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I agree. I already stated that my stance is "ok for now, will check to make sure it stays ok after GW releases new material". Which I felt was pretty reasonable, but then I got the proverbial beatdown over it.

I am surprised the lists aren't bigger.

But wait, if this were a finalized thing- then GW would have put them in a book and sold them to us.

These are living documents. That's what this means.

These lists will expand.

...and this is the part where I give that awkward chuckle, with a dead look in my eyes, and say "I told you so..."

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

These are living documents. That's what this means.

These lists will expand.

Yes, of course.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, of course.

It's sad, and I'll tell you exactly why.

It's not that I'm particularly bothered about the screeching grognards with their beakies, bellowing that GW is some monster for invalidating their models or something (this honestly amuses me when it crosses into hyperbolic lunacy, I've seen guys speak of this like someone was putting their own children in front of a firing squad).

It's the fact that these models mentioned in the Adeptus Astartes list are usually models I've seen people make, and they are some fantastic conversions. I hope I don't see them completely gone from the tables.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, of course.

It's sad, and I'll tell you exactly why.

It's not that I'm particularly bothered about the screeching grognards with their beakies, bellowing that GW is some monster for invalidating their models or something (this honestly amuses me when it crosses into hyperbolic lunacy, I've seen guys speak of this like someone was putting their own children in front of a firing squad).

It's the fact that these models mentioned in the Adeptus Astartes list are usually models I've seen people make, and they are some fantastic conversions. I hope I don't see them completely gone from the tables.

What GW is doing is fine. They no longer produce these models, but they provide legacy rules for them, so the models still can be used. And it is good to know that they have this system in place for that. It is pretty much guaranteed now, that if any current models will go out of production at some point (such as the minimarines.) they will continue to be supported in this way. It is just the masochistic lunacy that has overtaken a big part of the playerbase that is the problem. They refuse to use these perfectly fine and legal rules and at the same time lament that they cannot use their old models anymore! That is the sad part.

I am a little sad to not see my RT Chaplain armed with power sabre & bolt pistol.

How dare they!

 Crimson wrote:
What GW is doing is fine. They no longer produce these models, but they provide legacy rules for them, so the models still can be used. And it is good to know that they have this system in place for that. It is pretty much guaranteed now, that if any current models will go out of production at some point (such as the minimarines.) they will continue to be supported in this way. It is just the masochistic lunacy that has overtaken a big part of the playerbase that is the problem. They refuse to use these perfectly fine and legal rules and at the same time lament that they cannot use their old models anymore! That is the sad part.

Well, let's put it this way- legacy rules are great support, but they aren't recommended for Competitive play unless there is an exemption. And, well- we all know what happens when GW lets the general public make their own decisions- either some really awesome things happen, or you end up with event organizers and FLGS owners in the US that tell people "Forge World models are banned, because they aren't official models." well into the year 2019.

The other part about this is, at least it seems to me- these models won't ever see a new and updated version. I could be wrong, but I think that this is the first step of the great OldMarine purge...

First. Playerbase lunacy is not GW's fault. The Legend rules clearly says they're good for matched play.

Secondly, Minimarines are obviously heading to squatsville, this has been clear for years. However, I don't think it is impossible that some things that are currently in the Legends could get new models and brought back into codices. GW's policy now just is that if a player buys a codex, all models and options in that codex should also be readily purchasable. If for example some some designer comes up a cool concept for new Rough Riders, then they could be made and the rules being put back into the codex.

 flandarz wrote:
Well, tell me Slayer: how many times has GW released rules for a unit that they didn't have a model for? Admittedly, I ain't been around the 40k scene for too long, but I imagine this might be the first time. So, you're obviously making a poor attempt at getting a "gotcha" moment. I'll just pass on that, thanks. Instead, I'll just take a screenshot of this conversation, and in... oh, 6-12 months when something happens, I'll DM it to ya. Sound good? Until then, feel free to feel superior and "right".

By your own admission you haven't been around "too long". So if you don't know what you're talking about on a subject then you shouldn't speak.

You want a specific example? The Land Raider.
They produced it in RT. They took it out of production just prior to 2nd ed. And then it didn't get a new model until 3rd. About a year into 3rd if I recall.

But from RT on, every edition & codex has had things with no specific model. Often characters due to war gear, but sometimes units, vehicles, weapon combo options.

Bit late to the party on that one; someone beat ya to it. However, I answered a question that the asker didn't want to take "I don't know" as an answer to. Sorry that ticked a nerve.

That said, maybe you can answer the question they posed: how many units with rules but without a model have been "broken"? Is the answer more than "zero"? Cuz, in that case, their assertion that Legends will never cause any issues is historically incorrect.

 flandarz wrote:
Bit late to the party on that one; someone beat ya to it. However, I answered a question that the asker didn't want to take "I don't know" as an answer to. Sorry that ticked a nerve.

That said, maybe you can answer the question they posed: how many units with rules but without a model have been "broken"? Is the answer more than "zero"? Cuz, in that case, their assertion that Legends will never cause any issues is historically incorrect.

Definitely more than zero.

Players don't tend to notice rules that don't have models when the rules suck.

 Crimson wrote:
First. Playerbase lunacy is not GW's fault. The Legend rules clearly says they're good for matched play.

Oh, of course- dumb gamers are not exclusive to any company, or any type of game at all. I could write you a book about all the... very interesting things I have discovered in MMORPG's (I should do a book, called "The Wrongest I Have Ever Been: It is actually NOT cool that millions of people play this together online". It's lengthy but it gets the point across. Gonna work on it).

 Crimson wrote:
Secondly, Minimarines are obviously heading to squatsville, this has been clear for years. However, I don't think it is impossible that some things that are currently in the Legends could get new models and brought back into codices. GW's policy now just is that if a player buys a codex, all models and options in that codex should also be readily purchasable. If for example some some designer comes up a cool concept for new Rough Riders, then they could be made and the rules being put back into the codex.

And I think if they do get brought back, there will need to be something 'else' to it. In other words, I think maybe in a few years all Marines will have roughly the same "Primaris" stat line, and it'll be a mix and match of the new and the old. And eventually, they'll bring those units back with an updated data sheet and a model, making the older ones valid.

 flandarz wrote:
Well, hypothetically, if GW was to increase SM HQ point costs by, say, 25% (perhaps in response to giving their HQs more Abilities, or better WTs) any Marine HQ that is in Legends will suddenly go to "must-take", as their prices will not change but they'll still be able to take advantage of these new rules. Or if they were to release a Stratagem or Ability that affects a certain Keyword (in order to buff some sub-par unit choice(s) in the Codex), but it also applies to an already good choice from Legends.

Just two possibilities. I'm certain there's others out there. Point is: assuming Legends will never have any issues in regards to balance is foolish.

With the possible dream fear Legends can cause for " What Ifs " it's pretty amazing. I'm willing to bet most of these options won't become the Boogeyman people may fear. Not when GW make their own Boogeymen right here in easily available models, such as all Marines with supplements, Knights, Guardsmen, Eldar flyers, etc, etc.

Life isn't black or white, it's somewhere in between and I think most players mull over what they pick and play with and against with logic of the experience they want. If people are going to live in fear of what if Legends becomes a monster REEEE ! I think they would be better served wondering how GW are going to bork the rules next, break the next faction, keep breaking marines, etc.That would be the bigger damage to balance and the more legitimate threat to worry about. Also the most unavoidable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I am surprised the lists aren't bigger.

But wait, if this were a finalized thing- then GW would have put them in a book and sold them to us.

These are living documents. That's what this means.

These lists will expand.

...and this is the part where I give that awkward chuckle, with a dead look in my eyes, and say "I told you so..."

So you want a cookie for predicting things will eventually cease to be ? I think people much smarter than you or I beat you to that rule of life. Marines will eventually fall away, but so will the game itself, and the company and the country that company is based in and the world itself and the solar system, etc, etc. Pointing a finger in the air and predicting the end will eventually prove to be accurate, that is the nature of universe. The only thing shocking is your grandiose self congratulating post, when you still haven't even been correct yet. Until all the old marines are there, you still aren't correct no matter how you " end is nigh " at everyone.

I'm sure though come the end of the world, there will be some crazy guy on the street corner who will also say " See ? I told you ! I knew it all along ! " I'm sure that'll be quite the good day for him.

Well, like I said, right now I think Legends are fine. Me and my group have decided they're ok to use. But we're also cognizant that future changes could break them (especially since GW has stated they won't get point changes or taken into account for balance purposes), so if things come up that cause issues, we'll reevaluate whether they're appropriate for our games or not.

Again, I think this is pretty reasonable. Some folks disagree. And that's 99% of the argument.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

So you want a cookie for predicting things will eventually cease to be ? I think people much smarter than you or I beat you to that rule of life. Marines will eventually fall away, but so will the game itself, and the company and the country that company is based in and the world itself and the solar system, etc, etc. Pointing a finger in the air and predicting the end will eventually prove to be accurate, that is the nature of universe. The only thing shocking is your grandiose self congratulating post, when you still haven't even been correct yet. Until all the old marines are there, you still aren't correct no matter how you " end is nigh " at everyone.

"They're still on the shelf and in the books for now!"

I hate to say it, bud- but my post is one of those cases where I wish I weren't right. And you can sit there and say that I'm wrong, but I assure you- it's coming. Haven't been seeing any 1-wound marine models for a while, have we? Not like they're getting anything flashy at all. That's what we call "keeping them on the books", because I'm pretty sure GW's next step is going to be "Space Marines are all the same", and they'll all run that same basic stat line.

Oh, hey, don't worry. Maybe just this one time, in all the times where I've predicted things, I'll be wrong. Maybe that will happen, in defiance of all the trends pointing to "I am right".

Don't worry, you will still be able to use your old models.

Yeah, see it's posts like this that honestly make those cookies taste sooooo much better. A little salty and soggy, but delicious.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

So you want a cookie for predicting things will eventually cease to be ? I think people much smarter than you or I beat you to that rule of life. Marines will eventually fall away, but so will the game itself, and the company and the country that company is based in and the world itself and the solar system, etc, etc. Pointing a finger in the air and predicting the end will eventually prove to be accurate, that is the nature of universe. The only thing shocking is your grandiose self congratulating post, when you still haven't even been correct yet. Until all the old marines are there, you still aren't correct no matter how you " end is nigh " at everyone.

"They're still on the shelf and in the books for now!"

I hate to say it, bud- but my post is one of those cases where I wish I weren't right. And you can sit there and say that I'm wrong, but I assure you- it's coming. Haven't been seeing any 1-wound marine models for a while, have we? Not like they're getting anything flashy at all. That's what we call "keeping them on the books", because I'm pretty sure GW's next step is going to be "Space Marines are all the same", and they'll all run that same basic stat line.

Oh, hey, don't worry. Maybe just this one time, in all the times where I've predicted things, I'll be wrong. Maybe that will happen, in defiance of all the trends pointing to "I am right".

Don't worry, you will still be able to use your old models.

Yeah, see it's posts like this that honestly make those cookies taste sooooo much better. A little salty and soggy, but delicious.

The only thing tragic here is your own sad sense of smug satisfaction when you're still wrong. Don't worry shinning light of wisdom, one day you'll be correct, sooner or later and on that day, if you or I or anyone on this forum cares, feel free to break that arm off patting yourself on the back. That day is not this day however. Doesn't matter how " It's coming !! " It gets, until it is in fact here, you're still in fact wrong. Good day Sir.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The only thing tragic here is your own sad sense of smug satisfaction when you're still wrong. Don't worry shinning light of wisdom, one day you'll be correct, sooner or later and on that day, if you or I or anyone on this forum cares, feel free to break that arm off patting yourself on the back. That day is not this day however. Doesn't matter how " It's coming !! " It gets, until it is in fact here, you're still in fact wrong. Good day Sir.

Like I said, it's coming. And you can rage at it all you want, it's still not going away. Attitudes like yours are what makes me honestly excited for the day. Oh, the salt will flow.

Don't worry, you'll still be able to use your old Space Marines.

By all means, though- keep raging. The results are going to be interesting. Or... maybe I'm wrong.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The only thing tragic here is your own sad sense of smug satisfaction when you're still wrong. Don't worry shinning light of wisdom, one day you'll be correct, sooner or later and on that day, if you or I or anyone on this forum cares, feel free to break that arm off patting yourself on the back. That day is not this day however. Doesn't matter how " It's coming !! " It gets, until it is in fact here, you're still in fact wrong. Good day Sir.

Like I said, it's coming. And you can rage at it all you want, it's still not going away. Attitudes like yours are what makes me honestly excited for the day. Oh, the salt will flow.

Don't worry, you'll still be able to use your old Space Marines.

Well the fact you suffer from Schadenfreude doesn't concern me. Until you're correct though, you're wrong. So why not bottle up all that anxious joy for that day when you can be right, wouldn't want to use it all up in flights of whimsy or dreams of what may come.

Hope is but a waking dream my friend. I'd say not to waste it looking forward to the sadness of others.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The only thing tragic here is your own sad sense of smug satisfaction when you're still wrong. Don't worry shinning light of wisdom, one day you'll be correct, sooner or later and on that day, if you or I or anyone on this forum cares, feel free to break that arm off patting yourself on the back. That day is not this day however. Doesn't matter how " It's coming !! " It gets, until it is in fact here, you're still in fact wrong. Good day Sir.

Like I said, it's coming. And you can rage at it all you want, it's still not going away. Attitudes like yours are what makes me honestly excited for the day. Oh, the salt will flow.

Don't worry, you'll still be able to use your old Space Marines.

By all means, though- keep raging. The results are going to be interesting. Or... maybe I'm wrong

If mini Marines are to be squatted, it’s not going to be any time soon.

While digging around for PA rumours I stumbled on rumours of the alleged 8.5/9th edition and a similar discussion was taking place there. The “leaker” who has some details of the next edition (rumoured for Summer) was quite certain that mini Marines were going to be around for a long time, at least another edition, if not longer.

Now I’ve no doubt GW are going to push Primaris, so it’s likely they get rules that encourage players to take them, instead of their older, mini Marine models, but Mini Marines absolutely can (and will, for the foreseeable) be used in all play environments.

the image of GW in this ridiculous position
with GI Joe 'boo-yah' immaculate nu-marines
squatting on their own best legacy OG marines
over the course of the next two generations of rules,
taking a long, slow dump on the chests of so many of us with half-finished project armies and yes, dreams, plans, futures (in some hobby way) wrapped up in this legacy is just too tragically demented to pass by in silence.
Nu-marines are a product of unhinged neo-liberal latter-day corporate capitalism, the Chernobyl of the Western wargaming world, and I will get about as close to them.
At least the stuff put into legends can't be further defiled.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I am a little sad to not see my RT Chaplain armed with power sabre & bolt pistol.

How dare they!

likewise, the default option on the buggy model has always been a multimelta, yet it isn't an option on the dataslate?!

At least they can finally dakka^3

 jeff white wrote:
the image of GW in this ridiculous position
with GI Joe 'boo-yah' immaculate nu-marines
squatting on their own best legacy OG marines
over the course of the next two generations of rules,
taking a long, slow dump on the chests of so many of us with half-finished project armies and yes, dreams, plans, futures (in some hobby way) wrapped up in this legacy is just too tragically demented to pass by in silence.
Nu-marines are a product of unhinged neo-liberal latter-day corporate capitalism, the Chernobyl of the Western wargaming world, and I will get about as close to them.
At least the stuff put into legends can't be further defiled.

Yes, making better looking plastic toy soldiers is certainly perfectly comparable to the a horrendous disaster that cost thousands of lives...

Better looking is purely subjective

I asked my local gw manager what the spread between new and old marine sales were and he guestimated a 60/40 split in favour of new marines. Purely anecdotal of course, but if even remotely accurate it's hard to see any business ignoring that kind of revenue stream.

With Oldboys being roughly equivalent now in terms of sheer dakka output, and the ability to pull off insane combos, I don't see them leaving anytime soon. Centurian Devs, Scouts, Drop Pods, and TFCs will still be a thing, until the meta shifts and the hardos move onto the next broken faction, and Old Marines stop selling.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well the fact you suffer from Schadenfreude doesn't concern me. Until you're correct though, you're wrong. So why not bottle up all that anxious joy for that day when you can be right, wouldn't want to use it all up in flights of whimsy or dreams of what may come.

Well, let's see... what have I been saying for about 2 years now? "They'll start phasing them out. First they'll stop making new ones. Then the old ones will gradually start to go into a sort of 'sure you can use it category' but they won't see any support or updates (YOU ARE HERE). And then, over time, the old models will all get phased into this category, then they'll drop a new edition later on that wraps them all up into the same category."

Hey, they said I was stupid when I said that "Space Marines are going to be redone" when the Primaris Marine pictures leaked, because those were obviously third party or converted truescale Marines and I didn't know what I was talking about. Oh, and let's see... "Horus Heresy support is going to slow down exponentially", but nope- I was an idiot because that was obviously the biggest and bestest game ever and billions of people play it and there's no way Forge World would slow down after 2016! Oh, and "Shadow War won't see any support, it's a failure"- nah, they obviously were going to push that for YEARS. "Kill Team will be an afterthought product, getting the crumbs from 40k"- I'll say the Rogue Trader caught me off guard, but really the only 'support' that game gets is repacked models and a copy/paste from a Codex with little change. "They'll only put like, one rotorcannon in that box of Havocs, watch." and there's another one...

It ain't a psychic power. If you watch GW long enough, they become predictable.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Hope is but a waking dream my friend. I'd say not to waste it looking forward to the sadness of others.

The fact that even in the worst case scenario I've predicted, "you will still be able to use your old models, but Primaris Marines will just be the standard Marine Stat line and they'll be the Tacticals, Devastators, etc with all the appropriate wargear"- well, yeah. I'm gonna relish that misery. "Model still valid" being the operative word. But we all know they won't be adding any new "Original Space Marines".

At worst, the old stumpy marines will have an extra wound and an extra attack. The kind of person that gets upset at that needs a laugh at his expense.

Anyway, watch as this list of "Legends" models grows over the next year, prior to the release of 8.5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeff white wrote:
the image of GW in this ridiculous position
with GI Joe 'boo-yah' immaculate nu-marines
squatting on their own best legacy OG marines
over the course of the next two generations of rules,
taking a long, slow dump on the chests of so many of us with half-finished project armies and yes, dreams, plans, futures (in some hobby way) wrapped up in this legacy is just too tragically demented to pass by in silence.
Nu-marines are a product of unhinged neo-liberal latter-day corporate capitalism, the Chernobyl of the Western wargaming world, and I will get about as close to them.
At least the stuff put into legends can't be further defiled.

This is the kind of post that makes me eager for the Great Purge of Astartes Shortboys.

Yeah, I remember that ork buggies were old looking even when I joined the hobby in 1999, after the release of the 3rd edition new range of ork models, and only 20 years later those buggies actually have been phased out.

What about metal sisters?

Like others said I also think that 1W marines and all their stuff will stay for a long time, if not forever.

 jeff white wrote:

Nu-marines are a product of unhinged neo-liberal latter-day corporate capitalism, the Chernobyl of the Western wargaming world, and I will get about as close to them.
At least the stuff put into legends can't be further defiled.

This might be the best sentence I've ever read on Dakka.

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, I remember that ork buggies were old looking even when I joined the hobby in 1999, after the release of the 3rd edition new range of ork models, and only 20 years later those buggies actually have been phased out.

What about metal sisters?

Like others said I also think that 1W marines and all their stuff will stay for a long time, if not forever.

Marines being the poster boys and getting new releases at much (MUCH!) faster pace than other armies will mean that such changes will be more rapid as well.

But now we know that in the case of eventual phase out the minimarines will have a home in the Legends and thus will remain usable.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

Nu-marines are a product of unhinged neo-liberal latter-day corporate capitalism, the Chernobyl of the Western wargaming world, and I will get about as close to them.
At least the stuff put into legends can't be further defiled.

This might be the best sentence I've ever read on Dakka.

In the category of 'Most Hilarious Hyperbole*, sure.

 catbarf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Rules for Matched play i can bring 6 flying hive tyrants. Going to fly with you?

Howabout 5 det's? Matched play legal

If someone is asking to use Legends rules to facilitate a high-power wombo combo in a competitive game, you are equally entitled to ask to ignore RO3.

If someone is asking to use Legends rules so they can use their lovingly-painted old collection, and you're asking to suspend RO3 so that you can take a cheesy WAAC list to curbstomp them in a casual game, you are 100% That Guy.

If someone is asking to use Legends rules so they can use their old collection, and you ask to suspend RO3 so that you could take more than three squads of IG Veterans to fit a 'veteran regiment' theme, then that's completely reasonable.

There is nuance here, and more choices beyond 'play according to tournament rules' and 'allow more casual rules, then bring an exploitative tournament mindset anyways to take advantage of it'.

100% this. Always blows my mind how many people seem to be determined to play this game with people whom they basically hate. So much stuff people complain about would be a total non-issue with just a modicum of sensible discussion.