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The point wasnt to argue what is better, i said i gave some whys many dont like them (DL scourges), this isnt a DE forum lets keep it on Harlequins, if you want to debate DL scourges go to DE forum.

If you are asking, if they bring something to Harlequins, lets see what your list is for Harlequins then, b.c you might not even want scourges, if you want to take them for fun, then play them, no need to ask us

Will be building my Voidweavers soon, what do people think of the prismatic lances?

If youa re not playing with Skyweavers then HWC are an option, but in general now that they are assault weapons i think they are amazing, it gives quins options we dont have.

So here is a preliminary list I have for my Harlequins. A detachment of Soaring Spite for some good tank hunting with Haywire Skyweavers to help out with that and Dreaming Shadow for some good Stratagems and Relics. It is a pretty CP hungry list due to using Heroes Path, Great Harlequin, and 1cp for an additional relic right off the bat but even after it I'd still have 8 CP. I could leave Great Harlequin out for more flexibility with 2 more CP but I also have some CP farm with Player of Twilight on my Shadowseer Warlord.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Harlequins) [49 PL, 1042pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Masque Form: The Soaring Spite: Serpent's Blood

+ HQ +

Shadowseer [7 PL, 125pts]: Shuriken Pistol

Troupe Master [4 PL, 86pts]: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress

+ Troops +

Troupe [5 PL, 110pts]
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade

Troupe [5 PL, 110pts]
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade

Troupe [5 PL, 110pts]
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Blade

+ Fast Attack +

Skyweavers [4 PL, 102pts]
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

Skyweavers [4 PL, 102pts]
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive
. Skyweaver: Haywire Cannon, Zephyrglaive

+ Dedicated Transport +

Starweaver [5 PL, 99pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon

Starweaver [5 PL, 99pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon

Starweaver [5 PL, 99pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Harlequins) [49 PL, 942pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Masque Form: The Dreaming Shadow: Sombre Sentinels

+ HQ +

Shadowseer [7 PL, 125pts]: Player of the Twilight, Shuriken Pistol, Warlord

Troupe Master [4 PL, 77pts]: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol

+ Troops +

Troupe [5 PL, 100pts]
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol

Troupe [5 PL, 100pts]
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol

Troupe [5 PL, 100pts]
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol

+ Elites +

Death Jester [3 PL, 45pts]: Curtainfall

Solitaire [5 PL, 98pts]: Cegorach's Rose, Harlequin's Caress, Harlequin's Kiss

+ Dedicated Transport +

Starweaver [5 PL, 99pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon

Starweaver [5 PL, 99pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon

Starweaver [5 PL, 99pts]: 2x Shuriken Cannon

++ Total: [98 PL, 1984pts] ++

Looks good but I think Dreaming Shadow need some decent shooting in case they go down. Their Masque Form lends itself better to shooting when they die rather than a single CC attack.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
If youa re not playing with Skyweavers then HWC are an option, but in general now that they are assault weapons i think they are amazing, it gives quins options we dont have.

Yeah, I’ve got a few Skyweavers and have them magnetised between Shuriken and haywire. I’ve already got a couple of Starweavers built too, and don’t need anymore, I have a couple unbuilt and figured I’d do them as VWs. My main issue with the HWC is they can’t wound high toughness non vehicles.

Hey fellow warrior clowns, I’ve been reading my codex and the thread and getting more pumped up to try out some lists. I’ve always wanted to try a freakshow list, and the new codex gives some solid options in that regard. I originally wanted to put this together as a Craftworld/Quin/DE super alliance, but I found it hard to fit everything I wanted into 2000 points. I ended up dropping the Dark Eldar piece of the list and limiting it to CWE and Harlequins. List is spoilered below:



I gave some thought to going Silent Shroud, but I really want to try out Curtainfall. I also feel like most of the units in the detachment benefit quite well from the Dreaming Shadow trait.

With regard to the Ld attacks, I can really stack up the debuffs, but the main goal is going to be to put them on an enemy character and then hit him with Mind War on the same turn the Hawk Exarch deep strikes next to the farseer. If I can use this to assassinate a character who was buffing nearby infantry units’ morale, all the better. If not, most of these units are TAC choices that should do fine regardless. Guardians, shadow spectres and hawks are solid anti-horde, Quins and HWC skyweavers are good anti-tank, and of course the Hemlock with Jinx and the Farseer with Doom are good at buffing up all my other units. The spiritseer got the bill of the obligatory 2nd HQ for the battalion. I don’t have a lot of plans for him at the moment. I suspect he will ride in the Serpent with the Dire Avengers most of the time, only hopping out if there’s a juicy Smite target.

The main issue I see off the top off the top of my head is that I will probably be CP poor most of the time, as the list only brings 9 CP and 2 are already committed to put the guardians in the webway and buy an extra relic, plus I will probably use Heroes Path every game where my opponent gets first turn. Hopefully I can earn a few back off of Player of Twilight to make up for it, as I imagine I will be burning through CP pretty quickly here - so many good stratagems!

And if you’re wondering about the Shadow Spectres, I finished painting them a couple weeks ago and haven’t gotten a game in with them yet, so they aren’t going anywhere right now.

Hey guys, posted this on other sites, i think this is something you need to look into, IMO we have the GREATEST anti-melee unit in the game currently, until GW faqs it (and it should).

The Suit of Knives, here is the rule NOT word for word for copywrite "Any hit of 1, roll a D6 on a 2+ it does a MW in melee" But modifiers does effect this, just like how modifiers effects Plasma, so will this relic.

That means, if you use a power or two, to make lets say a 20man Ork unit -1 or -2 to hit, and you use the stratagem when targeted with an attack an additional -1 to hit for at least -2, but easily -3 (there is another stratagem if you take any wound, cough cough overwatch, you gain another -1 to hit for the rest of that turn) so it is possible to have a -4, but rarely, lets just go with -2 or -3 for now. Remember its Hits of 1 not unmodified or result of 1, etc.. it says hits. So against 20 Orks? thats 60 attacks, hitting on 3+, but now only hitting on 5+ and 1, 2, 3's are doing a MW roll attempt, that is 20 equal 1's hit, 20 5-6 hits and 20 misses, if they have 0 re-rolls, that is 18 dead Orks from their own attacks, that 18/20 Orks!

The -2 to hit chart with modifiers against 3+ to hit means any dice rolls of 1, 2 or 3 equal a result of 1, but -3 means it adds 4's to that. Units with large number of attacks are especially at risk, so basically all dedicated Melee units.

The goal would be to cast both powers on the Troupe Master and TM's charging unit so that unit has a -1 and you have a -1, then when you make your charge (either take OW and hope for 1 wound, or out of SoL) and when they target you for an attack gain an additional -1 to hit. For hopefully -3.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Hey guys, posted this on other sites, i think this is something you need to look into, IMO we have the GREATEST anti-melee unit in the game currently, until GW faqs it (and it should).

The Suit of Knives, here is the rule NOT word for word for copywrite "Any hit of 1, roll a D6 on a 2+ it does a MW in melee" But modifiers does effect this, just like how modifiers effects Plasma, so will this relic.

That means, if you use a power or two, to make lets say a 20man Ork unit -1 or -2 to hit, and you use the stratagem when targeted with an attack an additional -1 to hit for at least -2, but easily -3 (there is another stratagem if you take any wound, cough cough overwatch, you gain another -1 to hit for the rest of that turn) so it is possible to have a -4, but rarely, lets just go with -2 or -3 for now. Remember its Hits of 1 not unmodified or result of 1, etc.. it says hits. So against 20 Orks? thats 60 attacks, hitting on 3+, but now only hitting on 5+ and 1, 2, 3's are doing a MW roll attempt, that is 20 equal 1's hit, 20 5-6 hits and 20 misses, if they have 0 re-rolls, that is 18 dead Orks from their own attacks, that 18/20 Orks!

The -2 to hit chart with modifiers against 3+ to hit means any dice rolls of 1, 2 or 3 equal a result of 1, but -3 means it adds 4's to that. Units with large number of attacks are especially at risk, so basically all dedicated Melee units.

The goal would be to cast both powers on the Troupe Master and TM's charging unit so that unit has a -1 and you have a -1, then when you make your charge (either take OW and hope for 1 wound, or out of SoL) and when they target you for an attack gain an additional -1 to hit. For hopefully -3.

So you are bending both your shadowseer powers and 2 CP for lightning fast reflexes. But your opponent will never get 20 orks close enough to attack, what's more your opponent doesn't even need to pile in so your troop master will get into contact with maybe 3 or 4 of them. It's a nice idea but just doesn't play out like it should.

You can get to -5 with a cwe enhance/drain warlock and swooping hawks with the index sunrifle on the exarch. It won't be very effective versus hordes, but it will work on elite infantry, dreadnoughts/monsters and tanks. Make sure to put on your best trollface as you ask your opponent how many attacks his baneblade has.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
You can get to -5 with a cwe enhance/drain warlock and swooping hawks with the index sunrifle on the exarch. It won't be very effective versus hordes, but it will work on elite infantry, dreadnoughts/monsters and tanks. Make sure to put on your best trollface as you ask your opponent how many attacks his baneblade has.

You're going to do like 6-7 damage to that baneblade. Sounds great until you realize you had to cast 2-3 psychic powers that were harder to cast than smite to do that.

As already discussed earlier in this thread, the mantle of hidden knife relic can be very powerful, but also nearly useless.

But therein lies the power of our relics. We have a great many choices. Pick one that always "works" as the free one. I think I like the storied sword for my warlord with soaring spite warlord trait.
Then depending on who you face buy 1-2 more for CPs before the game.
Lots of melee - knifes
Lots of flamers or T'au - starmist raiment
Lots of multiwound infantry - cegorachs rose
Backfiels artillery, monsters or characters - faolchus talon (soaring spite)

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Hey guys, posted this on other sites, i think this is something you need to look into, IMO we have the GREATEST anti-melee unit in the game currently, until GW faqs it (and it should).

The Suit of Knives, here is the rule NOT word for word for copywrite "Any hit of 1, roll a D6 on a 2+ it does a MW in melee" But modifiers does effect this, just like how modifiers effects Plasma, so will this relic.

That means, if you use a power or two, to make lets say a 20man Ork unit -1 or -2 to hit, and you use the stratagem when targeted with an attack an additional -1 to hit for at least -2, but easily -3 (there is another stratagem if you take any wound, cough cough overwatch, you gain another -1 to hit for the rest of that turn) so it is possible to have a -4, but rarely, lets just go with -2 or -3 for now. Remember its Hits of 1 not unmodified or result of 1, etc.. it says hits. So against 20 Orks? thats 60 attacks, hitting on 3+, but now only hitting on 5+ and 1, 2, 3's are doing a MW roll attempt, that is 20 equal 1's hit, 20 5-6 hits and 20 misses, if they have 0 re-rolls, that is 18 dead Orks from their own attacks, that 18/20 Orks!

The -2 to hit chart with modifiers against 3+ to hit means any dice rolls of 1, 2 or 3 equal a result of 1, but -3 means it adds 4's to that. Units with large number of attacks are especially at risk, so basically all dedicated Melee units.

The goal would be to cast both powers on the Troupe Master and TM's charging unit so that unit has a -1 and you have a -1, then when you make your charge (either take OW and hope for 1 wound, or out of SoL) and when they target you for an attack gain an additional -1 to hit. For hopefully -3.

So you are bending both your shadowseer powers and 2 CP for lightning fast reflexes. But your opponent will never get 20 orks close enough to attack, what's more your opponent doesn't even need to pile in so your troop master will get into contact with maybe 3 or 4 of them. It's a nice idea but just doesn't play out like it should.

Any army that is turn 1-2 melee oriented, plus YOU charge them, they will have to attack in melee, they must attack in melee if able to. A unit of Dawneagles, BA Death Company, DE Wyches, etc...

Hey, so I made an Infografik analyzing the Webwaygate
real disappointment :(

Anyone got opinions on how to use it at all?

the_scotsman wrote:

shortymcnostrill wrote:
You can get to -5 with a cwe enhance/drain warlock and swooping hawks with the index sunrifle on the exarch. It won't be very effective versus hordes, but it will work on elite infantry, dreadnoughts/monsters and tanks. Make sure to put on your best trollface as you ask your opponent how many attacks his baneblade has.

You're going to do like 6-7 damage to that baneblade. Sounds great until you realize you had to cast 2-3 psychic powers that were harder to cast than smite to do that.

Actually you'd do 9 damage to a baneblade in this (admittedly unlikely) scenario. It has 9 attacks, with a -5 modifier even a 6 becomes a 1. You could leave out the psychic powers for a -3 modifier, resulting in 6 damage on average and leaving you with 2 smites to cast. Disclaimer: I just want to accurately portray the expected outcome here, I do not think this will win you a tournament or w/e.

I absolutely must try this in a game now.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Hey guys, posted this on other sites, i think this is something you need to look into, IMO we have the GREATEST anti-melee unit in the game currently, until GW faqs it (and it should).

The Suit of Knives, here is the rule NOT word for word for copywrite "Any hit of 1, roll a D6 on a 2+ it does a MW in melee" But modifiers does effect this, just like how modifiers effects Plasma, so will this relic.

That means, if you use a power or two, to make lets say a 20man Ork unit -1 or -2 to hit, and you use the stratagem when targeted with an attack an additional -1 to hit for at least -2, but easily -3 (there is another stratagem if you take any wound, cough cough overwatch, you gain another -1 to hit for the rest of that turn) so it is possible to have a -4, but rarely, lets just go with -2 or -3 for now. Remember its Hits of 1 not unmodified or result of 1, etc.. it says hits. So against 20 Orks? thats 60 attacks, hitting on 3+, but now only hitting on 5+ and 1, 2, 3's are doing a MW roll attempt, that is 20 equal 1's hit, 20 5-6 hits and 20 misses, if they have 0 re-rolls, that is 18 dead Orks from their own attacks, that 18/20 Orks!

The -2 to hit chart with modifiers against 3+ to hit means any dice rolls of 1, 2 or 3 equal a result of 1, but -3 means it adds 4's to that. Units with large number of attacks are especially at risk, so basically all dedicated Melee units.

The goal would be to cast both powers on the Troupe Master and TM's charging unit so that unit has a -1 and you have a -1, then when you make your charge (either take OW and hope for 1 wound, or out of SoL) and when they target you for an attack gain an additional -1 to hit. For hopefully -3.

So you are bending both your shadowseer powers and 2 CP for lightning fast reflexes. But your opponent will never get 20 orks close enough to attack, what's more your opponent doesn't even need to pile in so your troop master will get into contact with maybe 3 or 4 of them. It's a nice idea but just doesn't play out like it should.

Any army that is turn 1-2 melee oriented, plus YOU charge them, they will have to attack in melee, they must attack in melee if able to. A unit of Dawneagles, BA Death Company, DE Wyches, etc...

Your missing the part where you attack, kill models, they remove them from B2B and then have a choice on whether or not to pile into you. That means they can avoid attacking you back. Best your hoping for is using your flip belt to hop into the center of a 30 man ork mob because the player isn't fussing about spacing because it's 8th edition, then you spring this crap on them and have a gotcha moment worth a few laughs and then he makes sure never to leave said opening for you again lol. Whats worse is now he will worry about spacing and your games will take an additional 2 hours to play

It's definitely cool though, and I think it still is a fun combo, but hardly the anti horde your implying. I think it actually works better on elite targets with lots of attacks. Like hilariously, this would scare the crap out of another solitaire It also is funny against dakka Imperial Knights since all they can do is stomp.

I think you are completely forgetting that YOU get to consolidate after they remove models and that you only have 5 attacks, you are only killing 3 on average then moving 3" finally only needs to be within 1".

The FAQ is out.
Nothing important really. No Errata whatsoever.
So the neuro-disruptor is still garbage, and the webway gate basically unplayable.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I think you are completely forgetting that YOU get to consolidate after they remove models and that you only have 5 attacks, you are only killing 3 on average then moving 3" finally only needs to be within 1".

Ah right, I did forget it was possible for a single 25mm model to consolidate in and base an entire horde All for the cost of ONLY a relic, two psychic powers and a 2 CP stratagem that is more valuable elsewhere...

No, I think I was right before and still am, it's a very fun combo that is hit or miss and works best on lower number elite models.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I think you are completely forgetting that YOU get to consolidate after they remove models and that you only have 5 attacks, you are only killing 3 on average then moving 3" finally only needs to be within 1".

Ah right, I did forget it was possible for a single 25mm model to consolidate in and base an entire horde All for the cost of ONLY a relic, two psychic powers and a 2 CP stratagem that is more valuable elsewhere...

No, I think I was right before and still am, it's a very fun combo that is hit or miss and works best on lower number elite models.

It works best on large number of attack low wound models, never said it doesnt work on elites, units like DC etc... But i'm saying it will also work on melee hordes with 2+ attacks, i'm saying it will still work vs melee hordes.

I'm starting to think Soaring Spite is simply not worthwhile compared to our other Masque choices.

Unless you spend a tonne of CP to turbo boost the range of some transports you simply don't get close enough for using fusion pistols & grenades on turn 1 so the only real advantage is an accuracy boost on Skyweavers trying to blitz something.

I'm now coming around to using Silent Shroud. The extra morale damage is nice, but the two main attractions for me are the ability to get a 9" Great Harlequin aura and having further ways to ignore overwatch.

How are you all finding the Masque choices so far?

I mostly play Midnight sorrow, as it's how my Harlies are painted.
I really enjoy my supercharged Solitaire. With the warlord trait, coegorach's rose, and the stratagem to attack again when dying, the little guy is finally doing some lifting.
The masque trait is a bit difficult to use, and only useful if the enemy is positioned a certain way.

fresus wrote:
The FAQ is out.
Nothing important really. No Errata whatsoever.
So the neuro-disruptor is still garbage, and the webway gate basically unplayable.

That is beyond disappointing. I've been waiting for the FAQ since the rules dropped. and didn't notice they were out until now.
I want to buy the model, but my enthusiasm for it is low right now.

-

Lithanial wrote:
I'm starting to think Soaring Spite is simply not worthwhile compared to our other Masque choices.

Unless you spend a tonne of CP to turbo boost the range of some transports you simply don't get close enough for using fusion pistols & grenades on turn 1 so the only real advantage is an accuracy boost on Skyweavers trying to blitz something.

I'm now coming around to using Silent Shroud. The extra morale damage is nice, but the two main attractions for me are the ability to get a 9" Great Harlequin aura and having further ways to ignore overwatch.

How are you all finding the Masque choices so far?

Had a 2000 point game today. With soaring spite I advanced my starweavers and could get close enough to kill
1 renegade knight and 2 helbrutes with 3 starweavers and 6 skyweavers. Had doom, jinx and did also 7 mortal wounds with psychics. Brutal turn 1 shooting, but ist was crucial to be able to advance my starweavers to het into 3" range.
My warlord Troupe Master got out after moving and killed another unit in cc before jumping back into the transport.


I feel like the soaring spite stratagem is soo good because it opens crazy shenaningans and makes you unoredictable.

Has anyone been running veiled path? I'd be interested to know how the masque trait plays out in game, seems really good at first glance but how often does it actually make a difference?

Also quick question, if I roll a 1 and I'm fighting stuff that gets to re-roll 1s, do they still get to re-roll it? I'm guessing yes but...

@Weidekuh: That's some next level 99th percentile dice rolling you had there. Either your play board is too small or your opponent made some severe deployment mistakes to enable you to get within 3" turn 1 - and that's where my dislike for Soaring Spite melta rush is coming from, it requires your opponent to mess up so the more experience your opponents get, the worse your force performance becomes.

@Trashpanda: Veiled paths trait is rather poor unfortunately with it being limited to the fight phase. Most casualties you take will be in shooting or overwatch so the actual increase to your survivability is miniscule. The best part of Veiled Path is how crazy you can make a Shadowseer with the Mirrorstave. I'm sure there is also a good plan with their Warlord trait that can be done for a solid webway drop but have yet to think of anything that I'm 100% comfortable with.

That's a shame, was hoping it would add a bit more survivability as I plan on getting stuck in as soon as possible.

I'll probably still try them out to see how it goes, the extra DS is nice, and the warlord trait, but not sure it's worth giving up PotT CP farming for.

I've been thinking through this Silent Shroud plan over the past few days now and have come to an interesting detachment structure that would be good to get some other opinions on.

Vanguard Detachment - Silent Shroud
1x Troupe Master - No fusion pistol, Scintillant Veil
1x Solitaire
3x Death Jester
2x 5 Troupe - 2x Fusion Pistol, 2x Kiss, 3x Embrace
2x Starweaver

[Under 750 points]
---

To pull out some of the key points:

1, Scintillant Veil is key here to push the Troupe Masters out to 9". This makes it much easier to position the Troupes and Solitaire to be within them when your opponent spreads out and ensures your Ld impairment stretches out quite a way. Between the large aura and the Starweavers also projecting Ld impairment you will get a substantial coverage that will constantly bleed off casualties and need to be dealt with.
2, Solitaire over taking a Shadowseer as its kill rate within Troupe Master aura is far superior and more reliable.
3, No fusion pistol on the Troupe Master as he will either be advancing and not able to shoot, or otherwise using Haywire & Plasma grenades
4, Shrieker ammo from the Death Jesters has great synergy with the Ld impairment of Silent Shroud. Working as a trio to land a Shrieker kill per turn, they should cripple or destroy a unit per turn. You need 3 Death Jesters to statistically land a shrieker kill per turn against MEQ so i need to go up to 4 Elite choices, locking this formation into a Vanguard detachment
---

On top of this I'm going to need a battalion from somewhere to top up the command points and then see how many points are left for extra goodies. Still trying to settle on what the best faction to pull that Battalion from will be though.

Depends on if you want to go pure Harlequins or not as far as which Battalion to go with. A cheap way with good synergy would be a Dark Creed Coven with wracks, put Phantasms on their Raiders, etc.

Personally I'd either go with a Soaring spite Masque if I wanted pure Harlequin, or a Black Heart Kabal with scattered Phantasms if I wanted to stay cheap but still contribute to Ld shenanigans and anti tank. Then add in a pile of Skyweavers for Haywire to aid in vehicle hunting.

It seemed like folks were going all in on caresses initially, but I actually like the embrace much more I am finding. Kills the same rate of GEQ and actually more MEQ from t4-7. The only point where the embrace seems better is against things that are T8-9. What are you guys finding? I still think the worst option is the kiss unfortunately, I think I'd rather save points and take the sword over the kiss, but I am liking the embrace much more lately.