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2017/08/13 20:44:16
Subject: Re:Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm obviously a neutral observer on this, and as I've said many a time before, I love American history
but I can never understand why there are statues of a man who was, after all, a traitor to the USA, and responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans.
Yes, you should never forget one of the most important chapters of American history, but these flags and statues belong in a museum and the history books, or brought out for historical re-enactment.
By their logic, you should be building statues of British generals of the American revolution: Howe, Cornwallis, Gage, etc etc
In England, statues of traitors hold prominent positions as well. Oliver Cromwell in my grandfather's own home town, Harry "Hotspur", Owen Glendower, Richard Neville, the list goes on. The south was given much more leniency than traitors normally get because of the need to heal the wounds of the country and put it back together, ugly compromises were made. But the US is not unique in that. Europeans were usually far more savage in those days of the defeated party, The pilgrimage of grace comes to mind as well as the cornish uprising.
Also you should be aware, most of these monuments were put up in the 20th century, and actually represent racist backlash to the civil Rights movements if their era.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/08/13 20:47:25
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument. Our grandparents would probably have the same traditionalist view of the society that those "nazis" have Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
As everyone, I condemn what happened in Charlottesville. Violence shouldn't happen, especially between compatriots. But this time SJWs have gone too far. Trying to erase the USA very own history is stupid, and dangerous. Then illegaly manifesting and opposing free speech, when presenting themselves as defenders of freedom... And eventually attacking people, fighting them ! IIRC, the white pride manifestation was legal, and pacifist. What happened is very sad, indeed, but do realize that the Right was pacifist, as far as I know (let me know if it wasn't what happened, I don't have enough info in France, sadly).
I remember many and many people refering to the President TRUMP as Hitler, or a nazi etc... And many were American ! That is seriously disturbing ! How can people refer to theirs compatriots as nazi, just because they disagree with them or because they tell mean things ? Telling bad things IS NOT the same as exterminating millions of people ! You know who send people into death camp today ? Who oppress and kill ? North Korea, for example. Communist North Korea. The leftists' dream come true, a whole country of communists, and this is what it looks like.
Today I learned that all our grandparents are white supremacists. Also my grandparents having survived the Second World War probably have some views on people waving flags with Swastikas on them, just guessing they aren't very nice views.
Again though, Hitler was not a socialist. I know how people love bringing that up. But Hitler made a point killing the only dedicated socialists in his party, he hated socialists. Nazis aren't socialists.
Also the SJW thing is stupid, removing statues isn't erasing history, its removing something glorifying something that should not be glorified (which is in essence what a statue does) in the opinion of a lot of people. Eastern Europe tore down statues of Lenin too, which was perfectly acceptable in most cases given their history with communism.
You can refer to people as Nazis when they actually act like them. Nazis are a lot of things and the defining factor of being a Nazi isn't exterminating millions, which after all wasn't the original intent of Nazi ideology, the war made them choose that option. They were already Nazis before those millions died.
Also North Korea being a leftist dream is hilarious, come on man
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/13 20:54:19
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2017/08/13 20:47:42
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument.
Our grandparents would probably have the same traditionalist view of the society that those "nazis" have
Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
As everyone, I condemn what happened in Charlottesville. Violence shouldn't happen, especially between compatriots.
But this time SJWs have gone too far. Trying to erase the USA very own history is stupid, and dangerous. Then illegaly manifesting and opposing free speech, when presenting themselves as defenders of freedom... And eventually attacking people, fighting them !
IIRC, the white pride manifestation was legal, and pacifist.
What happened is very sad, indeed, but do realize that the Right was pacifist, as far as I know (let me know if it wasn't what happened, I don't have enough info in France, sadly).
I remember many and many people refering to the President TRUMP as Hitler, or a nazi etc...
And many were American ! That is seriously disturbing ! How can people refer to theirs compatriots as nazi, just because they disagree with them or because they tell mean things ? Telling bad things IS NOT the same as exterminating millions of people !
You know who send people into death camp today ? Who oppress and kill ? North Korea, for example. Communist North Korea. The leftists' dream come true, a whole country of communists, and this is what it looks like.
Ironic given that you supported Le Pen
I supported her, her father before her, and I still support her because I think she is the most capable of protecting free speech and the laws in France.
When some others candidates tell, officially that secularism has to contrive sometimes , telling effectively that the law shouldn't be all the same everywhere in the country, or that pubs FORBIDDEN to women in Paris "is not a problem" wtf How do you want me to not vote for her ?
I love my country and my family, I don't want to let them a country wasted like Germany.
I want to have the right to express myself, to be free and the others to be free and express themselfs. This is why I supported her, and Trump and this kind of people. Because they are the only who care about this.
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Please cite the posts defending Nazis on this thread.
You mean the posts where people are saying we can't call them nazis because "the nazis are no longer around"? Or the people saying they have the right to call for extermination of entire groups of people.
Just stick to threatening to kill people on message boards it works better for you
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument.
Our grandparents would probably have the same traditionalist view of the society that those "nazis" have
Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
The Nazis weren't socialist either, just like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is neither democratic or a republic and how the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.
Ouze wrote: I guess I'm just dumb, but this whole thread seems to reek of yelling "no true scotsman nazi".
We used to have this argument about ISIL guys, remember? When you'd have a lone wolf attack by some guy who would scream out he was associated with ISIL. Then it turned out this guy has never actually evere been in contact with ISIL ever, but they believe any publicity is good publicity so they would take credit for the attack. We'd argue, what does it mean to actually be in ISIL? Do you have to go overseas to a training camp, or can you just watch some videos on youtube, or what?
This is useful because this is one of the few times that we actually sort of came to consensus that was widely agreed upon regardless of partisan stripe. In at least 2 threads that I recall, we decided if you want to call yourself a member of ISIL, we have no problem with you being charged with all sorts of anti-terrorism crimes for (whatever you did). If you want to join stupid clubs, you win stupid prizes.
As an analogy, I think it's useful here. People have the right to self determination, and if someone wants to carry a Nazi flag, wear a T-shirt that says Jews are inferior, and scream blood and soil while marching, it feels a little disingenuous to me to decide he's not really a Nazi. At best it seems to be oblivious, and at worse it seems like you're trying to rationalize away some unpleasant truths because you don't like what they say about a group you have sympathies for, or identify with, or what have you - I'm not trying to dogwhistle call someone a nazi, because... look, I don't think I'm putting this as artfully as I could be, but what I'm trying to say is that this whole "they're not really nazis" thing feels like is a way of not seeing something you don't want to see.
I don't think you're dumb but I think you're giving too much thought to this "no true Nazi" angle that is really an irrelevant tangent. Whether people wear the shirts, hold the flags and promote the agendas and politics of Nazism because they desperate angry white supremacists or because they want to conquer Europe and exterminate the Jews or whatever, doesn't matter. Whether they are true or untrue Nazis they still have the right to wear whatever shirt they want, advocate whatever political agenda they want and hold whatever opinions they want. Supporting our collective free speech rights has nothing to do with supporting or defending any particular speech. The only reason the "true Nazi" argument came up was due to the insistence that an exemption to free speech protection had to be made for Nazis because Nazis are so bad. The counter argument was made that the people in this scenario don't really pose the same threat as the Nazi party in 1930s Germany and really aren't enough of a threat to warrant such an over reaction. Nobody is arguing that Nazism and white supremacy are good ideas, they are clearly bad ideas but here in the US we're free to have bad ideas and to express those bad ideas without being suppressed by the State or physically attacked by other people.
You are, however, not allowed to incite violence. Advocating national socialism is inherently inciting violence, as we've already established. That's illegal in the US.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2017/08/13 20:54:12
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Bromsy wrote: I think limiting the ability to freely assemble and voice your beliefs is bad.
I think Nazi ideology is bad.
I think running over people with cars is bad.
I think many people in this thread are talking past each other.
That is about all I can commit to without getting invested in this more, and I have a tiny baby I'd rather be hanging out with.
I agree with all of that, but I'd like to add a few.
Hitting people over the head with a bike lock is bad.
Throwing smoke grenades at people is bad.
Throwing bricks at people is bad.
Throwing just about anything at people is bad.
Advocating punching people who say things you dislike is bad.
Blocking roads and attacking cars is bad.
Setting fire to cars and buildings is bad.
I'd like to add a caveat to the last bit:
"Unless it's warranted."
Sometimes, hitting someone over the head with a bike lock is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, throwing a smoke grenade at someone is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, throwing bricks at people is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, throwing just about anything at people is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, punching people who are literal Nazis is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, blocking roads and attacking cars is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, destroying property is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
My desire to know more intensifies.
Could you explain us how and when it is morally acceptable to do this kind of things ?
When you disagree with someone ? Or when they don't vote democrate ? Or if they are white maybe ?
Please, care to elaborate ?
1) When your (or someone you care about's) life is in danger and you are defending yourself (or them).
2) when you are a police officer or a soldier using a smoke grenade
3) When your (or someone you care about's) life is in danger and you are defending yourself (or them).
4) When your (or someone you care about's) life is in danger and you are defending yourself (or them).
5) When they are advocating for the 'cleansing' of you or someone you care about.
6) When you are protesting an injustice in the world and trying to draw attention to your cause or the issue.
7) When you are protesting an injustice in the world and trying to draw attention to your cause or the issue.
If you really believe #5,6,7 are correct then you're working with a set of laws and ethics that are very different from the US legal system and society. Advocating genocide is deplorable but not make responding with physical violence legally or ethically justifiable. A perceived injustice does not make attacking people driving down the street in cars or destroying other people's property ethically or legally justified.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2017/08/13 20:54:16
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
In a thread about a vehicular attack against counter-protestors at a pro white nationalist protest, hardly any posts have been about the attack. But there are lots of posts about how the nazi flag waving guys aren't really nazis, how it's the lefts fault they got mowed down by a car, how "both sides are bad" after one side committed murder, and a weird focus on people saying "it's not okay to say we should punch people" in the aftermath of a murderous attack.
A lot was revealed about people during the course of this thread.
2017/08/13 20:55:05
Subject: Re:Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Before you know it. One cannot play Nazi's...woops Germans in any WWII based video games.
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2017/08/13 20:55:29
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Please cite the posts defending Nazis on this thread.
You mean the posts where people are saying we can't call them nazis because "the nazis are no longer around"? Or the people saying they have the right to call for extermination of entire groups of people.
Just stick to threatening to kill people on message boards it works better for you
1. Calling them racists or Neo Nazis is appropriate. However I saw Klan nomenclature on some (worse than neos in my opinion). I am just saying Nazis were a specific group that no longer exist.
2. I have not seen anyone post such in this thread.
3. I don't threaten over the internet, or even in person. Well my breath is pretty threatening...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/08/13 20:55:48
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument.
We are talking about actual nazis walking around displaying classical nazi and fascist iconography while perfoming nazi salutes and chanting classical fascist rallying points. When you've got a group of people chanting "blood and soil" it is not an insult to categorise them as nazis. It is simple observation.
godardc wrote: Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
The deal with the national socialism of the original Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei was to combine racial supermacy with economic socialism. The entire party was funded in part out of opposition to socialist ideology. They really weren't very socialist. They just wanted good stuff for aryans.
2017/08/13 20:56:01
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument. Our grandparents would probably have the same traditionalist view of the society that those "nazis" have Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
As everyone, I condemn what happened in Charlottesville. Violence shouldn't happen, especially between compatriots. But this time SJWs have gone too far. Trying to erase the USA very own history is stupid, and dangerous. Then illegaly manifesting and opposing free speech, when presenting themselves as defenders of freedom... And eventually attacking people, fighting them ! IIRC, the white pride manifestation was legal, and pacifist. What happened is very sad, indeed, but do realize that the Right was pacifist, as far as I know (let me know if it wasn't what happened, I don't have enough info in France, sadly).
I remember many and many people refering to the President TRUMP as Hitler, or a nazi etc... And many were American ! That is seriously disturbing ! How can people refer to theirs compatriots as nazi, just because they disagree with them or because they tell mean things ? Telling bad things IS NOT the same as exterminating millions of people ! You know who send people into death camp today ? Who oppress and kill ? North Korea, for example. Communist North Korea. The leftists' dream come true, a whole country of communists, and this is what it looks like.
Today I learned that all our grandparents are white supremacists. Also my grandparents having survived the Second World War probably have some views on people waving flags with Swastikas on them, just guessing they aren't very nice views.
Again though, Hitler was not a socialist. I know how people love bringing that up. But Hitler made a point killing the only dedicated socialists in his party, he hated socialists. Nazis aren't socialists.
Also the SJW thing is stupid, removing statues isn't erasing history, its removing something glorifying something that should not be glorified (which is in essence what a statue does) in the opinion of a lot of people. Eastern Europe tore down statues of Lenin too, which was perfectly acceptable in most cases given their history with communism.
You can refer to people as Nazis when they actually act like them. Nazis are a lot of things and the defining factor of being a Nazi isn't exterminating millions, which after all wasn't the original intent of Nazi ideology, the war made them chose that option. They were already Nazis before those millions died.
Also North Korea being a leftist dream is hilarious, come on man
According to the SJWs, I think most of our beloved grandparents would be called nazis, indeed. But they are not, we agree. See how stupid it is ? Because they have grown up a long time ago, and so they have a traditional education. I don't think my grandparents even know what lgbtqia etc etc means,so they are probably miles away from calling a woman with a dick "sir" or a man with boobs 'lady". Ok, let NK out of this. Take Venezuela then. Isn't it a wonderful socialist country ? See the results. When you let the power to this kind of people, this is what happens, everytime. You do know that even BEFORE the war, Nazis, the only true ones, killed at last thousands in camps ? Aktion T4 for example.
I know and agree, countries from Eastern Europe removed theirs statuts. And I keep thinking it is stupid. I'm no communist, but if It were a Lenin statut in my town, I would fight (not physically, don't worry I'm note a sjw) to keep it. Because it would be part of my history, and my town.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/13 20:57:36
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument.
Our grandparents would probably have the same traditionalist view of the society that those "nazis" have
Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
The Nazis weren't socialist either, just like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is neither democratic or a republic and how the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.
Ouze wrote: I guess I'm just dumb, but this whole thread seems to reek of yelling "no true scotsman nazi".
We used to have this argument about ISIL guys, remember? When you'd have a lone wolf attack by some guy who would scream out he was associated with ISIL. Then it turned out this guy has never actually evere been in contact with ISIL ever, but they believe any publicity is good publicity so they would take credit for the attack. We'd argue, what does it mean to actually be in ISIL? Do you have to go overseas to a training camp, or can you just watch some videos on youtube, or what?
This is useful because this is one of the few times that we actually sort of came to consensus that was widely agreed upon regardless of partisan stripe. In at least 2 threads that I recall, we decided if you want to call yourself a member of ISIL, we have no problem with you being charged with all sorts of anti-terrorism crimes for (whatever you did). If you want to join stupid clubs, you win stupid prizes.
As an analogy, I think it's useful here. People have the right to self determination, and if someone wants to carry a Nazi flag, wear a T-shirt that says Jews are inferior, and scream blood and soil while marching, it feels a little disingenuous to me to decide he's not really a Nazi. At best it seems to be oblivious, and at worse it seems like you're trying to rationalize away some unpleasant truths because you don't like what they say about a group you have sympathies for, or identify with, or what have you - I'm not trying to dogwhistle call someone a nazi, because... look, I don't think I'm putting this as artfully as I could be, but what I'm trying to say is that this whole "they're not really nazis" thing feels like is a way of not seeing something you don't want to see.
I don't think you're dumb but I think you're giving too much thought to this "no true Nazi" angle that is really an irrelevant tangent. Whether people wear the shirts, hold the flags and promote the agendas and politics of Nazism because they desperate angry white supremacists or because they want to conquer Europe and exterminate the Jews or whatever, doesn't matter. Whether they are true or untrue Nazis they still have the right to wear whatever shirt they want, advocate whatever political agenda they want and hold whatever opinions they want. Supporting our collective free speech rights has nothing to do with supporting or defending any particular speech. The only reason the "true Nazi" argument came up was due to the insistence that an exemption to free speech protection had to be made for Nazis because Nazis are so bad. The counter argument was made that the people in this scenario don't really pose the same threat as the Nazi party in 1930s Germany and really aren't enough of a threat to warrant such an over reaction. Nobody is arguing that Nazism and white supremacy are good ideas, they are clearly bad ideas but here in the US we're free to have bad ideas and to express those bad ideas without being suppressed by the State or physically attacked by other people.
You are, however, not allowed to incite violence. Advocating national socialism is inherently inciting violence, as we've already established. That's illegal in the US.
No, advocating national socialism is not inherently inciting violence. Advocating national socialism isn't illegal anywhere in the US. It isn't illegal to advocate any paerticular political ideology anywhere in the US.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/13 20:58:43
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2017/08/13 20:59:35
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument.
Our grandparents would probably have the same traditionalist view of the society that those "nazis" have
Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
As everyone, I condemn what happened in Charlottesville. Violence shouldn't happen, especially between compatriots.
But this time SJWs have gone too far. Trying to erase the USA very own history is stupid, and dangerous. Then illegaly manifesting and opposing free speech, when presenting themselves as defenders of freedom... And eventually attacking people, fighting them !
IIRC, the white pride manifestation was legal, and pacifist.
What happened is very sad, indeed, but do realize that the Right was pacifist, as far as I know (let me know if it wasn't what happened, I don't have enough info in France, sadly).
I remember many and many people refering to the President TRUMP as Hitler, or a nazi etc...
And many were American ! That is seriously disturbing ! How can people refer to theirs compatriots as nazi, just because they disagree with them or because they tell mean things ? Telling bad things IS NOT the same as exterminating millions of people !
You know who send people into death camp today ? Who oppress and kill ? North Korea, for example. Communist North Korea. The leftists' dream come true, a whole country of communists, and this is what it looks like.
Today I learned that all our grandparents are white supremacists. Also my grandparents having survived the Second World War probably have some views on people waving flags with Swastikas on them, just guessing they aren't very nice views.
Again though, Hitler was not a socialist. I know how people love bringing that up. But Hitler made a point killing the only dedicated socialists in his party, he hated socialists. Nazis aren't socialists.
Also the SJW thing is stupid, removing statues isn't erasing history, its removing something glorifying something that should not be glorified (which is in essence what a statue does) in the opinion of a lot of people. Eastern Europe tore down statues of Lenin too, which was perfectly acceptable in most cases given their history with communism.
You can refer to people as Nazis when they actually act like them. Nazis are a lot of things and the defining factor of being a Nazi isn't exterminating millions, which after all wasn't the original intent of Nazi ideology, the war made them chose that option. They were already Nazis before those millions died.
Also North Korea being a leftist dream is hilarious, come on man
My grandfather didn't survive the Second World War. He's buried in a military cemetery in Italy. As a result I have some very, very strong opinions about anyone who marches under a far right flag.
in addition, my wife is not white. I'm thankful that I live in a country where people's freedom of speech does not extend to being able to belittle or demean her for having the wrong density of melanin.
These right wing scum are not pacifists. Their very beliefs are an act of violence, not literal, but mental and spiritual violence against anyone who does not fit their narrow definition of what race, religion or sexuality they believe to be what their country should consist of.
2017/08/13 20:59:40
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Please cite the posts defending Nazis on this thread.
You mean the posts where people are saying we can't call them nazis because "the nazis are no longer around"? Or the people saying they have the right to call for extermination of entire groups of people.
Just stick to threatening to kill people on message boards it works better for you
1. Calling them racists or Neo Nazis is appropriate. However I saw Klan nomenclature on some (worse than neos in my opinion). I am just saying Nazis were a specific group that no longer exist.
2. I have not seen anyone post such in this thread.
3. I don't threaten over the internet, or even in person. Well my breath is pretty threatening...
1) The klan and neo nazis are becoming one and the same and the groups are merging slowly but surely
2) It is on literally on every page open your eyes and actually read
3) I guess that is why you disappeared for a few weeks after I saw you threaten someone with death in this very sub forum
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument.
Our grandparents would probably have the same traditionalist view of the society that those "nazis" have
Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
As everyone, I condemn what happened in Charlottesville. Violence shouldn't happen, especially between compatriots.
But this time SJWs have gone too far. Trying to erase the USA very own history is stupid, and dangerous. Then illegaly manifesting and opposing free speech, when presenting themselves as defenders of freedom... And eventually attacking people, fighting them !
IIRC, the white pride manifestation was legal, and pacifist.
What happened is very sad, indeed, but do realize that the Right was pacifist, as far as I know (let me know if it wasn't what happened, I don't have enough info in France, sadly).
I remember many and many people refering to the President TRUMP as Hitler, or a nazi etc...
And many were American ! That is seriously disturbing ! How can people refer to theirs compatriots as nazi, just because they disagree with them or because they tell mean things ? Telling bad things IS NOT the same as exterminating millions of people !
You know who send people into death camp today ? Who oppress and kill ? North Korea, for example. Communist North Korea. The leftists' dream come true, a whole country of communists, and this is what it looks like.
Today I learned that all our grandparents are white supremacists. Also my grandparents having survived the Second World War probably have some views on people waving flags with Swastikas on them, just guessing they aren't very nice views.
Again though, Hitler was not a socialist. I know how people love bringing that up. But Hitler made a point killing the only dedicated socialists in his party, he hated socialists. Nazis aren't socialists.
Also the SJW thing is stupid, removing statues isn't erasing history, its removing something glorifying something that should not be glorified (which is in essence what a statue does) in the opinion of a lot of people. Eastern Europe tore down statues of Lenin too, which was perfectly acceptable in most cases given their history with communism.
You can refer to people as Nazis when they actually act like them. Nazis are a lot of things and the defining factor of being a Nazi isn't exterminating millions, which after all wasn't the original intent of Nazi ideology, the war made them chose that option. They were already Nazis before those millions died.
Also North Korea being a leftist dream is hilarious, come on man
According to the SJWs, I think most of our beloved grandparents would be called nazis, indeed. But they are not, we agree. See how stupid it is ?
Because they have grown up a long time ago, and so they have a traditional education. I don't think my grandparents even know what lgbtqia etc etc means,so they are probably miles away from calling a woman with a dick "sir" or a man with boobs 'lady".
Ok, let NK out of this.
Take Venezuela then. Isn't it a wonderful socialist country ? See the results. When you let the power to this kind of people, this is what happens, everytime.
You do know that even BEFORE the war, Nazis, the only true ones, killed at last thousands in camps ? Aktion T4 for example.
I know and agree, countries from Eastern Europe removed theirs statuts. And I keep thinking it is stupid. I'm no communist, but if It were a Lenin statut in my town, I would fight (not physically, don't worry I'm note a sjw) to keep it.
Because it would be part of my history, and my town.
I don't understand your argument.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/08/13 21:00:22
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Bromsy wrote: I think limiting the ability to freely assemble and voice your beliefs is bad.
I think Nazi ideology is bad.
I think running over people with cars is bad.
I think many people in this thread are talking past each other.
That is about all I can commit to without getting invested in this more, and I have a tiny baby I'd rather be hanging out with.
I agree with all of that, but I'd like to add a few.
Hitting people over the head with a bike lock is bad.
Throwing smoke grenades at people is bad.
Throwing bricks at people is bad.
Throwing just about anything at people is bad.
Advocating punching people who say things you dislike is bad.
Blocking roads and attacking cars is bad.
Setting fire to cars and buildings is bad.
I'd like to add a caveat to the last bit:
"Unless it's warranted."
Sometimes, hitting someone over the head with a bike lock is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, throwing a smoke grenade at someone is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, throwing bricks at people is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, throwing just about anything at people is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, punching people who are literal Nazis is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, blocking roads and attacking cars is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
Sometimes, destroying property is morally, ethically, and legally justified.
My desire to know more intensifies.
Could you explain us how and when it is morally acceptable to do this kind of things ?
When you disagree with someone ? Or when they don't vote democrate ? Or if they are white maybe ?
Please, care to elaborate ?
1) When your (or someone you care about's) life is in danger and you are defending yourself (or them).
2) when you are a police officer or a soldier using a smoke grenade
3) When your (or someone you care about's) life is in danger and you are defending yourself (or them).
4) When your (or someone you care about's) life is in danger and you are defending yourself (or them).
5) When they are advocating for the 'cleansing' of you or someone you care about.
6) When you are protesting an injustice in the world and trying to draw attention to your cause or the issue.
7) When you are protesting an injustice in the world and trying to draw attention to your cause or the issue.
If you really believe #5,6,7 are correct then you're working with a set of laws and ethics that are very different from the US legal system and society. Advocating genocide is deplorable but not make responding with physical violence legally or ethically justifiable. A perceived injustice does not make attacking people driving down the street in cars or destroying other people's property ethically or legally justified.
"Advocating genocide" could be viewed as threatening the people you plan to genocide, no?
Attacking people driving down the street in cars is different than attacking cars.
Destroying other people's property because of a perceived injustice is literally what happened during the revolution that founded our country. The Boston Tea Party is the most commonly cited example.
2017/08/13 21:00:23
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument.
We are talking about actual nazis walking around displaying classical nazi and fascist iconography while perfoming nazi salutes and chanting classical fascist rallying points. When you've got a group of people chanting "blood and soil" it is not an insult to categorise them as nazis. It is simple observation.
godardc wrote: Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
The deal with the national socialism of the original Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei was to combine racial supermacy with economic socialism. The entire party was funded in part out of opposition to socialist ideology. They really weren't very socialist. They just wanted good stuff for aryans.
Yeah, there are actual neo nazis it would seem. But I get the feeling that every guy that went at the manifestation is being called a nazi, when they were only a few. Let avoid amalgam, guys, like everytime.
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument.
We are talking about actual nazis walking around displaying classical nazi and fascist iconography while perfoming nazi salutes and chanting classical fascist rallying points. When you've got a group of people chanting "blood and soil" it is not an insult to categorise them as nazis. It is simple observation.
godardc wrote: Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
The deal with the national socialism of the original Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei was to combine racial supermacy with economic socialism. The entire party was funded in part out of opposition to socialist ideology. They really weren't very socialist. They just wanted good stuff for aryans.
Yeah, there are actual neo nazis it would seem. But I get the feeling that every guy that went at the manifestation is being called a nazi, when they were only a few. Let avoid amalgam, guys, like everytime.
I think it's safe to say that anyone not attending the rally under threat of death was either a Nazi or didn't disagree enough with them to leave the rally. The second part is almost more terrifying than the first; the first I always knew existed.
2017/08/13 21:03:56
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Back to topic. CNN is showing one if the rally organizers was just shouted down by a crowd and driven from the field. Excellent.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/08/13 21:04:53
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
No, advocating national socialism is not inherently inciting violence. Advocating national socialism isn't illegal anywhere in the US. It isn't illegal to advocate any paerticular political ideology anywhere in the US.
Yes it is. See the Hitler quotes earlier in the thread. Violence is inherent to the Nazis, you cannot advocate National Socialism without advocating violence.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2017/08/13 21:07:45
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
No, advocating national socialism is not inherently inciting violence. Advocating national socialism isn't illegal anywhere in the US. It isn't illegal to advocate any paerticular political ideology anywhere in the US.
National Socialism is an inherently violent ideology. There is no way to enforce the ideals it espouses without at the very least the legitimate threat of violence against those who would resist.
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2017/08/13 21:07:51
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Ustrello wrote: Man look at all of these nazi defenders, oh how our grandparents would weep
Our grandparents wouldn't call someone they disagree with "nazi" just because they can't win an argument. Our grandparents would probably have the same traditionalist view of the society that those "nazis" have Our grandparents fought actual nazis, not the SJW of today (are they even aware of what nazi means ? National Socialism. I can tell you, by being in relation with some alt right members, that those guys aren't socialist, at all. So calling them nazis is wrong at so many levels...).
As everyone, I condemn what happened in Charlottesville. Violence shouldn't happen, especially between compatriots. But this time SJWs have gone too far. Trying to erase the USA very own history is stupid, and dangerous. Then illegaly manifesting and opposing free speech, when presenting themselves as defenders of freedom... And eventually attacking people, fighting them ! IIRC, the white pride manifestation was legal, and pacifist. What happened is very sad, indeed, but do realize that the Right was pacifist, as far as I know (let me know if it wasn't what happened, I don't have enough info in France, sadly).
I remember many and many people refering to the President TRUMP as Hitler, or a nazi etc... And many were American ! That is seriously disturbing ! How can people refer to theirs compatriots as nazi, just because they disagree with them or because they tell mean things ? Telling bad things IS NOT the same as exterminating millions of people ! You know who send people into death camp today ? Who oppress and kill ? North Korea, for example. Communist North Korea. The leftists' dream come true, a whole country of communists, and this is what it looks like.
Today I learned that all our grandparents are white supremacists. Also my grandparents having survived the Second World War probably have some views on people waving flags with Swastikas on them, just guessing they aren't very nice views.
Again though, Hitler was not a socialist. I know how people love bringing that up. But Hitler made a point killing the only dedicated socialists in his party, he hated socialists. Nazis aren't socialists.
Also the SJW thing is stupid, removing statues isn't erasing history, its removing something glorifying something that should not be glorified (which is in essence what a statue does) in the opinion of a lot of people. Eastern Europe tore down statues of Lenin too, which was perfectly acceptable in most cases given their history with communism.
You can refer to people as Nazis when they actually act like them. Nazis are a lot of things and the defining factor of being a Nazi isn't exterminating millions, which after all wasn't the original intent of Nazi ideology, the war made them chose that option. They were already Nazis before those millions died.
Also North Korea being a leftist dream is hilarious, come on man
According to the SJWs, I think most of our beloved grandparents would be called nazis, indeed. But they are not, we agree. See how stupid it is ? Because they have grown up a long time ago, and so they have a traditional education. I don't think my grandparents even know what lgbtqia etc etc means,so they are probably miles away from calling a woman with a dick "sir" or a man with boobs 'lady". Ok, let NK out of this. Take Venezuela then. Isn't it a wonderful socialist country ? See the results. When you let the power to this kind of people, this is what happens, everytime. You do know that even BEFORE the war, Nazis, the only true ones, killed at last thousands in camps ? Aktion T4 for example.
I know and agree, countries from Eastern Europe removed theirs statuts. And I keep thinking it is stupid. I'm not communist, but if It were a Lenin statut in my town, I would fight (not physically, don't worry I'm note a sjw) to keep it. Because it would be part of my history, and my town.
Well seeing as SJW means whatever the popular flavor of the month is to its opponents I don't think so. Some people certainly go too far with the Nazi thing, but in this case most definitely not.
Being a Nazi and having traditional values are also two completely different beasts. One can be conservative and even bigoted, the other is downright inhuman.
Actually Venezuela is no different from any other country. We have had plenty of right wing dictatorships in South America murdering people. The nature of that particular beast is oppressive or murderous government, not any particular slant of left/right. Holding up Venezuela as some sort of defenitepath is like holding up Pinochet in Chile for 'right' wing values.
I do know about the T4 Aktion, did you know they were already Nazis BEFORE that? Regardless, T4 was not aimed at Jews or other ethnic groups like later, but at the undesirable German population, the one you couldn't really push on another country such as was envisaged with the Jews at first. Nazis didn't become Nazis the second they murdered someone, what a weird arbitrary line that would be. Some of those protesters there clearly identify with the Nazis and go out of their way to show it, ergo they are Nazis. Not all Nazis murdered people, certainly not at first.
So you basically would defend a statue of Hitler in Auschwitz, as its "part of my history, and my town" in your words? The people who used Lenin as an icon did horrible things to those people and their towns. The same goes for African Americans, the statue of Lee represents a very wrong and dark history to them that is apparently still ok to glorify to some, even though it represent treating people as property.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/13 21:15:54
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2017/08/13 21:09:16
Subject: Re:Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm obviously a neutral observer on this, and as I've said many a time before, I love American history
but I can never understand why there are statues of a man who was, after all, a traitor to the USA, and responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans.
Yes, you should never forget one of the most important chapters of American history, but these flags and statues belong in a museum and the history books, or brought out for historical re-enactment.
By their logic, you should be building statues of British generals of the American revolution: Howe, Cornwallis, Gage, etc etc
In England, statues of traitors hold prominent positions as well. Oliver Cromwell in my grandfather's own home town, Harry "Hotspur", Owen Glendower, Richard Neville, the list goes on. The south was given much more leniency than traitors normally get because of the need to heal the wounds of the country and put it back together, ugly compromises were made. But the US is not unique in that. Europeans were usually far more savage in those days of the defeated party, The pilgrimage of grace comes to mind as well as the cornish uprising.
Also you should be aware, most of these monuments were put up in the 20th century, and actually represent racist backlash to the civil Rights movements if their era.
most of them within 35-50 years of the war, since it ended in 1865, that does make them in the 20th century (1900-2000) when the bulk of them were made/sculpted whatever, they had living veterans and their children around.by comparison, the traitor cromwell had his erected in 1899, he died in 1658, with obviously no living children or grandchildren in presence. I dont believe that most of them are racist backlash, the north was no less racist than the south who were about as racist as the other 99% of the globe. I would believe more recent racists hold those monuments for those reasons.
2017/08/13 21:12:10
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
No, advocating national socialism is not inherently inciting violence. Advocating national socialism isn't illegal anywhere in the US. It isn't illegal to advocate any paerticular political ideology anywhere in the US.
Yes it is. See the Hitler quotes earlier in the thread. Violence is inherent to the Nazis, you cannot advocate National Socialism without advocating violence.
That's a quote still happening today in some countries. I pointed this out already. Its a good quote which still is happening today regardless of Nazism
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2017/08/13 21:12:34
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Sorry guy.
I wanted to highlight that the "nazi" calling can change according to who you ask.
A lot of people fought the nazis, and won.
But people of this time, were living in a different world (segregation, etc..).
They were, and probably still are, a lot more conservative that most of the people today..
People of the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's would probably be called "biggots", "nazis" etc... By the very people of BLM, the feminists etc when they actually fouhgt the nazis. I wanted to highlight how absurd the situation has become.
So all this nazi calling is a nonsense, to me. You could call nazi almost everyone if you wanted, but it is not good, as it show a lack a tolerance and comprehension.
We don't have to fight each other, so violently. Those people just want to keep their history, their values. Let them in peace.
Did I get it right this time ?^^
d-usa wrote: In a thread about a vehicular attack against counter-protestors at a pro white nationalist protest, hardly any posts have been about the attack. But there are lots of posts about how the nazi flag waving guys aren't really nazis, how it's the lefts fault they got mowed down by a car, how "both sides are bad" after one side committed murder, and a weird focus on people saying "it's not okay to say we should punch people" in the aftermath of a murderous attack.
A lot was revealed about people during the course of this thread.
In a thread about the tragedy of somebody deliberately murdering and maiming people via crashing into a crowd with a car because of a difference in ideology I think it's very important to state that political differences don't justify a violent response. Recognizing that you shouldnt physically attack people who reject ideas you endorse includes acknowedging that running people over with a car because they oppose your Nazism is wrong. The appropriate response to somebody who promotes an idea or opinion you disagree with or who disagrees with an opinion or idea you support isn't a violent physical assault. You can debate them or ignore them but it's not acceptable to hurt them.
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2017/08/13 21:14:25
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Disciple of Fate wrote: Today I learned that all our grandparents are white supremacists. Also my grandparents having survived the Second World War probably have some views on people waving flags with Swastikas on them, just guessing they aren't very nice views.
Again though, Hitler was not a socialist. I know how people love bringing that up. But Hitler made a point killing the only dedicated socialists in his party, he hated socialists. Nazis aren't socialists.
Also the SJW thing is stupid, removing statues isn't erasing history, its removing something glorifying something that should not be glorified (which is in essence what a statue does) in the opinion of a lot of people. Eastern Europe tore down statues of Lenin too, which was perfectly acceptable in most cases given their history with communism.
You can refer to people as Nazis when they actually act like them. Nazis are a lot of things and the defining factor of being a Nazi isn't exterminating millions, which after all wasn't the original intent of Nazi ideology, the war made them chose that option. They were already Nazis before those millions died.
Also North Korea being a leftist dream is hilarious, come on man
My grandfather didn't survive the Second World War. He's buried in a military cemetery in Italy. As a result I have some very, very strong opinions about anyone who marches under a far right flag.
in addition, my wife is not white. I'm thankful that I live in a country where people's freedom of speech does not extend to being able to belittle or demean her for having the wrong density of melanin.
These right wing scum are not pacifists. Their very beliefs are an act of violence, not literal, but mental and spiritual violence against anyone who does not fit their narrow definition of what race, religion or sexuality they believe to be what their country should consist of.
Sad to hear, my grandparents all lost family in the war, but didn't get killed fighting, as the war was over in a week here. My great grandfather was press-ganged by the Germans and died in the Ruhr area from Allied bombing sadly.
I'm in the same boat, my partner would not survive another one of those episodes. She is also the 'wrong' type, not so fun when they are contemplating ethnically cleansing your partner.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2017/08/13 21:15:09
Subject: Re:Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I'm obviously a neutral observer on this, and as I've said many a time before, I love American history
but I can never understand why there are statues of a man who was, after all, a traitor to the USA, and responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans.
Yes, you should never forget one of the most important chapters of American history, but these flags and statues belong in a museum and the history books, or brought out for historical re-enactment.
By their logic, you should be building statues of British generals of the American revolution: Howe, Cornwallis, Gage, etc etc
In England, statues of traitors hold prominent positions as well. Oliver Cromwell in my grandfather's own home town, Harry "Hotspur", Owen Glendower, Richard Neville, the list goes on. The south was given much more leniency than traitors normally get because of the need to heal the wounds of the country and put it back together, ugly compromises were made. But the US is not unique in that. Europeans were usually far more savage in those days of the defeated party, The pilgrimage of grace comes to mind as well as the cornish uprising.
Also you should be aware, most of these monuments were put up in the 20th century, and actually represent racist backlash to the civil Rights movements if their era.
most of them within 35-50 years of the war, since it ended in 1865, that does make them in the 20th century (1900-2000) when the bulk of them were made/sculpted whatever, they had living veterans and their children around.by comparison, the traitor cromwell had his erected in 1899, he died in 1658, with obviously no living children or grandchildren in presence. I dont believe that most of them are racist backlash, the north was no less racist than the south who were about as racist as the other 99% of the globe. I would believe more recent racists hold those monuments for those reasons.
I would disagree with that. The one at issue was built in 1924 for example.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2017/08/13 21:16:03
Subject: Car Hits Crowd After White Nationalist Rally in Charlottesville Ends in Violence
d-usa wrote: In a thread about a vehicular attack against counter-protestors at a pro white nationalist protest, hardly any posts have been about the attack. But there are lots of posts about how the nazi flag waving guys aren't really nazis, how it's the lefts fault they got mowed down by a car, how "both sides are bad" after one side committed murder, and a weird focus on people saying "it's not okay to say we should punch people" in the aftermath of a murderous attack.
A lot was revealed about people during the course of this thread.
In a thread about the tragedy of somebody deliberately murdering and maiming people via crashing into a crowd with a car because of a difference in ideology I think it's very important to state that political differences don't justify a violent response. Recognizing that you shouldnt physically attack people who reject ideas you endorse includes acknowedging that running people over with a car because they oppose your Nazism is wrong. The appropriate response to somebody who promotes an idea or opinion you disagree with or who disagrees with an opinion or idea you support isn't a violent physical assault. You can debate them or ignore them but it's not acceptable to hurt them.
What if their claim is "My ideology says I should gleefully murder you, and the only thing stopping me is that I might get caught (and evidently not even that in some cases)?"
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