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One thing they definitely need to be able to do is take 2 Heavy Weapons for every 5 Terminators. That way you get 4 in a max squad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
One thing they definitely need to be able to do is take 2 Heavy Weapons for every 5 Terminators. That way you get 4 in a max squad.

I don't think what would help much as most the heavy weapons they can take kinda suck.

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
One thing they definitely need to be able to do is take 2 Heavy Weapons for every 5 Terminators. That way you get 4 in a max squad.

I don't think what would help much as most the heavy weapons they can take kinda suck.

The weapons themselves are okay, but aren't putting out enough firepower because they can't be taken in large numbers. That's part of the reason Scatterlasers are so blasted good; they can be taken almost anywhere.

Scatterlasers have the best weapon profile in the game for the points AND are spammable. The assault cannon is overcosted, so it would have to be cheapened to even be good spammed. Everyone overvalues rending. Praying for "6s" isn't killing that Riptide or GMC.

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers have the best weapon profile in the game for the points AND are spammable. The assault cannon is overcosted, so it would have to be cheapened to even be good spammed. Everyone overvalues rending. Praying for "6s" isn't killing that Riptide or GMC.

...The point on which we differ is whether Scatterlasers SHOULD be spammable. Personally I think 'the best weapon profile in the game for the points' is better read as 'underpriced' than 'a good benchmark'.

(For the record Rending makes the assault cannon about twice as effective as a scatter laser against 2+ armoured targets regardless of Toughness and at least 30% more effective against 3+-armoured targets. If the scatter laser were more fairly priced at 15pts the assault cannon's 20pt price tag would be pretty accurate.)

Except the scatterlaser can do it from 36" away with impunity. A lot goes wrong when you get within 24" Like vindicators.

Scatterlasers should be 20 or 25 pts the way it plays on the table top. They are actually more valuable than powerfists.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers have the best weapon profile in the game for the points AND are spammable. The assault cannon is overcosted, so it would have to be cheapened to even be good spammed. Everyone overvalues rending. Praying for "6s" isn't killing that Riptide or GMC.

...The point on which we differ is whether Scatterlasers SHOULD be spammable. Personally I think 'the best weapon profile in the game for the points' is better read as 'underpriced' than 'a good benchmark'.

(For the record Rending makes the assault cannon about twice as effective as a scatter laser against 2+ armoured targets regardless of Toughness and at least 30% more effective against 3+-armoured targets. If the scatter laser were more fairly priced at 15pts the assault cannon's 20pt price tag would be pretty accurate.)

However, when we are stuck at the current prices, you NEED to compare two Scatterlasers and one Assault Cannon. Right there, they perform exactly the same against 4+ and then the Assault Cannon fails at everything else outside AV13-14, which nobody cares about because Gauss or Haywire or Grav etc.

Scatterlasers would be fair at 15 points for sure, though. A much greater range and cheaper price would be an okay comparison to the straight AP4 and Rending. However, the Assault Cannon still wouldn't be able to be taken in large numbers. That's part of the issue ya know.

15 pt is still too cheap. Scatterlaser is at least as good as the assault cannon, if not better.

Martel732 wrote:
15 pt is still too cheap. Scatterlaser is at least as good as the assault cannon, if not better.

...A scatterlaser is a 36" range assault cannon with no AP and no Rending. If 15pts is too cheap for a scatterlaser then 20pts is too cheap for an assault cannon.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
15 pt is still too cheap. Scatterlaser is at least as good as the assault cannon, if not better.

...A scatterlaser is a 36" range assault cannon with no AP and no Rending. If 15pts is too cheap for a scatterlaser then 20pts is too cheap for an assault cannon.

The extra foot of difference makes a pretty damn difference to be fair.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
15 pt is still too cheap. Scatterlaser is at least as good as the assault cannon, if not better.

...A scatterlaser is a 36" range assault cannon with no AP and no Rending. If 15pts is too cheap for a scatterlaser then 20pts is too cheap for an assault cannon.

The 36" range is worth a lot. Everyone underestimates this like they overestimate rending. Rending outright sucks without at least 12 shots, imo.

...Okay, then. If 12" of range is worth more than 50%-ish of your damage output why are heavy bolters so cheap?

Because losing a str and shot makes the heavy bolter far less versatile. S6 is a sweet spot.S5 is not.

Also don't forget that almost every platform for the assault cannon sucksm

So gaining 12" of range and losing 30-50% of your damage output is a positive change when it's a scatter laser and a negative change when it's a heavy bolter?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
So gaining 12" of range and losing 30-50% of your damage output is a positive change when it's a scatter laser and a negative change when it's a heavy bolter?

Heavy bolters do far less damage. It's a much bigger drop off than 30-50%. Those numbers seem high given how unreliable rending is anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, most heavy bolter platforms are terrible as well.

Martel732 wrote:
...It's a much bigger drop off than 30-50%. Those numbers seem high given how unreliable rending is anyway...

Fine. Show me your math. How much worse is a heavy bolter, exactly?

I'll be back in a bit.

Scatter Laser, Heavy Bolter, and Assault Cannon.

4 shots at S6 AP6, 3 shots at S5 AP4, and 4 shots at S6 AP4 Rending.

Against a Marine, you will kill an average of:
SL-8/3 hits, 40/18 wounds, 40/54 with saves... 74% of one marine
HB-6/3 hits (so 2), 4/3 wounds, 4/9 with saves... 44% of one marine
AC-8/3 hits, 32/18 regular wounds and 8/18 rends (16/9 and 4/9), 16/27 with saves plus 4/9... 103% of one marine

The assault cannon beats the scatter laser on marines. But it's only about 40% more effective for twice the cost, so...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Scatter Laser, Heavy Bolter, and Assault Cannon.

4 shots at S6 AP6, 3 shots at S5 AP4, and 4 shots at S6 AP4 Rending.

Against a Marine, you will kill an average of:
SL-8/3 hits, 40/18 wounds, 40/54 with saves... 74% of one marine
HB-6/3 hits (so 2), 4/3 wounds, 4/9 with saves... 44% of one marine
AC-8/3 hits, 32/18 regular wounds and 8/18 rends (16/9 and 4/9), 16/27 with saves plus 4/9... 103% of one marine

The assault cannon beats the scatter laser on marines. But it's only about 40% more effective for twice the cost, so...

If the scatter laser's cost is fair. If it isn't and should be closer to 15pts (which it is) then the assault cannon's price is pretty fair.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If the scatter laser's cost is fair. If it isn't and should be closer to 15pts (which it is) then the assault cannon's price is pretty fair.

That's legit. You're paying an extra 33% of points for an extra 40% effectiveness.

Let's check on, say, a GUO though... (no FNP or Armour.)

SL-8/3 hit, 8/9 wound, 16/27 with saves... 59% of a wound
HB-2 hit, 1/3 wound, 2/9 with saves... 22% of a wound
AC-8/3 hit, 8/9 wound, 16/27 with saves... 59% of a wound

So it's JUST as effective on a big ol' monstrous creature. It's basically exactly as effective against anything that DOESN'T rely on armour saves, such as Nurgle Daemon Princes, GUO, Lords of Change... Lot of Daemons, really.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
One thing they definitely need to be able to do is take 2 Heavy Weapons for every 5 Terminators. That way you get 4 in a max squad.

I don't think what would help much as most the heavy weapons they can take kinda suck.

The weapons themselves are okay, but aren't putting out enough firepower because they can't be taken in large numbers. That's part of the reason Scatterlasers are so blasted good; they can be taken almost anywhere.

Even if you could spam them they all cost to many points for the kind of platform they are on. No one wants to pay 25 points for a missile launcher that shots two times or 20 for an assault cannon on a T4 1W platform. At that kind of points you can just get centurions and they will be more durable and do more damage.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If the scatter laser's cost is fair. If it isn't and should be closer to 15pts (which it is) then the assault cannon's price is pretty fair.

That's legit. You're paying an extra 33% of points for an extra 40% effectiveness.

Let's check on, say, a GUO though... (no FNP or Armour.)

SL-8/3 hit, 8/9 wound, 16/27 with saves... 59% of a wound
HB-2 hit, 1/3 wound, 2/9 with saves... 22% of a wound
AC-8/3 hit, 8/9 wound, 16/27 with saves... 59% of a wound

So it's JUST as effective on a big ol' monstrous creature. It's basically exactly as effective against anything that DOESN'T rely on armour saves, such as Nurgle Daemon Princes, GUO, Lords of Change... Lot of Daemons, really.

So the two are exactly as effective against Monstrous Creatures with no armour. I don't know about you but pricing a weapon based on how it does against Greater Daemons as opposed to based on how it does against everything else in the game doesn't strike me as a useful approach.

Monstrous Creatures that don't NEED armour. Nurgle Princes, for instance, often have armour. They just happen to have a better jink save.

It seems common to me, since I'm a big Nurgle guy, but I admit, it's a relatively small margin. So let's check the math on Riptides!

SL-8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, 2/9 with saves... 22% of a wound
HB-2 hits, 2/3 wounds, 1/9 with saves... 11% of a wound
AC-8/3 hits, 8/9 wounds, 4/9 rends, 4/27 with armour saves and 8/27 with invuln saves, for 12/27 total... 44% of a wound

...

What? I thought it was gonna do worse, but turns out it outright DOUBLES the performance of a scatter laser when 2+ is a factor, even with an invuln!

Huh. Weird.

The above math doesn't look right. Let's see.

vs MEQs

Scatterlaser: 2.667 hits * .83333 wound *.3333 saves = 0.74 dead

Heavy bolter: 2 hits * .6666 wound * .333 saves = 0.44 dead

Assault cannon: 2.6667 hit * .16666 rend = 0.44 dead + 2.6667 hit * .66666 nonrend *.333 saves = 0.59 dead = 1.03 dead, which becomes 0.88 dead if the marine has cover.

Cover really makes the scatterlaser favorable in this case.

Also consider that it takes 13.5 scatterlaser shots to hull point out AV 11, but it takes 27 heavy bolter shots. That's nine heavy bolters to do the job of four scatterlasers!

VS Riptide without stims for simplicity

Scatterlaser: 2.667 hits * .50000 wound *.166666 save = 0.222 wounds cleared

Heavy bolter: 2 hits * .3333 wound * .16666 save = 0.111 wounds cleared

Assault cannon: 2.6667 hits * .1666 rend * .66666 save = 0.29 wounds + 2.6667 hits * .3333 nonrend *.166666 save = 0.15 wounds = 0.44 wounds cleared


The scatter laser kills 3/4 of a marine vs 1 marine from 12" further away than an assault cannon and for MUCH cheaper. That's assuming no cover. With cover, they become much closer. The heavy bolter kills less than half a marine.

Also are we comparing similar number of shots or points? You get 2 Scatterlasers for 2 Heavy Bolters or an Assault Cannon.

Looks like my math holds. Cool.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also are we comparing similar number of shots or points? You get 2 Scatterlasers for 2 Heavy Bolters or an Assault Cannon.

No, I did the results for one of each. You can simply double the numbers as you see fit.

The heavy bolter is frankly embarrassing. AP4 is a joke.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also are we comparing similar number of shots or points? You get 2 Scatterlasers for 2 Heavy Bolters or an Assault Cannon.

No, I did the results for one of each. You can simply double the numbers as you see fit.

The heavy bolter is frankly embarrassing. AP4 is a joke.

I'd contest that. AP4 is great-Tau, Scouts, Eldar, 'eavy Orks... AP4 counters a lot of stuff.

Heavy Bolters, though, suck. Heavy Flamers, though, kick butt.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also are we comparing similar number of shots or points? You get 2 Scatterlasers for 2 Heavy Bolters or an Assault Cannon.

We're using one of each gun to make a point about the costs.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also are we comparing similar number of shots or points? You get 2 Scatterlasers for 2 Heavy Bolters or an Assault Cannon.

No, I did the results for one of each. You can simply double the numbers as you see fit.

The heavy bolter is frankly embarrassing. AP4 is a joke.

I'd contest that. AP4 is great-Tau, Scouts, Eldar, 'eavy Orks... AP4 counters a lot of stuff.

Heavy Bolters, though, suck. Heavy Flamers, though, kick butt.

The problem is that most cover is 5++, though. So put in some shrubs, and all those units get 66% of their save back. AP4 is terrible. I stand by this.