (which itself could probably do with a cost reduction) it' should be a nice unit to have. There's something to be said for a unit that can deal with any target in front of it when it needs to. If you only field ultra-specialised troops you run the risk of being caught in a non-optimal situation where you're expensive specialised unit is now next to useless. Think of termies as tac marines+, give them a little buffing and they're good to go. They don't need to be cent levels of toughness of devastator levels of dakka, or death company levels of CC. They just need to be pretty good at all of them. Like tac marines.

"Once upon a time Termies were the shizzle"

This was never true, except perhaps in 4th. They have been a steaming pile of poo in every other edition.

The fists fail because every MC in the game ignores their armor and then strikes first.

I personally would like to see terminators in a tactical shock troop role. Think heavy sterngaurd with teleport.

I would be fine with:
-armor save 1+/5++
-relentless makes unwieldy -1 to I (MANZ problem? orks need overhaulin anyway)
-RF or salvo type for the SB(just change the darn thing already)
-Heavy weapons 2 per 5man
-PWs with CC options for all
(adjust points accordingly)

I think making termies T5 or W2 adds to power creep(not that 1+ won't) and doesn't solve the AP2 problem. The relentless change with a RF or salvo SB would give them usable small arms fire and means they would get to use a PF if they bring it. The usable SB and options for HWs and PWs/PFs fits with the tactical shock flavor I would like to see. I think this bump in firepower and survivability would let them make a dent if they DS and make it to the next turn. They could sit and hold with PFs in cover, they could be a marching gun line, or they could be a hack and slash delivery. They would still die if you shoot/punch them enough or start dropping AP1.

I personally hate the centurian models but it is true that termies have sucked for a long time are get outperformed but they look so cooooool. I also am one of the people who thinks 40k has crept up way too big and agree that stuff is just falling off the back now.

skysky wrote:
I personally would like to see terminators in a tactical shock troop role. Think heavy sterngaurd with teleport.

I would be fine with:
-armor save 1+/5++
-relentless makes unwieldy -1 to I (MANZ problem? orks need overhaulin anyway)
-RF or salvo type for the SB(just change the darn thing already)
-Heavy weapons 2 per 5man
-PWs with CC options for all
(adjust points accordingly)

I think making termies T5 or W2 adds to power creep(not that 1+ won't) and doesn't solve the AP2 problem. The relentless change with a RF or salvo SB would give them usable small arms fire and means they would get to use a PF if they bring it. The usable SB and options for HWs and PWs/PFs fits with the tactical shock flavor I would like to see. I think this bump in firepower and survivability would let them make a dent if they DS and make it to the next turn. They could sit and hold with PFs in cover, they could be a marching gun line, or they could be a hack and slash delivery. They would still die if you shoot/punch them enough or start dropping AP1.

I personally hate the centurian models but it is true that termies have sucked for a long time are get outperformed but they look so cooooool. I also am one of the people who thinks 40k has crept up way too big and agree that stuff is just falling off the back now.

I think you mean a 2+ roll friend, a 1+ would mean i pass every save outside of AP 1 weapons.

Ones always fail. But a 1+ would mean Termies could ignore AP 2 weapons with ease.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ones always fail. But a 1+ would mean Termies could ignore AP 2 weapons with ease.

Im not against AP 2 getting them, i think it would be a bit better with 2 wounds though, that said, the idea for relentless doing a -1 to unwhildly is nice, still would always go last lol.

Im not against AP 2 getting them, i think it would be a bit better with 2 wounds though, that said, the idea for relentless doing a -1 to unwhildly is nice, still would always go last lol.

T4 with W1 means you can still swamp them with wounds and they die when they role a 1. Wounds are probably the most expensive stat line increase because you are (in a sense) almost getting another life. Look at the point increase from a captain to a CM, or from a boy to a nob. The W1 S1+ means they still get wounded normally from volume and strength, they just won't get rolled with AP2. If you want some bigger platform that can soak wounds and need even heavier weapons/dakka, then take centurians. I don't want termies to be broken, just usable. Also, on the I3 powerfist, you would still be going before tau, necron, carnifex, orks, human PFs, simultaneous with other I3. In certain situations though you would have to decide between which PWs to bring, like you do already with the other veteran options that can mix and match PWs. Again, not trying to break them, just make them flexible and usable with some differentiation in role from the other stuff. Like I said, uparmored sterngaurd.