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I think that Marines @13 points, could have a reroll all saves rule and still be balanced.

They don't want them balanced, they want them gone. That's my guess.

Martel732 wrote:
They don't want them balanced, they want them gone. That's my guess.

Judging from the remodelled chaos power armor and terminator armors, I doubt GW wants to outright invalidate them. It would be terrible decision to completely replace existing marine lines with the new primaris.

I still think they shouldve just released a new army with primaris. They would've made perfect range for Arbites given their 'space police' look.

 skchsan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They don't want them balanced, they want them gone. That's my guess.

Judging from the remodelled chaos power armor and terminator armors, I doubt GW wants to outright invalidate them. It would be terrible decision to completely replace existing marine lines with the new primaris.

I still think they shouldve just released a new army with primaris. They would've made perfect range for Arbites given their 'space police' look.

To be fair even thier replacement unit design isn't exactly stomping tournament lists either.
Heck look at the amount cultists got nerfed and people still take them over choas power armour.
They got made that much worse and they still outshine marines, I'm not sure GW have the bottle to nerf guardsmen etc enough that people would actually start taking marines over them

Ice_can wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They don't want them balanced, they want them gone. That's my guess.

Judging from the remodelled chaos power armor and terminator armors, I doubt GW wants to outright invalidate them. It would be terrible decision to completely replace existing marine lines with the new primaris.

I still think they shouldve just released a new army with primaris. They would've made perfect range for Arbites given their 'space police' look.

To be fair even thier replacement unit design isn't exactly stomping tournament lists either.
Heck look at the amount cultists got nerfed and people still take them over choas power armour.
They got made that much worse and they still outshine marines, I'm not sure GW have the bottle to nerf guardsmen etc enough that people would actually start taking marines over them

Actually they don't, atleast not compared to RC in what matters for a troop choice, namely generating CP.

Or we could make weapons that remove all your armour overpenetrate and hit other models. Like, if I shoot a Meltagun at a Guardsman his mate behind him probably won't be fine either.

Intercessors at 15ppm, or 7.5 points per wound. Pretty much puts them in line with every other infantry unit in the game. Even at 15ppm I don't think they'd be crushing tables

They wouldnt.

In my games it is weight of fire that always kills my marines, normal and Primaris.

I believe allowing marines to re-roll failed saves will help them a lot. AP0 and -1 will barely kill any without massive amounts of firepower, but dedicated anti-MEQ weapons will still be viable and will hurt.

This would make chaff much less effective to marines and increase their durability.

A "dedicated anti-MEQ" AP-2 weapon would still kill less than half the number of times it wounds.

Meanwhile, it now takes 18 S4 AP0 hits to kill a single Marine. That's 27 Marines firing boltguns (or similar).

It takes 54 Guardsmen shots to kill a single Marine. A Guardsman squad in RF range with FRFSRF gets 37 shots. So you need 8 Guardsmen squads (320 points) and 4 HQs to kill a single 65pt Marine squad.

And that's normal Marines out of cover. Killing a single such Marine in cover requires 6*6*3*2. 216 Guardsman shots to kill a marine. 1080 to kill a single 5-man. We're talking *30* Guardsman squads in RF range with FRFSRF to kill a single 65pt Marine squad in cover. That's most of a 2,000 point army.

That would make a 10-man Marine squad more durable than a Castellan.

Reroll saves is silly powerful.

Reroll all saves is obviously powerful. Reroll 1s would make Marines in cover really good. Out of cover good,and we wouldn't even need to add a wound

Have them ignore a given amount of AP. 1 for power armour, 2 for Terminator armour, maybe +1 to that for a storm shield. It wouldn't solve their issues with weight of fire AP0, but it'd at least solve the problem with AP1. It's something I've been wanting to try since 8th came out, though I first thought of it as a way to reduce Marines relying on cover. It wouldn't stack with cover, but because cover is a save bonus it'd be a bit wonky to word properly.

EDIT: I'd also make bolters AP-1.

Marines just need to be cheaper. There is no mathematical space left for meaningful improvements.

Personally I think they need a 2 plus save a 3 plus isnt what it once was. Terminators would then become 2 plus but ignore the first AP (and you could make them halve damage suffered if they were still weak). Anything else that has a 2 plus save would need to be balanced as well. The real problem is gw need to either accept marines are not going to be elite and therefore reduce their cost or up both their offence and defence.

Fightingfirst wrote:

Spoiler:

Personally I think they need a 2 plus save a 3 plus isnt what it once was. Terminators would then become 2 plus but ignore the first AP (and you could make them halve damage suffered if they were still weak). Anything else that has a 2 plus save would need to be balanced as well.

The real problem is gw need to either accept marines are not going to be elite and therefore reduce their cost or up both their offence and defence.

Yeeeeeap. Exactly. Fluff =! Basis for balance.