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 Zewrath wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I just noticed something else... the Chimera doesn't have Command Tank anymore. So we can't even stuff our Officers into a Chimera to hide them from sniper fire.

Was this codex written by Matt Ward?

Hyperbolic nonsense. Matt Ward wrote terrible fluff, not rules... Well.. not compared to the rest. What you meant to say instead of Matt Ward was Phil Kelly. The evil Ward made the rules for chain of command, the order system and even fleet of foot for Eldar. Cruddace couldn't be creative if you pointed a gun to his head.

Furthermore, have you actually seen the Company Commander profile? 30 points for a dude that can dish out 2 orders that automatically succeeds. 3W and no instant death mechanics and literally cannot be targeted by anything but snipers, which aren't really that effective at dealing multiple wounds to begin with, especially not with a 5++. You can now take 2 of him for the exact same points of the former CCS, for twice the orders (which now auto passes, no less). Why would you then spend 75+ points on putting him inside a vehicle which makes the entire enemy force able to target him? He's been buffed mate.

If he was in the Chimera he'd have a boatload of ablative wounds, a slight range extension on his orders due to the Chimera's size, a 3+ save, and when the Chimera finally blows up the Commander would just hop out without a scratch on him. Wouldn't even have to spend extra points if you brought a Chimera for one of your infantry squads anyway, theirs would have two empty seats that he could use.

And considering mortal wounds ignore invuln saves, snipers are definitely a concern for something with only 3W. Have you not seen our own Ratlings?

I have. Have you? Why don't you tell me how many shots it would take to even kill one character?

Also, consider how danger close you are to the units you are buffing via orders. Remember that the suffer mortal wounds if they get caught.
You make a good point about the passenger size on a chimera, which is why this a better buff. Consider the stander mech list. Bring a Vanguard detachment with your normal army and you can now give bring a order buffers for 20-30 points with every veteran squad. 20 points for a platoon commander will automatically give re-rolls of 1's to your plasma vets. Not bad.

In an average round of shooting a squad of 10 Ratlings would inflict 2 unsaved standard wounds and 1 mortal wound against a T3 model with a 5++. Which would handily delete a 3 wound model every turn.

If there are snipers on the field, you better be blocking line of sight unless you want your officers dropping like flies.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
So we're standing here in confusion going "They want to nerf me? Me, whom everyone loves?"

You can't really call anything a buff/nerf without taking into account all of the other changes in the game. If a units goes up 5 pts but everything else in the game goes up 10, then what looks like a nerf is really a buff. People need to stop comparing 8th to 7th, and start comparing things internally within 8th. At least now the whole thing is leaked, we can start doing that.

+1

It's not a nerf, it's an overhaul. It's only a nerf in the context of 7th ed. We're past that now. At least try it out before you doom-say.

 ross-128 wrote:

In an average round of shooting a squad of 10 Ratlings would inflict 2 unsaved standard wounds and 1 mortal wound against a T3 model with a 5++. Which would handily delete a 3 wound model every turn.

If there are snipers on the field, you better be blocking line of sight unless you want your officers dropping like flies.

I don't see the problem then. 10 Ratlings with snipers is 70 points and they can, on avergage, drop 1 dude that costs 30 points. Snipers are not really common enough to be killing 2-4 characters every single turn. Again, you now have 2 order givers for the same price as 1 of the former. With alternating deployment, I really don't see how it's hard to make sure he's out of LOF, either behind a fortification, vehicle, building or just about anything. 1 Squad, sure, but problematic to hide 1 single model? I would postulate then, that the problem is with your table.

 Zewrath wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

In an average round of shooting a squad of 10 Ratlings would inflict 2 unsaved standard wounds and 1 mortal wound against a T3 model with a 5++. Which would handily delete a 3 wound model every turn.

If there are snipers on the field, you better be blocking line of sight unless you want your officers dropping like flies.

I don't see the problem then. 10 Ratlings with snipers is 70 points and they can, on avergage, drop 1 dude that costs 30 points. Snipers are not really common enough to be killing 2-4 characters every single turn. Again, you now have 2 order givers for the same price as 1 of the former. With alternating deployment, I really don't see how it's hard to make sure he's out of LOF, either behind a fortification, vehicle, building or just about anything. 1 Squad, sure, but problematic to hide 1 single model? I would postulate then, that the problem is with your table.

That's per turn, so over the course of the game they can kill 5 of them (even if in practical terms it's more likely to be 2 Company commanders and 3 Platoon commanders).

And keeping the commanders out of LoS sure would be easier if they had more than 6" of command range, and my infantry weren't split into dozens of different units that will all need vox-casters if I want to go that route. 3 wounds at T3 and 5+/5++ is quite fragile as characters go.

Now, sure, I'm likely to have more than one officer. Honestly between company commanders, platoon commanders, and Commissars, I'm probably going to have 10 or more officers in total. But the problem is that they're not there for redundancy, they're there because my blobs have been broken up into MSU and each officer only has enough range to oversee two or three squads at most.

 ross-128 wrote:


Was this codex written by Matt Ward?

I am a big critic of Ward but this is unfair. This is exactly the kind of thing that he would not do.
Ward or Vetok would underprice models or put mary sue-ish rules, but they are quite thorough.
Overlooking stuff is more Kelly or Cruddace.

I'm not seeing anything saying that officers can't issue Orders while embarked upon a Chimera...that was kind of a holdover from the core rules for 40k not a book specific thing.

In any regards:
Why the feth can't I give my Sergeants lasguns or hellguns?
Tau can take the same weapon as the rest of their squad, Marines of Loyalist and Traitor can take boltguns(or combi-bolters), Skitarii can take Galvanic Rifles or Radium Carbines, Eldar retain their basic weapons, etc.

So why the hell can my Guard Sergeants not take Lasguns or Hellguns?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:


Was this codex written by Matt Ward?

I am a big critic of Ward but this is unfair. This is exactly the kind of thing that he would not do.
Ward or Vetok would underprice models or put mary sue-ish rules, but they are quite thorough.
Overlooking stuff is more Kelly or Cruddace.

It's not "overlooking stuff" with Kelly or Cruddace. It's choosing not to do it because they don't think it "fits" the army.

See Cruddace's asinine logic from back in the day as to why Sergeants can't take lasguns("They'd want the pistol and CCW to show they're in charge!").

That is one thing that has always been a headscratcher. For some weird reason sergeants can take boltguns, but not lasguns. Nobody knows why, but it's been like that at least as far back as 5th edition.

One small thing that is nice: mortars didn't get a price increase on the weapon, so mortar HWTs only cost 9 points per model now. And they did end up being d6, so a handful of mortar teams are a rather cheap way to make it rain.

Edit: Regarding the Chimera, one of the universal rules for transports in 8th (and in previous editions as well) is "Unless otherwise noted, a model cannot do anything or be affected by anything while embarked in a transport."

Examples of "otherwise noted" would be fire ports, or the Chimera's former Command Tank rule. That rule is also why we've never been able to issue orders *to* a unit embarked in any transport.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So why the hell can my Guard Sergeants not take Lasguns or Hellguns?!

Because it's cool looking when your sergeant has a chainsword.

As a bonus, you can also give them a plasma pistol for 5 points!

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's not "overlooking stuff" with Kelly or Cruddace. It's choosing not to do it because they don't think it "fits" the army.

See Cruddace's asinine logic from back in the day as to why Sergeants can't take lasguns("They'd want the pistol and CCW to show they're in charge!").

Cruddace is.. special. But they just forget about things on the top of that.
But yeah, each one is quite awful on his own.

Also, agree on the sergeant, BTW

Like I said:
It's Cruddace's asinine logic. He kept trying to peddle some garbage about how "Sergeants wouldn't want the menial Lasgun".

Then give us a frigging Hellgun option instead.

Less and less enthused about 8E the more I see here. Terrible Russ tanks and main guns, critical unit or weapon overhauls did not occur for units like Ogryns and Hellguns/Hotshots, weird vehicle stat values and edition translations (T6 IG tanks...really? Armored Sentinels just get a 3+ over a 4+ and thats it?) Weird FoC allocations, etc.

Hopefully these end up working out, but a lot of this increasingly looks like typical GW "two steps forward, three back, two diagonal and one step to the side" of edition change shennanigans.

The Wyvern profile amused me, gets 4D6 shots...but a Battlecannon only gets D6 for what was a Large Blast weapon.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So why the hell can my Guard Sergeants not take Lasguns or Hellguns?!

Because it's cool looking when your sergeant has a chainsword.

As a bonus, you can also give them a plasma pistol for 5 points!

Or you can give them a Boltgun...but never a Lasgun...

I will say it's definitely not all negative.

Some positive things to note:
Mortars still being 5 points is quite good, especially with them being changed to d6 blasts. Mortar spam is going to be great.

Grenade launchers are also still only 5 points, so they didn't get the points hike that missile launchers did. Once again being d6 is a step up for them, and their s6 krak is a lot more threatening than it used to be.

The missile launcher point hike was only 5 points from 15 to 20. With the change to frag missiles and s8 krak having a much wider threat range than before, overall I'd say missile launchers came out ahead. Also they pair great with grenade launchers.

Heavy Bolters have gotten slightly cheaper, really breaking the trend for heavy weapons (from 10 points to 8). HB HWTs will only be 12 points per model now, a great way to get some dakka.

On the tank side, that change to heavy bolters means that a dakka Russ (Punisher with all the HBs and a Stubber) is looking good. The loss of rear armor also means the Punisher's 24" range is not as much of a liability.

The Officer of the Fleet can cause mortal wounds on a 4+. He's pretty much going to replace the Master of Ordinance as "boottillery", while the Master of Ordinance seems to have turned into more of a back-line buff unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or you can give them a Boltgun...but never a Lasgun...

They are to good for a lasgun lol

 Vaktathi wrote:

The Wyvern profile amused me, gets 4D6 shots...but a Battlecannon only gets D6 for what was a Large Blast weapon.

As if they took just 5 minutes to write down the rules and then went back to muhreens and eldar.
But probably is just me.

Just noticed that the original demolisher cannon leak (which was meh to start with) showed better stats than it actually got. You need 10 models in the target unit to go from D3 to D6 instead of 5


Also Sly Marbo lasted about 3 weeks

I know a lot of this stuff dosen't exactly look good, but I think we need to keep in mind the absolutely staggering amount of Command Points we can get from the detachments. Immediately when I saw the Regiment detachment i thought that guard was probably one of the few armies that would be able to field it in a normal game.

We're definitely going to be better at filling out detachments than any other faction. Like I mentioned in the tactics thread, we're probably going to have to turn our approach to FoC slots upside-down: units don't *compete* for slots anymore, they *pad* slots so we can take more detachments!

A determined Guard player can probably run two Brigade detachments in an 1850 point game for a staggering 18 command points.

A not-so-determined Guard player who isn't fond of his fast-attack options could easily run 4 or 5 Battalion detachments for 12-15 command points, and more FoC slots than he can shake a power-fist at.

Fast attack slots are mostly bad though. The -1 to hit when moving makes me want to keep them all still!

Yeah, it's unfortunate that they didn't come up with some kind of "Fast Vehicle" or "Hit and Run" keyword to let fast vehicles be, well, fast. Also kind of disappointed that the LRBT's exemption only applies to its main gun.

That 10" movement value is pretty sweet though...

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not seeing anything saying that officers can't issue Orders while embarked upon a Chimera...that was kind of a holdover from the core rules for 40k not a book specific thing.

IIRC it's in the transport rule, something in the line of "embarked cannot do anything inside a transport unless specifically stated otherwise" or something like that. Neither the chimera nor the voice of command rule have anything to circumvent that.

Chris521 wrote:
Just noticed that the original demolisher cannon leak (which was meh to start with) showed better stats than it actually got. You need 10 models in the target unit to go from D3 to D6 instead of 5

It's 5 in the unit entry. Oh, it's 10 in the back. So which is it? I would say that the datasheet takes precedence, as all the rules are supposed to be there. The summary is just supposed to be quick reference.

Not to be condescending, but I can't believe some of you guys, you really need to calm down, take a deep breath and consider these unit / weapon changes in light of not only the entire army list but the 8th edition rules as a whole. I am not seeing nerfs here at all, but many changes and many improvements. There are also a wealth of tactical options we never had before as well as a ton of interesting potential synergies.

One example among many, but consider if you will how easy it is going to be for the Guard to field a full Brigade detachment for 9 command points. We will be able to do this for a relatively tiny amount of points if you want to skimp on it. Now consider Creed for another 2 Command points. You are sitting at 11 command points already. Now consider you can turn those into, among other things, 11 re-rolls of anything you want. Now consider you are already re-rolling all your 1s to hit, or wound, due to orders. Want that Pask vanquisher to really drop a ton of bricks on something? You basically auto hit and re-roll your ones. Now you use your command points to reroll you lascannon / vanq cannon damage to put a pretty reliable 10-12 AP - 3 Damage on something and follow up with your overcharged plasma sponsons for even more pain with no risk of an overheat. Maybe you would prefer the 7th edition incarnation where you would be lucky to put 1 wound on anything.

Seriously, calm down, think about the overall context of these changes, and then judge them.

 Trickstick wrote:

Chris521 wrote:
Just noticed that the original demolisher cannon leak (which was meh to start with) showed better stats than it actually got. You need 10 models in the target unit to go from D3 to D6 instead of 5

It's 5 in the unit entry. Oh, it's 10 in the back. So which is it? I would say that the datasheet takes precedence, as all the rules are supposed to be there. The summary is just supposed to be quick reference.

5 for the Baneblade entry, and in Imperium 1 it's 5 for the Vindicator and 5 in the Space Marine Wargear list.

The 10 is almost certainly a typo. (Or rather than a typo, a rule change that didn't get fully propagated before print.)

 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, it's unfortunate that they didn't come up with some kind of "Fast Vehicle" or "Hit and Run" keyword to let fast vehicles be, well, fast. Also kind of disappointed that the LRBT's exemption only applies to its main gun.

That 10" movement value is pretty sweet though...

That's kind of what I see here.
I'm looking at the LRBT and I'm seeing it moving up 1 turn to get into position then sitting and shooting for the rest of the game.

Also, tank commanders are pretty darn good. 35 points to increase the damage output by 33%. and then increase the damage output of another russ by 8.33% -- though by far the best thing they do is let the plasma cannons supercharge with much less risk. 1/36 chance of explosion instead of 1/6.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Not to be condescending, but I can't believe some of you guys, you really need to calm down, take a deep breath and consider these unit / weapon changes in light of not only the entire army list but the 8th edition rules as a whole. I am not seeing nerfs here at all, but many changes and many improvements. There are also a wealth of tactical options we never had before as well as a ton of interesting potential synergies.

One example among many, but consider if you will how easy it is going to be for the Guard to field a full Brigade detachment for 9 command points. We will be able to do this for a relatively tiny amount of points if you want to skimp on it. Now consider Creed for another 2 Command points. You are sitting at 11 command points already. Now consider you can turn those into, among other things, 11 re-rolls of anything you want. Now consider you are already re-rolling all your 1s to hit, or wound, due to orders. Want that Pask vanquisher to really drop a ton of bricks on something? You basically auto hit and re-roll your ones. Now you use your command points to reroll you lascannon / vanq cannon damage to put a pretty reliable 10-12 AP - 3 Damage on something and follow up with your overcharged plasma sponsons for even more pain with no risk of an overheat. Maybe you would prefer the 7th edition incarnation where you would be lucky to put 1 wound on anything.

you're assuming some rather specific builds and that everything is in range for things like orders all the time here. Yeah, some armies built certain ways around specific mechanics will probably do just fine. Many others however will not however, and there's a lot that command points and orders arent going to fix because the problems arent stuff they address, and many longstanding internal balance issues remain apparently untouched, while other items appear to have simply been lazily translated (e.g. armored sentinels just being 3+ over 4+sv normal sentinels coming from Closed Topped AV12 vs Open top AV10).

This also isnt the first edition changeover for many people either

The biggest hurt by far in my opinion is the loss of blob squads. We're going to have to buy a lot more officers and commissars, because what was once 1 unit is now 5. Even with commissars being changed into a bubble, it's hard to get 5 squads in range of a 6" bubble without some serious conga-lines.

Fortunately, 4-point infantry will free up a few points for all those extra officers.

Also, reading the Valkyrie's rules again, grav-chute insertion is no ordinary deep strike. It happens during the Valkyrie's move instead of "at the end of your movement phase". So your movement phase is still going. The transport rule says units can move and shoot normally after getting out of a transport, and there's nothing in grav-chute insertion to contradict that.

So grav-chute insertion does, indirectly, ignore the 9" rule for deep strikes. Sure, you drop 9" away. Then you can move 6" before you attack. Flamethrower Valkyrie drops actually do work.

 Vaktathi wrote:
you're assuming some rather specific builds and that everything is in range for things like orders all the time here. Yeah, some armies built certain ways around specific mechanics will probably do just fine. Many others however will not however, and there's a lot that command points and orders arent going to fix because the problems arent stuff they address, and many longstanding internal balance issues remain apparently untouched, while other items appear to have simply been lazily translated (e.g. armored sentinels just being 3+ over 4+sv normal sentinels coming from Closed Topped AV12 vs Open top AV10).

This also isnt the first edition changeover for many people either

It isn't my first edition changeover, as I remember enjoying my regimental doctrines back in the day, but that doesn't really affect anything either way. I gave you one example of a powerful build that is extremely easy to use and play. The Pask example is basically foolproof and involves nothing more than Pask himself if you want to get right down to it. What "long standing internal balance issues" remain untouched after every single unit has been altered in some way? Why is giving an Armored Sentinel a 3+ save to represent it's improved armor "lazy"?

Edit: I don't want to get into an argument over something that boils down to our own perception of these changes, but I would encourage you to have a bit more of an open mind when considering these changes. I think you might be pleasantly surprised with how your army is going to play now.

I'm incredibly happy that blob squads were gone, but the Russ changes worry me greatly

Commissar Benny wrote:

We also lost munistorium priests
All baneblade variants are more expensive than Magnus
Ogryns & Bullgryns coming in at 30 & 35 ppm
We only have 7 characters. 1 of which is dead, the other is in a pokeball

Wonderful...

Ministorium Priests are still around. They affect all units with the Ministorium and Astra Militarum keywords. They don't have an Order or a Regiment.