The Top Lists of NOVA's GT

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**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
"All the data" is an impossible demand. THere will always be data we won't have. We can have more or we can have less, but we can never have it all.

Now, asking for the top 25 is not, in and of itself, unreasonable. But when we have the top 11, and that data was limited to the top 11 independent of what those top 11 were, that's good data. To say we know nothing is silly.

Further, the likelyhood of half the top 25 lists being monofaction when 0/11 are - or whatever variant you're looking for - is incredibly low. When looking for what is more powerful, top 11 are going to be substantially representative of the top 25. While it's just under half of the top 25, it skews to the stronger lists.

I'd rather the top 25, too, but the top 11 tells us volumes. Maybe not the volumes you're looking for, but nowhere near nothing.

It confirms what we already know. Really. I am surprised not to see a heavy knight list in the top 10 though. Really surprised. Also surprised by the lack of shining spears - only 1 unit. These are things you expect at this point.

Also it's not unreasonable - this even was live streamed. It's unreasonable the the TO haven't made this information available on their home page or something. The main reason I want to see it is just to see where the Mono armies place.

**Bharring**

There were only 3 Xenos lists in the top 11 - so not a crystal-clear indication of where Shining Spears sit in the terms of Xeno units, although suggestive that it's way up there. But the results, as a whole, show how far behind the IOM all xenos are. Eldar just less so than others.

I'm sure NOVA would have accepted volenteers to post said information. Perhaps offer to, next year? It may not be a ton of work to compile, clean up, and post. But it's not nothing either. And those who are invested in running NOVA would have obviously been very busy.

**Breng77**

Xenomancers wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:

Soup is not the reason that *certain units* are too cheap or, too costly. Soup is not the reason that *certain units* are over-performing and always seen on the top tables. What soup does, is make any discrepancies far, far more obvious. It highlights the units that are performing too well without the context of a faction. Infantry, for example, are not only good in an IG list, they are strong in an IK and SM list. We can literally see this from the OP, they are the go-to, well, 'infantry' unit for Imperium (fitting perhaps?) armies. In the same token Raven Castellans are the 'go-to' Super-heavy for Imperium armies. Slamguinius is the go-to SM character for these armies. There is obviously an element of context and knowledge to make these correlations but I think this is an indication of how *certain units* need a fix, one way or another.

Point of fact soup does drastically effect the value and effectiveness of unit. While those units might still be "best of faction" style choices, their dominance in game is largely influenced by the ability to soup. Castellans are great, remove them from soup and I don't think they make the cut because knights mono-faction don't win because they cannot screen out units designed to kill those knights, and don't have near infinite CP to buff them. They are still good in a knight army, but the fix to them is reliant on them being souped, with soup they need to have their points adjusted, in mono-codex other units might come down in cost to compete. Same with IG infantry, they are good in an IG list, but far less so than in soup because they tend to lack assault threats to back them up.

That is not to say that they don't need fixing, but the ammount, and type of fixing is entirely directed by soup. Essentially any balance discussion is a matter of context, and soup provides the most competitive context. Using an old example Invisibility the 7th ed psychic power was not inherently broken, if it could only be taken and cast on say Inquisition units, no one would have balked at it, it's application to more powerful units caused the issue. As such I think that if one is going to "nerf soup" it would be wise to wait to correct other units based on a post soup meta.

Nah - not really. Every unit has the ability to soup or every unit doesn't have the ability to soup. A castellan without CP battery doesn't need to worry about a BA captain dropping 5 command points to 1 shot him if he doesn't have a CP battery ether so it is all relative.

Castellans are going to be OP in ANY rule set because they have too much at their disposal for too little. Cawls wrath obliterates things - as does the volcano lance - and it's got a helvrine on it's shoulders - plus 4 melta guns - plus invo denying missle and a 4++ to shooting as a warlord with 28 wounds t8. It's OP because it doesn't cost enough. Banning soup WILL NOT fix that. Fixing the units point costs and removing insane combos will fix soup though.

Except a Castellan without soup lacks screens so that captain can easily charge it, or guns can deepstrike and blow it away etc. Blowing 5CP to 1 shot it is not big deal for a SM army, whereas knights are unlikely to have more than say 8 CP.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Point of fact soup does drastically effect the value and effectiveness of unit. While those units might still be "best of faction" style choices, their dominance in game is largely influenced by the ability to soup. Castellans are great, remove them from soup and I don't think they make the cut because knights mono-faction don't win because they cannot screen out units designed to kill those knights, and don't have near infinite CP to buff them. They are still good in a knight army, but the fix to them is reliant on them being souped, with soup they need to have their points adjusted, in mono-codex other units might come down in cost to compete. Same with IG infantry, they are good in an IG list, but far less so than in soup because they tend to lack assault threats to back them up.

The thing is, to even get into a soup list the unit in question has to be the best of the best. You're forgetting the key thing about soup - that players cherry pick the best units to suit their needs from all available. This is soup 101. We're talking cream of tomato here.

I don't disagree that units can go from 'amazing' to 'amazing+' in a soup list. But there's no doubt they're amazing to start, it's how they get into a soup list to begin with. Infantry, for example, are great in both IG lists and soup lists. They may perform better in a soup list because they have great synergies with other units, abilities, stratagems, psychic powers and such but they are still incredibly potent in a mono-list. Want proof? IG had the second best mono list at the last GT. IG has strong mono list showings at most major events. Also Bullgryn are a pretty ridiculous assault threat. Catachan Infantry aren't bad either, for their cost.

The issue is that the role something fills might be more important in a soup force than a mono-faction force, sure no one is taking bad units, but how good something is depends on how it fits into its larger army.

**Bharring**

Without Soup, SM are middleground for CP generation. Better than more elite armies (Harlies, GK, CWE, etc), but worse than most armies (IG, Tau, DE, Orkz, etc). 5CP would be a big chunk of their CP for the game. But then, you're 1-rounding a Knight for those 5CP.

**HoundsofDemos**

One of the biggest problem is that that any balancing of unit ability or point costs is thrown to the way side by armies having access to CP batteries not native to their own books. I love seeing allies as I think they make the game more interesting and provide for more dramatic and fluffy game. What I don't like is that the game is progressing more and more towards having a handle full of models doing all the heavy lifting while feeding off a bunch of mooks sitting around and given armies far more CP then they were probably designed for.

**Xenomancers**

There are a lot of ways to screen a castellan with just knights. gallants are cheap and will actually beat a smash captain with a little luck. Best part is they function just fine at low wounds.

If Tyranis (no one is running tyranis - it's kind of mind boggling) You have 6+ FNP.

There is relic 2+ armor - there is sanctuary for a 5++ save in CC. These things mean the knight fights back. In which case it's going to get raped from death grip and if there are 2 smashes both are going to die before before get to fight.

Then if you die! You can just resurrect (AT THE END OF THE PHASE).

**Crimson**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
One of the biggest problem is that that any balancing of unit ability or point costs is thrown to the way side by armies having access to CP batteries not native to their own books. I love seeing allies as I think they make the game more interesting and provide for more dramatic and fluffy game. What I don't like is that the game is progressing more and more towards having a handle full of models doing all the heavy lifting while feeding off a bunch of mooks sitting around and given armies far more CP then they were probably designed for.

Well, 'designed for'... I think the GW designers know how the ally rules work. Custodes in particular were designed to work in conjunction with other imperial units and have rules that are specifically designed to benefit such allies. And of course Knights were originally in the same codex with Ad Mech, so it would be pretty strange suggestion that the designers didn't mean them to work together. It is just that Guard's 'Endless CP' trick completely breaks the system, and any Imperium army can buy it for less than 200 points. I think getting rid of CP regen would go a long way to fix the most absurd ally abuse.

**Karol**

Are you sure about GW knowing how their rules work in game? Because when you hear them talk about playing or read articles on their official page it feels as if they had zero idea about the game.

**Darsath**

I would look at adding additional benefits for all Detachments being for the same faction rather than detracting for allying. It would be easier to implement, and some armies were designed specifically for allying in.

**Xenomancers**

Karol wrote:
Are you sure about GW knowing how their rules work in game? Because when you hear them talk about playing or read articles on their official page it feels as if they had zero idea about the game.

Yeah. I second this. They really don't know the consequence of the rules they write. In a lot of cases. The don't consider the stacking of strats and spells and fighting twice and stuff.

**Tower**

Best Coast App subscribers have access to all of the lists. There were four mono-faction armies in top 25. Tau at 14 and 24th, Ultramarines at 15th, and Nurgle at 16th. Of course Tau has no choice but to be soupless.

**Bharring**

Thanks, Tower.

Good to see two more Xenos and one more Chaos stand up to the IoM!

**Asmodios**

Tower wrote:
Best Coast App subscribers have access to all of the lists. There were four mono-faction armies in top 25. Tau at 14 and 24th, Ultramarines at 15th, and Nurgle at 16th. Of course Tau has no choice but to be soupless.

Wow amazing there weren't any mono guard considering they are obviously so busted they don't even need soup /sarcasm

**An Actual Englishman**

Asmodios wrote:
Tower wrote:
Best Coast App subscribers have access to all of the lists. There were four mono-faction armies in top 25. Tau at 14 and 24th, Ultramarines at 15th, and Nurgle at 16th. Of course Tau has no choice but to be soupless.

Wow amazing there weren't any mono guard considering they are obviously so busted they don't even need soup /sarcasm

Has anything changed since the BAO where they were the second best mono list? No? Guess that's still relevant then.

**Xenomancers**

Tower wrote:
Best Coast App subscribers have access to all of the lists. There were four mono-faction armies in top 25. Tau at 14 and 24th, Ultramarines at 15th, and Nurgle at 16th. Of course Tau has no choice but to be soupless.

Is this a paid service? If so what does it cost? What was the Ultramarine list if you don't mind? Never mind I looked it up. 5 bucks a month - only thing that bothers me...I have to support FLG after they have screwed up my last 3 orders......

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Thanks, Tower.

Good to see two more Xenos and one more Chaos stand up to the IoM!

No love for the Ultras I see.

**Not Online!!!**

Xenomancers wrote:
Karol wrote:
Are you sure about GW knowing how their rules work in game? Because when you hear them talk about playing or read articles on their official page it feels as if they had zero idea about the game.

Yeah. I second this. They really don't know the consequence of the rules they write. In a lot of cases. The don't consider the stacking of strats and spells and fighting twice and stuff.

They know very well what their rules do. Infact Soup is the best for them, buisness wise since they can sell you more stuff, mainly books, but also models which then might get turned into a proper further army by their player.

But considering that we don't see a mono guard list in these and mostly guard abused as CP farms for other armies wich bring the punch, kinda shows that guard by themselves are good but not borderline broken as many belive. Then again the whole CP and Trait system at this point makes balnce in itself broken to do. Take an Alpha legionaire vs an Word bearer trait wise and then tell me that the word bearer should be priced equally.
So long they go about factions that way with traits beeing far superior and subfaction specific stratagems beeing better then other subfaction stratagems, by a large margin, so long the balance itself is essentially non achievable, even moresoe then normally.

**Bharring**

UM are the proud parents of my homebrew chapter - Wings of Dawn. A few of the founding members had met Bobby G pre-stasis before it was founding, even. I have a great deal of love for UltraMarines. How dare you impugn my fililal duty to my parent Chapter!

More seriously, the Ultras list is noteworthy, too - all the IoM lists in the top 10 were soup.

**A.T.**

Tower wrote:
Best Coast App subscribers have access to all of the lists. There were four mono-faction armies in top 25. Tau at 14 and 24th, Ultramarines at 15th, and Nurgle at 16th. Of course Tau has no choice but to be soupless.

I'd also consider the DE/harlies list pretty close, mono but for part of their faction now being sold separately.
It'd be interesting to know if psychic protection was the driving force in the top-placing DE soups.

**Bharring**

All 3 DE lists in the top 11 would be considered 'DE, with allies'. One with a few Harlies, one with a few Craftworlders, and one with a Ynnari Spears unit and some Craftworlders.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
UM are the proud parents of my homebrew chapter - Wings of Dawn. A few of the founding members had met Bobby G pre-stasis before it was founding, even. I have a great deal of love for UltraMarines. How dare you impugn my fililal duty to my parent Chapter!

More seriously, the Ultras list is noteworthy, too - all the IoM lists in the top 10 were soup.

All this time...we are actually brother. Much respect Bharring. Apparently it was Reeace playing the ultras.

**Bharring**

And both of the CWE detatchemnts had Farseers (the Ynnari one took Eldrad - which can't be Alaitoc, so that's probably why the other one did not).

**Eldarain**

The CP elements of soup need to be reined in first. Having access to unit types that shore up your weaknesses should be plenty of benefit. Consider a CP buff to mono faction armies if they can't stand on their own.

**Xenomancers**

A.T. wrote:
Tower wrote:
Best Coast App subscribers have access to all of the lists. There were four mono-faction armies in top 25. Tau at 14 and 24th, Ultramarines at 15th, and Nurgle at 16th. Of course Tau has no choice but to be soupless.
I'd also consider the DE/harlies list pretty close, mono but for part of their faction now being sold separately.
It'd be interesting to know if psychic protection was the driving force in the top-placing DE soups.

Well we all know Harlie bikes are amazing units. Native -1 and 4++ with on demand -2 and 3++. Good CC. plus Mortal spam on vehicals that doubles are good anti chaff. They have a 22" move and charge naturally (plus fly keyword) So can stay locked with a castellan in CC (castellan can move over fly keyword units). They are a great choice.

**Amishprn86**

Xenomancers wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Tower wrote:
Best Coast App subscribers have access to all of the lists. There were four mono-faction armies in top 25. Tau at 14 and 24th, Ultramarines at 15th, and Nurgle at 16th. Of course Tau has no choice but to be soupless.
I'd also consider the DE/harlies list pretty close, mono but for part of their faction now being sold separately.
It'd be interesting to know if psychic protection was the driving force in the top-placing DE soups.

Well we all know Harlie bikes are amazing units. Native -1 and 4++ with on demand -2 and 3++. Good CC. plus Mortal spam on vehicals that doubles are good anti chaff. They have a 22" move and charge naturally (plus fly keyword) So can stay locked with a castellan in CC (castellan can move over fly keyword units). They are a great choice.

They are Anti-Tank vs of Shinny Spears

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
And both of the CWE detatchemnts had Farseers (the Ynnari one took Eldrad - which can't be Alaitoc, so that's probably why the other one did not).

Yee
Eldrad has 3 casts so you can get guide fortune and doom. Its worth the 40 point upgrade as he also gets +1 to cast after his first (if it's not costing you aliotoc) So in ynnari it makes sense.

**Bharring**

That does raise a good point about intrabook soup:
-If you take a Sally battalian, a RG Heavy Support, etc etc, is that soup?
-Is a Kabal + Coven 'soup'?

It'd be odd for the above to not be considered soup, but a DE/CWE list with a single Harlie squad on foot soup. It wasn't long ago they were in the same book.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
That does raise a good point about intrabook soup:
-If you take a Sally battalian, a RG Heavy Support, etc etc, is that soup?
-Is a Kabal + Coven 'soup'?

It'd be odd for the above to not be considered soup, but a DE/CWE list with a single Harlie squad on foot soup. It wasn't long ago they were in the same book.

I don't consider it so. I consider soup mixing codexes not army traits.

**Bharring**

Which is what AT was getting at: that army was monobook until recently.

**Xenomancers**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Tower wrote:
Best Coast App subscribers have access to all of the lists. There were four mono-faction armies in top 25. Tau at 14 and 24th, Ultramarines at 15th, and Nurgle at 16th. Of course Tau has no choice but to be soupless.
I'd also consider the DE/harlies list pretty close, mono but for part of their faction now being sold separately.
It'd be interesting to know if psychic protection was the driving force in the top-placing DE soups.

Well we all know Harlie bikes are amazing units. Native -1 and 4++ with on demand -2 and 3++. Good CC. plus Mortal spam on vehicals that doubles are good anti chaff. They have a 22" move and charge naturally (plus fly keyword) So can stay locked with a castellan in CC (castellan can move over fly keyword units). They are a great choice.

They are Anti-Tank vs of Shinny Spears

Spears are pretty good anti tank too. I think the principle difference is harlie bikes have a 4++ in CC and are a little bit more manuverable (without spending CP). Spears do more overall damage BUT the mortals from 12 harlie bikes...holy freaking crap. That is a lot of mortals.

I am helping my friend build a harlie army. I told him to start building around 12 bikes....Look what just won the tournament lol.

**Asmodios**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
Tower wrote:
Best Coast App subscribers have access to all of the lists. There were four mono-faction armies in top 25. Tau at 14 and 24th, Ultramarines at 15th, and Nurgle at 16th. Of course Tau has no choice but to be soupless.

Wow amazing there weren't any mono guard considering they are obviously so busted they don't even need soup /sarcasm

Has anything changed since the BAO where they were the second best mono list? No? Guess that's still relevant then.

Yeah second best mono to tau.... so tau need to be super duper nerfed