Legends is truly the thing we feared.

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**Platuan4th**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, out of curiosity, how come there are no Squats in Legends? I would love to use a all Dwarven IG list...

Because there's no Squats in the Indexes. 40K Legends is just the Index stuff minus a few things.

**Galef**

Bdrone wrote:
your fear is already being realized i think, because at least one circuit already has stated they will soon enough. banning legends to me makes no sense at all, because how much of the stuff here was even competitive? if it was, it's unlikely to stay that way as rule and point creep continue onwards, so i don't see the point in banning legends, especially when the rules are right there for everyone to see. they will just no longer get used between the effort to make the models, and other models likely being better over time. anything that WAS viable likely won't be by next CA or the one after that, right?

i feel bad for white scars, ork, Space Wolf, and Dark Angel players especially. i lost some weapon options to this and characters, but i didn't lose an entire playstyle.

TO's banning Legends will have far less to do with them being competitive and the TOs just wanting to reduce options and source material they have to track.
But the perception will be that TOs think Legends options are competitive.

Side note, a 120pt Ven Dread with 2 Twin autocannons and AP-2 whiel the Dev Doctrine is active seems fairly competitive IMO. Not OP, but more then just a good option

-

**ccs**

Apple Peel wrote:
Everybody still wanting to play with your Legends options, what do yo do in the scenario in which all (for example) non-legends power mauls get a points increase, and your Legends unit(s) with power maul(s) doesn’t play with that increase. You now have an unfair advantage of cheaper power maul. Are you shelving your unit?

In the circle I play in one of two things will happen:

1) We'll just run the legends stuff as printed. A few pts difference isn't going to make a difference.

2) We'll just adjust the points of ALL power mauls.
It's not like this is difficult. Power mauls now cost xx? You pull out your pen, you cross out the cost in legends, you write in the new cost....
Same thing if something like a chaplain changes pts cost. Just adjust the bike mounted one by that amount of pts. We know what a bike costs, we know what a chaplain costs. Therefore we know what a chaplain on a bike should cost.

Honestly we'll likely default to #1. we're not playing in a tourney & it's not like we scrutinize each others lists.

**Eldarsif**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I think Legends is a good idea, unless it grows out of control, say entire factions go legend. (Glances at Greyknight with a begging cup in the corner and his "Will debase self for a supplement" sign)

Do none of you know that Age of Sigmar exists? We have whole factions there as Legends. They are even on the same page under a different banner.

I doubt Grey Knights will go into Legends unless they completely stop making them. Stuff that is going into Legends seems to be - for the most part - old resin models and options they have phased out.

**ccs**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, out of curiosity, how come there are no Squats in Legends? I would love to use a all Dwarven IG list...

Advice from a guy that owns a squat based IG force;
So just go buy a bunch of squats & use them as IG models.
The average squat model is wearing flak armor & a lasgun. Others have flak & a heavy weapon. Mole mortars? = regular mortars (it really doesn't matter if you describe the shell burrowing up & exploding or arcing over & exploding). Some of them are armed with bolt guns/bolt pistols/las pistols - looks like perfect sgt/HQ figs to me. Replace visible tank crew humans with squats.
There, that 90% of your force.

**Slayer-Fan123**

flandarz wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah, those unintended super powerful Chaplains on a bike are gone! Oh and those super broken Trueborn, what with their TWO attacks!

We literally just had an FAQ from GW about a FW unit that was "too strong" when combined with the IH stuff. So, while the options you mentioned likely aren't an issue NOW, they could become issues in the future as GW continues to release more content. And, since GW said they won't be supporting Legends anymore, that'll mean no FAQs, Errata, or point changes for these units.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Someone said 70% of players wouldn't allow it, well they can take a flying leap, I'll play with the 30% that actually kept their brain. If they are more afraid of Legends units than the actual op trash GW randomly toss out, they have more issues than Legends in an army list.

I suppose I misspoke. It's actually more like 75% of gaming groups. And I also said that most people are gonna be reasonable if you TALK TO THEM about it first. That said, there's two good reasons not to use Legends. 1) They are no longer gonna be supported by GW. Which means no point balances, no FAQs, and no Errata for them. So, if GW releases content which "breaks" something in Legends, you can have a pretty big problem. 2) since the models and wargear are out of production, new players don't have access to these "tools", creating an uneven playing field.

Mmmpi wrote:You're implying that the people acting outraged were, at some point, in agreement with GW. They were not.

What I was trying to imply was that everyone had 6 months or so to prepare for this. So why are they acting surprised that GW did the thing they said they were gonna do?

And Iron Hands rules were the problem, not the unit itself. Or are you saying rerolls for everyone is fine?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Irbis wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well then why didn't they put the thunderfire techmarine in to the GK codex. they put the normal version in. There is no model for a GK techmarine, so it is not like it is the lack of a GK specific model.

They have the psycannon razorback in the codex, but there is no model for it, shouldn't that be an legend option too?

GK never had thunderfire because they don't have artillery in general. They are not IF, sieges is not how they operate.

As for psycannon razorback, what's that then?

flandarz wrote:
something like 75% of 40k players take GW "recommendations" as rules (ex: Ro3)

Maybe, just maybe, people accept this as a rule because they are tired of TG spamming OP units (while smugly proclaiming "this is totes balanced, guv" and "just playing as INTENDED") and the rule of 3 is easy way of stopping that nonsense. I can't see most people minding Legends (unless someone finds broken wombo-combo in there) because nothing in there that I saw is even remotely on that level. It's as if context mattered, funny that...

And I still find it both weird and hilarious that we nearly have 2020 yet there are still people salty they can't WAAAC spamming most broken unit of the book exclusively to ruin the game for both players, especially seeing rule of 3 was always a thing in the history of 40K.

Polonius wrote:
I think the concern about organized play has more to do with future proofing than with the rules as they currently stand. Since these are models with key words and rules that could interact oddly with future rules, they probably want to make it very clear that these are not to be default part of organized play.

I don't see anything problematic there, certainly nothing on the scale of FW pay-to-win garbage (because stratagem buffing 80 pts dread will be totally balanced on 500 pts one that was never meant to have it, eh?). If GW keeps tiptoeing around that and nerfing core book rules instead of just plainly denying OP units access to them (essentially nerfing the 80 pts model, not the 500 pts one) I fail to see how they will block Legends.

Grimtuff wrote:
Because feth CSM players and their Contemptors, but they’re fine for loyalists to take as they’re in the codex.

Seeing GW contemptor has worse statline (which is laughable, FW one should have the same) and vastly worse weapons, yup, good riddance. FW contemptors are slightly less problematic than deredeo/leviathan, but seeing they make multiple Codex units instantly obsolete (especially Predators), I'd be fine with them being banned.

And I am still puzzled why people wanting to spam broken crap think hiding behind bad units, be they GW or FW, does anything. No, we're not talking about GW contemptor, which is mostly fine. We're talking about actually broken junk, please don't change the topic.

Ro3 was just created now though, compared to what happened in 6-7th, because GW admitted basically they can't balance units. 6th-7th aren't without unit issues but strangely a lot of those unit issues came from additional rules that were piled on through Formations or units that you couldn't limit in the first place, like Scatterbikes!

**flandarz**

I'm saying that if GW says "we ain't bothering with Legends anymore", then any rule interactions which cause issues with those Legends units will never be addressed. If you're honestly suggesting that we should just accept Legends without giving them a critical eye as new rules and point changes come along, then I don't know what else I can say to you. If your gaming group is fine with it, by all means: play them regardless of what comes down the pipe. As for myself and my group, we're allowing them (for now) and will decide whether to keep doing so as GW continues to release content.

**Nightlord1987**

Index options are kinda like Proxies... sure its allowed. But it be a lot cooler if you didn't.

**Slayer-Fan123**

flandarz wrote:
I'm saying that if GW says "we ain't bothering with Legends anymore", then any rule interactions which cause issues with those Legends units will never be addressed. If you're honestly suggesting that we should just accept Legends without giving them a critical eye as new rules and point changes come along, then I don't know what else I can say to you. If your gaming group is fine with it, by all means: play them regardless of what comes down the pipe. As for myself and my group, we're allowing them (for now) and will decide whether to keep doing so as GW continues to release content.

GW doesn't pay attention to unit interactions for their "legal" models to begin with!

**flandarz**

True, but they DO, generally, address them (eventually). Like I said, right now I believe Legends is fine. In the future? Who knows?

**Slayer-Fan123**

flandarz wrote:
True, but they DO, generally, address them (eventually). Like I said, right now I believe Legends is fine. In the future? Who knows?

You'd have to really be in denial that Chaplains are going to become so powerful they're gonna get a price increase to the point of being the same as the Bike entry.

Also it doesn't matter if you think GW addresses stuff because they go right back to messing it up again.

**flandarz**

You'd have to really be in denial to think that there is a zero chance that an issue will ever arise with this. Hell, you JUST said that GW "messes up" all the time. So, which is it? Are Legends going to be fine forever, or will GW screw things up (as they are wont to do)?

**Crimson**

flandarz wrote:
You'd have to really be in denial to think that there is a zero chance that an issue will ever arise with this. Hell, you JUST said that GW "messes up" all the time. So, which is it? Are Legends going to be fine forever, or will GW screw things up (as they are wont to do)?

"It is possible that one day GW will write brokenly OP Ork rules, thus to be on the safe side it is better that we just ban the Orks now."

Dealing with such hypotheticals is silly.

**Slayer-Fan123**

flandarz wrote:
You'd have to really be in denial to think that there is a zero chance that an issue will ever arise with this. Hell, you JUST said that GW "messes up" all the time. So, which is it? Are Legends going to be fine forever, or will GW screw things up (as they are wont to do)?

Well tell you what. If you can name how many cases of "no model" really leads to something broken you would have a point

**flandarz**

Well, considering this format is brand new (they used to just take all your rules away and shrug), I'll wait on that. You should too, cuz when an issue inevitably comes up with Legends, you might wanna remember when you said the equivalent of "Nah. Anything in Legends would never cause an unexpected (and powerful) interaction with the new material GW is publishing. It', frankly, impossible."

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

I would like to point out that the Sisters were released and on day one it was revealed that the Cannoness (The primary HQ of the faction) is already not legal with her current war gear options. See: Plasma Pistol and Rod.

Yes. GW if capable of screwing the grot on this one in the VERY real future.

**Sunny Side Up**

Crimson wrote:
flandarz wrote:
You'd have to really be in denial to think that there is a zero chance that an issue will ever arise with this. Hell, you JUST said that GW "messes up" all the time. So, which is it? Are Legends going to be fine forever, or will GW screw things up (as they are wont to do)?

"It is possible that one day GW will write brokenly OP Ork rules, thus to be on the safe side it is better that we just ban the Orks now."

Dealing with such hypotheticals is silly.

You have to, as people refuse to deal with the practical. GW did write brokenly OP Space Marine rules, but no TO bans them. Until we get more acceptance for events to move quickly on the actual problems, the least we can do is work with hypotheticals to minimize future risks.

**flandarz**

And I never said that, btw, Crimson. I was clear that, in my group, we allow Legends. For now. I'm also being realistic that, maybe, one day, sometime in the future, probably, GW will release something, or adjust points, or write a FAQ or Errata poorly, and what is ok right now won't be in the future. And when that happens, myself and my group will reevaluate whether Legends is still gonna be allowed for us. But the argument Slayer was putting forth (that Legends will be fine forever) is just silly, and ignores everything GW has done to this point.

**Slayer-Fan123**

flandarz wrote:
And I never said that, btw, Crimson. I was clear that, in my group, we allow Legends. For now. I'm also being realistic that, maybe, one day, sometime in the future, probably, GW will release something, or adjust points, or write a FAQ or Errata poorly, and what is ok right now won't be in the future. And when that happens, myself and my group will reevaluate whether Legends is still gonna be allowed for us. But the argument Slayer was putting forth (that Legends will be fine forever) is just silly, and ignores everything GW has done to this point.

You're going under the expectation that points are going to drastically change. In reality, that's not going to happen. You DID look at the Legendary entries right?

You also have yet to present a time where a unit didn't have a model and it was a pure disaster.

**Galas**

The only OP index interaction I have seen whas the Eldar Autarc with reaper missile launcher and the Warlord Trait that made him a sniper.

**flandarz**

Well, tell me Slayer: how many times has GW released rules for a unit that they didn't have a model for? Admittedly, I ain't been around the 40k scene for too long, but I imagine this might be the first time. So, you're obviously making a poor attempt at getting a "gotcha" moment. I'll just pass on that, thanks. Instead, I'll just take a screenshot of this conversation, and in... oh, 6-12 months when something happens, I'll DM it to ya. Sound good? Until then, feel free to feel superior and "right".

**the_scotsman**

flandarz wrote:
Well, tell me Slayer: how many times has GW released rules for a unit that they didn't have a model for? Admittedly, I ain't been around the 40k scene for too long, but I imagine this might be the first time. So, you're obviously making a poor attempt at getting a "gotcha" moment. I'll just pass on that, thanks. Instead, I'll just take a screenshot of this conversation, and in... oh, 6-12 months when something happens, I'll DM it to ya. Sound good? Until then, feel free to feel superior and "right".

This is adorable, because that's literally how 40k codexes worked for...all the editions up to like 7th?

You'd get a new codex, and go 'oh, wow, a new Tyranid called a Smarglefex that has Grazzwossler cannons and gribblesnub scythes! That sounds AWESOME! Wish there was even a drawing of it! In 7 years when they release that model it'll be sweet I'll bet."

**flandarz**

Really? That's neat (as I said, I am admittedly new to 40k). Side note: how many of the times that they did that did it cause balance issues? Asking for a friend. I assume more than "never".

**Crimson**

How exactly you imagine that could cause balance problems?

**Polonius**

the_scotsman wrote:
This is adorable, because that's literally how 40k codexes worked for...all the editions up to like 7th?

You'd get a new codex, and go 'oh, wow, a new Tyranid called a Smarglefex that has Grazzwossler cannons and gribblesnub scythes! That sounds AWESOME! Wish there was even a drawing of it! In 7 years when they release that model it'll be sweet I'll bet."

It was only a common practice in 5th edition and slightly into 6th. Imperial Guard and tyranids were the big offenders, with both having codexes that included either straight up FW units (medusa, Shrikes), OOP units that were now FW only (Griffon), or thinly veiled twists on FW units (bombard). This was also when SM got access to FW dreadnought options. The big counterexamples were the Wave Serpent, which was introduced in the 3rd edition BBB and made by FW but not released in plastic until late 3rd/early 4th, and the drop pod, which got rules in 4th edition and a model many years later.

**Galef**

Galas wrote:
The only OP index interaction I have seen whas the Eldar Autarc with reaper missile launcher and the Warlord Trait that made him a sniper.

And that's hardly OP because you can only do that ONCE. And it can't one-shot characters that are anywhere near the points investment to get that Aurtach
Marine lists, otoh, can get 3x 3 Eliminators to remove support characters wholesale

-

**flandarz**

Well, hypothetically, if GW was to increase SM HQ point costs by, say, 25% (perhaps in response to giving their HQs more Abilities, or better WTs) any Marine HQ that is in Legends will suddenly go to "must-take", as their prices will not change but they'll still be able to take advantage of these new rules. Or if they were to release a Stratagem or Ability that affects a certain Keyword (in order to buff some sub-par unit choice(s) in the Codex), but it also applies to an already good choice from Legends.

Just two possibilities. I'm certain there's others out there. Point is: assuming Legends will never have any issues in regards to balance is foolish.

**Marin**

kingheff wrote:
So the bonesinger is now legendary apparently and costs the usual 70pts. Chapter approved lists a new discount price of 55pts...

I was wondering about that too. They just made him kind of playable with moving him into the HQ slot and now he is legend with the old point coast.
Also they forgot to include daemon princess range weapons

**Polonius**

flandarz wrote:
Well, hypothetically, if GW was to increase SM HQ point costs by, say, 25% (perhaps in response to giving their HQs more Abilities, or better WTs) any Marine HQ that is in Legends will suddenly go to "must-take", as their prices will not change but they'll still be able to take advantage of these new rules. Or if they were to release a Stratagem or Ability that affects a certain Keyword (in order to buff some sub-par unit choice(s) in the Codex), but it also applies to an already good choice from Legends.

Just two possibilities. I'm certain there's others out there. Point is: assuming Legends will never have any issues in regards to balance is foolish.

Another possibility would be if they lower the wound count on models, but include a special rule that helps mitigate damage. Suddenly 5 or 6 wound characters might be tougher.

**Crimson**

Most Legend models are far from amazing already, and given that trend is to lower point costs far more often than rise them, it is far more likely that the Legends will become overpriced over time rather than underpriced.

Sure, there is a chance that some later changes might make some Legend units better than they're currently, but I find it unlikely that they would become game breakingly OP. GW's balancing simply is not good enough for minute differences to matter.

Can it in theory happen that some weird combination of relics, warlord traits etc with some rule in Legends will cause some hilarious unintended power combo that totally breaks the game? Yes, it is possible but not at all likely. If it happens, you can worry about it then. And so can GW. And even in such situation it would be unnecessary to ban Legends as a whole, merely that one specific combo.