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Bharring wrote: Dropping all Plasma (IoM, T'au, and Eldar) to D1 would help Termies and Primaris a *ton*.
Tau doesn't have D2 plasma its S6 1D. If you mean Ion it's-1AP Dd3, nothing like as bad as -3/-4AP D2.
As almost all Plasma should be. It's not the only 1D plasma out there, but I meant almost all Plasma should be D1, not that all plasma was currenlty D2+.
Without getting too far off topic, I agree. Plasma should be aces at ignoring armor, but not at killing whats inside of it. To do both at such a cheap cost is not healthy for the game.
It's not offtopic. The whole game gaks on power armor and terminators. Everything is on topic.
Togusa wrote: Until I started playing with my terminators frequently, I hadn't realized just how many DMG 2 or DMG D3 weapons are out there in the wild.
As it currently stands, I'm not sure that giving them + X AS will do much to mitigate the issues they face.
I think I would rather see Toughness 5 or +1 additional wound so as to not get instant gibbed by over charged plasma.
Here is the real question on this issue:
Are models like terminators and primaris in the spot where they have too few wounds?
Or, is plasma too effective for its points cost?
Plasma used to be a flat S7 with Get's Hot.
Now, you have to overcharge to 8 to get that, but you gain the added benefit of 2 dmg.
Why not change plasma to be S6, over charge to S7 2DMG so as not to invalidate the T4 on power armor.
Finally someone else see's it.
Unfortunately with hellblasters GW seems to have doubled down and lent into plasma must be OP as feth to make up for how terrible primaris marines are.
Yeah, I deepstruck 6 termies on Sunday in a game, shot, killed 4 Hellblasters. With a banner with the 3+ relic, he shot back and killed 4 Terminataors (Because why not over charge?) and that was it. I lost all my great cc potential. Plasma is absolutely over powered at its current stats and price zone. There is no reason for meltas, flamers or gravity guns to exist. At all. Ever. Plasma kills tanks, it kills elite infantry, heavy armored infantry. Multi-wound models. Custodes. All of it.
Bharring wrote: Dropping all Plasma (IoM, T'au, and Eldar) to D1 would help Termies and Primaris a *ton*.
Tau doesn't have D2 plasma its S6 1D. If you mean Ion it's-1AP Dd3, nothing like as bad as -3/-4AP D2.
I still don't understand why hellblasters are rapidfire and ap -4. If anything they should at the very least be HEAVY 1.
It's really more like - terminators should have a better save.
Plasma is actually pretty under powered. It is the only weapon worth taking for space marines AND it just so happens to slay your models when you use it. Even with rerolls...you lose a good chunk of points every time you shoot. Realistically. You should have shot the hellblasters down with something before they got within 15" of anything. They have no mobility - no gimmick to get in range and cost just about as much as a terminator. Hellblasters aren't even good enough to make my all primaris list. Plasma inteceptors are superior IMO.
He hid his Plasma dudes quite well, there really wasn't any way for me to get at them without deepstriking in front of them for all the terrain in the way. Unfortunately Chaos Marines do not get snipers that ignore LoS, add +2 to their hit rolls when they shoot.
As for Hellblasters and Plasma Marines, you only die should you choose to over charge, and if you're running them next to a cappy and a lieutenant, they almost never die to their own folly. Then, with your relic banner, you still get to shoot, sans penalty at whatever kills you, overcharged!
It's a little ridiculous.
Relic banner is crazy I agree with that. It's auto include. Marines have no shoot twice stratagems though. So it makes up for it.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The amount of havok and benefit it gives for its very low cost of 60ish points is one of the better deals in 40k. If you are already grouping up to be in Gmans and a captermaster LT aura anyways...it is really easy to get another 6 " aura in there to shoot back on a 3+ (with the relic).
Example of its power. Against orks a 30 man boy dropped down in front of my intercessors. I auspex scanned and killed 8. Then the orks (who are supposed to be bad at shooting) killed 16 intercessors in the shooting phase. The banner shot back and killed 15 more orks. 7 Orks wasn't enough to kill the unit it charged and the result is that unit would have pulverized me only killed 2 intercessors. (The shooting damage was freaking inevitable). Without his gimick he was doomed. I one shot his lootas with rapid fire in my turn. My gimmick wins. Gimmick 40k baby.
If you really think about it. It is 2/3rd of another shooting phase if you focus on infantry bubble aura...and I do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 20:23:27
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Multidamage is now everywhere because they changed vehicles and characters, which now have more wounds.
Marines have the same survivability against plasma as in 7e, they get wounded more easily but still have an armor save, in an edition where lethality is immensely increased.
If you want movie marines, you already have them. They are called characters. Movie marines have plotarmor, as do characters who have additional wounds which indicates plot armor for me most of the time. (monsters, dreadnoughts, Cawl being exceptions.)
Unit comparison stops as soon as you compare them to guardsmen, which are the best troop choice.
Togusa wrote: Until I started playing with my terminators frequently, I hadn't realized just how many DMG 2 or DMG D3 weapons are out there in the wild.
As it currently stands, I'm not sure that giving them + X AS will do much to mitigate the issues they face.
I think I would rather see Toughness 5 or +1 additional wound so as to not get instant gibbed by over charged plasma.
Here is the real question on this issue:
Are models like terminators and primaris in the spot where they have too few wounds?
Or, is plasma too effective for its points cost?
Plasma used to be a flat S7 with Get's Hot.
Now, you have to overcharge to 8 to get that, but you gain the added benefit of 2 dmg.
Why not change plasma to be S6, over charge to S7 2DMG so as not to invalidate the T4 on power armor.
Finally someone else see's it.
Unfortunately with hellblasters GW seems to have doubled down and lent into plasma must be OP as feth to make up for how terrible primaris marines are.
Yeah, I deepstruck 6 termies on Sunday in a game, shot, killed 4 Hellblasters. With a banner with the 3+ relic, he shot back and killed 4 Terminataors (Because why not over charge?) and that was it. I lost all my great cc potential. Plasma is absolutely over powered at its current stats and price zone. There is no reason for meltas, flamers or gravity guns to exist. At all. Ever. Plasma kills tanks, it kills elite infantry, heavy armored infantry. Multi-wound models. Custodes. All of it.
Bharring wrote: Dropping all Plasma (IoM, T'au, and Eldar) to D1 would help Termies and Primaris a *ton*.
Tau doesn't have D2 plasma its S6 1D. If you mean Ion it's-1AP Dd3, nothing like as bad as -3/-4AP D2.
I still don't understand why hellblasters are rapidfire and ap -4. If anything they should at the very least be HEAVY 1.
It's really more like - terminators should have a better save.
Plasma is actually pretty under powered. It is the only weapon worth taking for space marines AND it just so happens to slay your models when you use it. Even with rerolls...you lose a good chunk of points every time you shoot. Realistically. You should have shot the hellblasters down with something before they got within 15" of anything. They have no mobility - no gimmick to get in range and cost just about as much as a terminator. Hellblasters aren't even good enough to make my all primaris list. Plasma inteceptors are superior IMO.
I disagree with most of what your saying, because if we compair 7th to 8th which doesn't quite read across perfectly.
But points changes,
Flamer +1
Melta +4
Grav -3
Plasma -4
Plasma guns got rediculous reductions in points comparatively.
Lets check those stats to see if their is any reasonable excuse for some of these changes
Flamer lost AP5, went from template to D6 at 8 inch a side great at best if being generous.
Melta went from AP1 to -4, from armour pen to increased damage.
Grav, ouch salvo 2/3 to rapid fire, AP2 to -3, lost concussion, and now randomly becomes a Damage d3 weapon against marines or better.
Plasma guns got +1 Strength, Ap2 to Ap-3, and Damage D2, additionally got a S7 Ap-3 D1 shooting mode aswell. How did this thing get more point's reduction when it clearly got a relative rules buff?
The reason hellblasters suck is more that the dude holding the gun sucks give pladma incinerators to scions and you're creating something 7th edition formation levels of broke.
Flamers got worse and more expensive BAD
Melta didn't really change but got 40% point increase BAD
Grav got nerfed so probably did deserve a points deduction. Ok
Plasma got buffed and the biggest points deduction. Rediculous The issue is Plasma set the tone for GW to balance against and then handed the most buffed weapon to the most buffed faction at an even cheaper points cost.
Grav was boosted in 7th to give marines a boost without buffing non marines.
Just to compete with plasma Melta would need to drop back to 10 points maybe even down to 8 seing as how rediculously better plasma is.
Flamers would need to be 2 points or such to be worth taking.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 23:07:40
Plasma got a lot worse. It used to allow you an invun save and a FNP for the single wound it did to you per fail. Now it outright slays you. You can't ignore this. Killing yourself is terrible. If a weapon can do that - it should get about a 50% drop in points.
Grav became worthless. It lost its easy wounding properties and in general lost a shot too.
Melta is fine but suffers from the games rules of -1 to hit and invulnerable save inflation. When units don't have these things melta is amazing. I think Melta should probably get "+1 to wound against vehicals" then it might start to compete as a choice. That and MM needs to be 2 friggin shots (for 0 points increases)
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Plasma got a lot worse. It used to allow you an invun save and a FNP for the single wound it did to you per fail. Now it outright slays you. You can't ignore this. Killing yourself is terrible. If a weapon can do that - it should get about a 50% drop in points.
Grav became worthless. It lost its easy wounding properties and in general lost a shot too.
Melta is fine but suffers from the games rules of -1 to hit and invulnerable save inflation. When units don't have these things melta is amazing. I think Melta should probably get "+1 to wound against vehicals" then it might start to compete as a choice. That and MM needs to be 2 friggin shots (for 0 points increases)
Except for the fact that this never matters for space marines. I've not lost a model to an overcharge in weeks. Used correctly, you should be hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's.
That aside:
Melta should go to S9, drop the 2D6 pick the highest dmg in favor of cause an extra wound to vehicles on a 2+ to hit.
Flamers should have "when selecting this weapon to fire overwatch, roll 1d3 automatic hits.
Gravity...I have no idea what to do with gravity.
I never understood why the MM was "more range" instead of "more shots" putting two barrels on a shot gun doesn't make it shot farther.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 14:36:42
Xenomancers wrote: Plasma got a lot worse. It used to allow you an invun save and a FNP for the single wound it did to you per fail. Now it outright slays you. You can't ignore this. Killing yourself is terrible. If a weapon can do that - it should get about a 50% drop in points.
Grav became worthless. It lost its easy wounding properties and in general lost a shot too.
Melta is fine but suffers from the games rules of -1 to hit and invulnerable save inflation. When units don't have these things melta is amazing. I think Melta should probably get "+1 to wound against vehicals" then it might start to compete as a choice. That and MM needs to be 2 friggin shots (for 0 points increases)
Disagree with your assessment, you say plasma got worse because of the changes to overheat, I say that's so irrelevant due to the ability to reroll almost everything being so widespread.
Also how many invulnerable saves and FNP's were you rolling fir tac marines etc in 7th edition?
Also you can't really deny that if your using rhe 7th edition equivalent statline that 8th edition plasma doesn't actually have a gets hot rule.
Xenomancers wrote: Plasma got a lot worse. It used to allow you an invun save and a FNP for the single wound it did to you per fail. Now it outright slays you. You can't ignore this. Killing yourself is terrible. If a weapon can do that - it should get about a 50% drop in points.
Grav became worthless. It lost its easy wounding properties and in general lost a shot too.
Melta is fine but suffers from the games rules of -1 to hit and invulnerable save inflation. When units don't have these things melta is amazing. I think Melta should probably get "+1 to wound against vehicals" then it might start to compete as a choice. That and MM needs to be 2 friggin shots (for 0 points increases)
Disagree with your assessment, you say plasma got worse because of the changes to overheat, I say that's so irrelevant due to the ability to reroll almost everything being so widespread.
Also how many invulnerable saves and FNP's were you rolling fir tac marines etc in 7th edition?
Also you can't really deny that if your using rhe 7th edition equivalent statline that 8th edition plasma doesn't actually have a gets hot rule.
I can tell you don't actually play marines. THe only army really using plasma because it has no other option.
With no -1 to hit penalties 1/3 of your hits miss - and it's well within reason for up to half miss on a typical dice roll. So when you are shooting 14-20ish plasma shots (think plasma inceptors and Hellblasters). You are rerolling between 6-10 dice. You can mitgate this by not rerolling your 2's BUT mathematically you are better off rerolling them. Doesn't mean it will work out for you. Roll 2-3 ones on that roll and you deal just about as much damage to yourself as you dealt to your opponent (esp if they have 4++ or 3++ saves).
Any alderi can basically make your plasma useless.
Custodians always have the -1 to hit banner
Flyers
Tau can do it on demand
not to mention all the units that have natural -1 to hits
Forget all that -1 to hit nonsense though. Plasma is more than capable of inflicting crippling damage on yourself even with reroll 1's.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 15:33:12
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Plasma got a lot worse. It used to allow you an invun save and a FNP for the single wound it did to you per fail. Now it outright slays you. You can't ignore this. Killing yourself is terrible. If a weapon can do that - it should get about a 50% drop in points.
Plasma got a straight buff.
In 6E/7E, it was S7 and risked hurting you on 1s.
In 8E, it is S7 with no risk.
They added an Overcharge version - you can now hit as hard as a MeltaGun on a RF1 24" gun, but risk blowing yourself up a fraction of the time.
That's a pure, direct upgrade. It is the exact same in every way except for where it's better. And that's before considering it can now be "overcharged".
Melta is fine but suffers from the games rules of -1 to hit and invulnerable save inflation. When units don't have these things melta is amazing. I think Melta should probably get "+1 to wound against vehicals" then it might start to compete as a choice.
Melta lost out huge. Before 8th, it had a good chance for any given hit to outright destroy a vehicle. And, even if the pen dice hated you, it'd pop almost any vehicle in 3 wounds - 4 for stuff like Land Raiders. Now, it's not even possible to kill most vehicles with one, only light vehicles can be killed even if you're lucky with 2. You need 3 successful wounds to possibly kill a Land Raider if you roll amazing - it could take up to 16!
Melta is still, in theory, the weapon you take because it's the highest S and highest D of the Specials. But Plasma kills Vehicles even faster (albeit with a small risk of going boom). While also killing everything else faster.
So why specialize with Melta, when Plasma does it - and every other job - better?
Clearly, either Plasma needs a nerf or Melta needs a buff (possbly both).
That and MM needs to be 2 friggin shots (for 0 points increases)
MM does need a buff (although not wild about 2 shots).
Xenomancers wrote: Plasma got a lot worse. It used to allow you an invun save and a FNP for the single wound it did to you per fail. Now it outright slays you. You can't ignore this. Killing yourself is terrible. If a weapon can do that - it should get about a 50% drop in points.
Grav became worthless. It lost its easy wounding properties and in general lost a shot too.
Melta is fine but suffers from the games rules of -1 to hit and invulnerable save inflation. When units don't have these things melta is amazing. I think Melta should probably get "+1 to wound against vehicals" then it might start to compete as a choice. That and MM needs to be 2 friggin shots (for 0 points increases)
Disagree with your assessment, you say plasma got worse because of the changes to overheat, I say that's so irrelevant due to the ability to reroll almost everything being so widespread.
Also how many invulnerable saves and FNP's were you rolling fir tac marines etc in 7th edition?
Also you can't really deny that if your using rhe 7th edition equivalent statline that 8th edition plasma doesn't actually have a gets hot rule.
I can tell you don't actually play marines. THe only army really using plasma because it has no other option.
With no -1 to hit penalties 1/3 of your hits miss - and it's well within reason for up to half miss on a typical dice roll. So when you are shooting 14-20ish plasma shots (think plasma inceptors and Hellblasters). You are rerolling between 6-10 dice. You can mitgate this by not rerolling your 2's BUT mathematically you are better off rerolling them. Doesn't mean it will work out for you. Roll 2-3 ones on that roll and you deal just about as much damage to yourself as you dealt to your opponent (esp if they have 4++ or 3++ saves).
Any alderi can basically make your plasma useless.
If you're overcharging when shooting at Rangers halfway across the map with LQR and Conceal, you're doing it wrong.
If you're overcharging shooting Eldar infantry, you're doing it wrong, too. S7 D1 kills them just as readily as S8 D2.
If you're shooting tanks, you have the choice between risking the firer for more than double damage, or not risking the firer. Either way, you do serious damage to them (Again, unless you're firing at >12" against a LQR Alaitoc vehicle that advanced last turn with engines - but you shouldn't be able to hit that thing easily.)
Custodians always have the -1 to hit banner
Flyers
Tau can do it on demand
not to mention all the units that have natural -1 to hits
Forget all that -1 to hit nonsense though. Plasma is more than capable of inflicting crippling damage on yourself even with reroll 1's.
If you don't want to risk blowing up, then don't overcharge - S7 with good AP is good. If you want uber OC damage, you pay for it with the risk of going boom. It's still a flat upgrade over what it was last edition.
Uhhh - there are so many weapons that give boom without killing themselves. That argument is meaningless.
One needs only to look at dessie cannons and star cannons to know plasma is Gak.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 16:00:52
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Bharring wrote: Depends on the target. For many, it wounds on 2s and denies any armor save - at RF2.
But the cost is high as well as the opportunity cost.
Are you telling me you'd take flamers (ha), meltaguns (one shot), or grav-guns (9" rapid fire?) if the multi-damage mode didn't have good targets on your plasma guns?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: Uhhh - there are so many weapons that give boom without killing themselves. That argument is meaningless.
One needs only to look at dessie cannons and star cannons to know plasma is Gak.
This strikes me as an odd comparison, given that starcannons and disintegrators are the primary armament of tanks and a plasma gun is a rifle a random infantryman can cart around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 16:05:02
So all your complaints about how utterly useless your Space Marines are are based on squads that you've deliberately built to be unable to effectively damage anything bigger than a Guardsman?
Martel732 wrote: That's not the fundamental problem. All the special weapons are now fatally flawed for marines. Plasma is great on scions, trash on marines.
I'm not using squads that can even take plasma anymore.
Also, killing guardsmen is often a limiting factor, so i dont understand your counterpoint.
I have to agree the fundamental problem with marines is they're over paying heavily for a statline that means nothing like what it's pointed as if it means. Making tac marines more points without a defensive buff is just handing out free points realy.
