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Rules and lore are still related. But I challenge you to find the piece of lore that says the ranks of the Night Lords don't include Possessed, Daemon Princes, or Chaos Marines with Marks.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Rules and lore are still related. But I challenge you to find the piece of lore that says the ranks of the Night Lords don't include Possessed, Daemon Princes, or Chaos Marines with Marks.

Yes many war bands include them. But they are generally looked down on and are used as weopons.

That's what you're not getting about many of the legions. Yes they use these things but not because they like them, but because they need them as weapons of war.

Chaos doesn't have the industrial power of the Imperium. So they use what they can against it. Would they rather have the weapons and technology they had in the Crusade and heresy instead of unreliable and unpredictable things like daemon engines or actual daemons? I'd say probably yes in many cases. But they don't have the industry or technology to produce them so they use what they can to wage war on their enemies. That doesn't mean they worship them necessarily.

Sometimes the ends justify the means. You're still thinking in Hollywood blockbuster terms.

If you want to think in game terms compare an executioner tank to a forge fiend. If heretic astartes had the ability to produce something like the executioner do you think they would instead continue to rely on things like the forge fiend instead because it's more "evil "?

Right. In their arrogance they think they can use daemons without being corrupted. And that's their downfall. That's the whole point. "I can stop whenever I want! I'm in total control!" They say as they start backstabbing each other, murder thousands of innocents to summon daemons, and watch their former squadmates get turned into Chaos Spawn. They're gone but they don't admit it to themselves because of their pride. "Bob got turned into spawn because he was weak! I'm better than that!". Our hero says as he makes even worse deals with daemons and slides further down the path to damnation, all the while raiding merchant vessels and murdering all on board for supplies, or butchering PDF to use in some ritual of power.

"I'm not evil, I instill terror and slaughter innocents out of necessity, man!"

They're evil if you adopt wholesale the subjective morality of the IoM.

They're not if you adopt the subjective morality of Chaos.

Again, Aquinas was full of gak.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Right. In their arrogance they think they can use daemons without being corrupted. And that's their downfall. That's the whole point. "I can stop whenever I want! I'm in total control!" They say as they start backstabbing each other, murder thousands of innocents to summon daemons, and watch their former squadmates get turned into Chaos Spawn. They're gone but they don't admit it to themselves because of their pride. "Bob got turned into spawn because he was weak! I'm better than that!". Our hero says as he makes even worse deals with daemons and slides further down the path to damnation, all the while raiding merchant vessels and murdering all on board for supplies, or butchering PDF to use in some ritual of power.

"I'm not evil, I instill terror and slaughter innocents out of necessity, man!"

Yes, just like the inquisitor who virus bombs an entire planet because of the presence of a single cult,the guard commander who hurls millions of his troops into pointless and unwinnable charges, the space marine chapter that forces its aspirants into being possessed by daemons to make them stronger, or the valiant Grey Knights who after a successful action murder all the innocents who were unlucky enough to see them. Or of course the daily sacrificing of thousands to feed the individual whose arrogance caused the whole fething mess in the first place.

I think you might be getting it.


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 Excommunicatus wrote:
They're evil if you adopt wholesale the subjective morality of the IoM.

They're not if you adopt the subjective morality of Chaos.

Again, Aquinas was full of gak.

Yup. All in your point of view.

I never said the Imperium isn't evil. But to suggest that Chaos isn't? When they're working alongside/worshipping the chaos gods? Yeahhh, that's a hard sell.

Ok so here's a question: Can you come up with an example of a Chaos Marine force protecting innocents without any ulterior motive? And I don't mean deciding not to slaughter them that day. I mean going out of their way to protect innocents? Because much of the Imperiums evil comes from either incompetence, or being over-zealously protective in a grim calculation sort of way. (Like murdering a planet full of people so no taint of chaos can spread).

It's not my point of view. It's basic logic.

This is a really interesting question and chat. it makes me think that one of the big challenges with the Imperium, and maybe even part of the human condition, is a lack of self-awareness about cause and effect. It seems no one in the Imperium every really acknowledges that by creating a miserable society they are partly responsible for making chaos more attractive. It's something you see in businesses all the time - leadership refusing to acknowledge that circumstances they have created are causing problems.

One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that some Legions, or their commanders may have fallen for good reasons, or at least fell with the best interests of mankind at heart, but that after 10,000 years those reasons are no longer relevant.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all, but once you arrive there, what set you on the path, and who you were then is no longer what keeps you going or who you are.

Bran Dawri wrote:
One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that some Legions, or their commanders may have fallen for good reasons, or at least fell with the best interests of mankind at heart, but that after 10,000 years those reasons are no longer relevant.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all, but once you arrive there, what set you on the path, and who you were then is no longer what keeps you going or who you are.

^Exactly.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that some Legions, or their commanders may have fallen for good reasons, or at least fell with the best interests of mankind at heart, but that after 10,000 years those reasons are no longer relevant.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all, but once you arrive there, what set you on the path, and who you were then is no longer what keeps you going or who you are.

^Exactly.

Exactly? Then doesn't this also describe the Imperium? Do they not pave the road to hell with their good intentions as well? The Imperium commits evil in the name of good all the time.

Remember evil is subjective and there are no good guys in 40k.

There are better and worse guys though. The Imperium, for all it's flaws is still functioning on the principle of the survival of humankind. The goal of the Chaos gods is basically eternal strife for everybody, because thats how they derive their power.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that some Legions, or their commanders may have fallen for good reasons, or at least fell with the best interests of mankind at heart, but that after 10,000 years those reasons are no longer relevant.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all, but once you arrive there, what set you on the path, and who you were then is no longer what keeps you going or who you are.

^Exactly.

Exactly? Then doesn't this also describe the Imperium? Do they not pave the road to hell with their good intentions as well? The Imperium commits evil in the name of good all the time.

Remember evil is subjective and there are no good guys in 40k.

Eh. Evil is only subjective up to a point.

If someone is murderraping populations to get a pair of wings so they can murderrape for eternity, there isn't any room for 'From my perspective, the Jedi are evil' discussions.

'The Imperium also does evil things' doesn't somehow tip the moral scales in a way that this becomes confusing or unclear.

Support for Chaos becomes very easy (for humans) if you get even a modicum of understanding of how the Warp works. Once you realize that the line about finding peace with the Emperor after death is pure horse puckey, and that the afterlife for human beings is an eternity of being torn asunder in the psychic agony of the Warp, it's pretty easy to see Chaos as being the only viable alternative. Because, for most people, it is.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Support for Chaos becomes very easy (for humans) if you get even a modicum of understanding of how the Warp works. Once you realize that the line about finding peace with the Emperor after death is pure horse puckey, and that the afterlife for human beings is an eternity of being torn asunder in the psychic agony of the Warp, it's pretty easy to see Chaos as being the only viable alternative. Because, for most people, it is.

I think I remember something about human souls not being strong enough to remain "coherent" after death. Basically if you're human, your soul dissolves into the warp immediately when you die, so there's not much of an "eternal torment." There's no "sit by the Emperor's side" either, but that's another matter.

 Tiennos wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Support for Chaos becomes very easy (for humans) if you get even a modicum of understanding of how the Warp works. Once you realize that the line about finding peace with the Emperor after death is pure horse puckey, and that the afterlife for human beings is an eternity of being torn asunder in the psychic agony of the Warp, it's pretty easy to see Chaos as being the only viable alternative. Because, for most people, it is.

I think I remember something about human souls not being strong enough to remain "coherent" after death. Basically if you're human, your soul dissolves into the warp immediately when you die, so there's not much of an "eternal torment." There's no "sit by the Emperor's side" either, but that's another matter.

Well yes but no.
See, faith may be strong enough to actually bring about such a place due to the nature of the warp.

pm713 wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
During Black Crusades they fly out of Eye of Terra, usually through most fortified areas in the galaxy and wages total war on galactic scale against Imperium.

The same Imperium that simultaneously fights Chaos, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Tau, rebels, Necrons and who knows how many minor Xenos. Chaos fights nowhere near as much and has vastly inferior resources.

Imperium usually prioritizes like it did with Damocles crusade. In lore there are plenty of remarks that Imperium can't spare any resources to any other threat due to Black Crusades.

Chaos are impressive and powerful, but they aren't as powerful as the whole Imperium. Of course the Imperium, by its very nature, also can't bring all of its power to one spot. Not only would it be an insane risk; but they also lack the organisational structure and they've other threats. As noted there's Tyranids sending huge fleets that smash tehir way to Space Marine homeworlds; there's Orks causing trouble on any world they see; there's Eldar doing sneaky stuff; there's the continual and steady expansion of Tau space and of Necrons waking up. There's Dark Eldar doing dark sneaky things. All this ontop of the Imperiums own internal power struggles and problems all layered atop Chaos and Genestealers all causing uprisings and turmoil on worlds.

Chaos soaks up majority of Imperial resources during major Black Crusades. It fights in most fortified and reinforced regions in the galaxy. How many times Cadia was on a very brink of destruction before? How many sectors were besieged and defenders spread thin? We are talking about taking a galactic level empire. It has simply insane industrial and manpower resources. If Chaos is capable of seriously threatening its key strategic regions despite Imperium trying its best to fortify them, it says something about how well Chaos operates. It is not like winning a battle, winning such war requires simply apocalyptic level of resources. Fuel for ship, vehicles. Ammo in the billions. Troops in millions. Where you get food for those troops? Who supplies those troops with weapons? Who keeps those troops in line and organizes them into effective force? Who supplies and repairs Chaos armada? Who continues to supply Chaos troops on a ground? Logistics at such galactic scale are immense. I by no means say that Chaos excels at this aspect, I'm just pointing out that in order to wage war on such massive scale you need more than a loosely organized band of raiders. You need immense organization and logistical chain back at home which is impossible to accomplish if your forge world is running on empty threats and intimidation and your demons keep killing every mortal on sight. And during the Long War during many Black Crusades, not all of them were just meant to raid and to steal something. This only became more and more important as Black Crusades continued to grow in scale and ambition. Chaos did not self-destroyed as most Imperial thinkers thought. It survived in Eye of Terror and it kept growing for 10 thousand years until during its first attempt to break through into real space and brake Imperium apart, it almost succeeded if not for medling of those damn children! Resurrecting Pappa smurf and all this nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I never said the Imperium isn't evil. But to suggest that Chaos isn't? When they're working alongside/worshipping the chaos gods? Yeahhh, that's a hard sell.

Ok so here's a question: Can you come up with an example of a Chaos Marine force protecting innocents without any ulterior motive? And I don't mean deciding not to slaughter them that day. I mean going out of their way to protect innocents? Because much of the Imperiums evil comes from either incompetence, or being over-zealously protective in a grim calculation sort of way. (Like murdering a planet full of people so no taint of chaos can spread).

I do not think that discussion here is about Imperium being evil and Chaos good. I believe that people here are arguing that there isn't an essential difference between Chaos and Imperium in terms of evilness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
There are better and worse guys though. The Imperium, for all it's flaws is still functioning on the principle of the survival of humankind. The goal of the Chaos gods is basically eternal strife for everybody, because thats how they derive their power.

Ironically, it is Chaos who represents humanity's salvation. In lore it is remarked quite often that in Chaos humanity is stronger than in Order. This is because that instead average citizen being emotionless and powerless, Chaos promotes self-strength and development. This results in hardy populations which produces hardy warriors. Just look civilized vs uncivilized societies in our world. Constant war, competition and ambition is that makes Chaos stronger. Its unashamed nature and promotion of emotion and human feelings of all kind is that makes them unmatched. Human emotion is that tore galaxy apart and as side effect saved thousands of worlds from depravity of xenos. How now Tyranids will nom nom those planets if writers are not idiots? In a same manner, Chaos is invested into evolution of mankind and this psychic awakening was direct cause of our devotion to Chaos. It had made humanity so much greater and powerful than it would had been otherwise. Now with mere word we can summon legions of demons to help us and with a gesture of our hand we can send Carnifexes flying into a sky. This is the true pinnacle of human form and whatever you like it or not, Chaos had helped humanity to evolve to its next form as a race.


Personally, I want to view Chaos in complex and mature fashion. W40k often suffers from writers not knowing what they are doing and writing nonsensical Dragon Ball Z stuff. It pains me to see these new closet marines. It pains me to see Chaos portrayed as "Muahaha, lets be super evil!" without ever exploring it deeper. In time it creates extreme logical fallacies like I had mentioned before. If Chaos is just super evil and murderrapping each other all the time, who is then running the economy of Chaos? It is hard to mine raw ore when your slaves are constantly murdered by demons you know. Even if we ignore all these societal aspects of asking how the feth mortals can give birth to a child and that child reaching adulthood, we still have answer question of why Chaos warriors do not murder each other during sometimes even centuries long down time?

I want to see Chaos as survival of the strongest. Of humans being unashamed of who they are. Of society which puts individual first over state (which is very opposite in our world where good = law, bad = disobeying law). Where Chaos merely promotes emotion from humans, wanting them to live their lives to the fullest, experiencing rage, excess, ambition and all other emotions where Imperium seeks to destroy those emotions in a bleak industrial machines where each person is just a meaningless cog of vast Imperium. Chaos to me promotes individuality, life, freedom, personal virtues where Imperium for me represents order. It is obedience, servitude, sacrifice for others, acceptance of one's faith. W40k and Chaos offers me escape from reality which starts to grind my gears of state becoming ever more intrusive in one's personal life. Where court and justice system is more keen in regulation one's behavior, traditions, views through punishment, jail and other penalties when they have no right to do that outside self declared rights. Where I see other people nodding like little drones and obeying government without a second thought. People are little sheep, if it is illegal, it is evil and bad. They seemingly become just slaves to government, to corporate world and raises false idols and Gods which look innocent at first glance, but in truth are incredibly intrusive into one's life. They can't think for themselves anymore. They can't stand up for themselves anymore. Hit a person and you are going to jail while that person can do whatever in psychological violence he inflicts upon you. I live in a nation which transforms itself into a western nation with its morals, culture and ideology. I lived during this transition period of Soviet culture which is far more barbaric and self reliant and it just pains me to see this transformation into what essentially I see as Imperium. If this world would be W40k, I would have my heretical cult and would work overthrowing Imperial officials on this planet. I believe in Gods, I played with occult during my life and I possess extremely developed inner world. I would be a rogue psyker who is quietly hidden in a small room, slowly working towards ending Imperial rule on this world by trying to summon divine help.

What you 'want' to see doesn't match up with what's written.

Ironically, it is Chaos who represents humanity's salvation. In lore it is remarked quite often that in Chaos humanity is stronger than in Order. This is because that instead average citizen being emotionless and powerless, Chaos promotes self-strength and development. This results in hardy populations which produces hardy warriors. Just look civilized vs uncivilized societies in our world. Constant war, competition and ambition is that makes Chaos stronger. Its unashamed nature and promotion of emotion and human feelings of all kind is that makes them unmatched. Human emotion is that tore galaxy apart and as side effect saved thousands of worlds from depravity of xenos. How now Tyranids will nom nom those planets if writers are not idiots? In a same manner, Chaos is invested into evolution of mankind and this psychic awakening was direct cause of our devotion to Chaos. It had made humanity so much greater and powerful than it would had been otherwise. Now with mere word we can summon legions of demons to help us and with a gesture of our hand we can send Carnifexes flying into a sky. This is the true pinnacle of human form and whatever you like it or not, Chaos had helped humanity to evolve to its next form as a race.


Personally, I want to view Chaos in complex and mature fashion. W40k often suffers from writers not knowing what they are doing and writing nonsensical Dragon Ball Z stuff.

I really hate to tell you this, but that first paragraph is pure DBZ stuff, not complex and mature.

Constant struggle doesn't result in hardy populations with hardy 'warriors.' It results in widespread misery and feeble and ineffective societies and people. The healthiest societies are civilized, organized and lean heavily on tech to be successful.

There is no 'we' throwing carnifexes around. There are a handful of powerful individuals on both sides capable of that, and devotion to chaos is not a deciding factor.

The last paragraph I'm just going to skip, because you're intermixing fantasy background and real world politics in a way that's fairly disturbing to see.

I didn't read the entire topic so I might just say something somebody already said but I have a soft spot for Abaddon as he enlight, in my opinion, what heretic astartes kinda mean for me in the W40K universe.
SM are soldiers, but they also have a perticular position in the 30K society : they are the incarnation of a higher genetical development of the human race in comparaison to normal human, they have a higher life span, and they feel like they share blood relations with other SM, their primarchs and the emperor. In addition, they also shed blood to expand the empire : they are effectively the aristocrats of the old regime society, a cast of people bound by blood, honor and custom that feel their higher level in the social hierarchy is justified by their activity, by the fact that they protect the entirety of the society.
The decisions of the emperor after the triumph at Ullanor are felt by many space marines, and by people like Horus, as a form betrayal, because de facto the Emperor wants this social hierarchy to crumble so that humanity, the people that SM feel are below them, take the total control of their lives. And this conflict, other the custom and the social hierarchy that the SM incarnate and the one that the Emperor envision is still present in 40K throughout a few short stories.

Eat the psykers, make better psykers and repeat. That's what Tyranids do. Why are you so insistent that all psykers are mega strong killers? Hundreds die from being shanked in alleys or set on fire by mobs. Powerful human psykers aren't the norm.

LMAO.

Ayuh, morality is subjective right up until you decide to pretend it becomes objective because reasons.

"All crimes should be treasured if they give you pleasure somehow" is not a statement that can be shown to be objectively false.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
LMAO.

Ayuh, morality is subjective right up until you decide to pretend it becomes objective because reasons.

"All crimes should be treasured if they give you pleasure somehow" is not a statement that can be shown to be objectively false.

Why is the burden of proof on us to prove the negative though?

Can that statement be shown to be objectively true? Are you making an argument from ignorance that since it cannot be proved as false, then it must be true?

'Cause you're the ones arguing that objective morality exists.

If you want to argue strict burdens, mine is discharged entirely by raising anything that reasonably disputes the claim. It is then your burden to overcome. Mine is only evidential, yours is 'legal'.

Meaning you must show it to objectively false. Which you cannot. And so your argument fails.

'Cause objective morality is a myth and Aquinas talks out of his arse.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
'Cause you're the ones arguing that objective morality exists.

If you want to argue strict burdens, mine is discharged entirely by raising anything that reasonably disputes the claim. It is then your burden to overcome. Mine is only evidential, yours is 'legal'.

Meaning you must show it to objectively false. Which you cannot. And so your argument fails.

'Cause objective morality is a myth and Aquinas talks out of his arse.

I never made any such argument about "objective morality" though, so I don't grasp just what you are accusing me of exactly.

Could anyone prove that anything objectively exists? As a pseudo-Kantian, I'd argue that no, we cannot, all we ever have are phenomena, not noumena. We have no way to even conceive of what the thing-in-itself is, or would be, let alone to discover it as a matter of facts.

Despite that, I think it is rather reductive to then say there is no morality at all, or that since we cannot have true "objectivity" in-itself, we have nothing but subjective whims all of which are equal to each other. Sure they are all subjective, but not all equal teleologically, to say the least.

Then I'm really not sure why you responded to me or why you're interjecting at this point.

No, we can't. We have only our own experiences, processed by an inherently unreliable machine.

Join me next week where I prove that freedom is neither desirable nor possible.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Then I'm really not sure why you responded to me or why you're interjecting at this point.

No, we can't. We have only our own experiences, processed by an inherently unreliable machine.

Join me next week where I prove that freedom is neither desirable nor possible.

I am just point out that while their claim of an objective truth cannot be proven, your claim of an objective falsity is also unprovable.

In other words, we are right back where we started, all we've done is canceled out the "objective" stance of each position. However, I don't really buy your notion that experience, or empiricism, is or, would be, "all we have." I'm willing to drop it though, since it seems doubtful you are interesting in a discussion, but rather just you explaining to me how and why I'm wrong in anything I'd say.

Yes, that's the point. Because objective morality doesn't exist.

You must necessarily approach it from your subjective moral POV.

I'm not trying to be snarky, apologies that it's coming across that way.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Yes, that's the point. Because objective morality doesn't exist.

You must necessarily approach it from your subjective moral POV.

I'm not trying to be snarky, apologies that it's coming across that way.

Well, there isn't any way to know, if I follow my understanding of the Kantian paradigm through. We can't say if objective morality exists, or doesn't. So, we can't really justify anything based off this, since it's not something knowable. Or, so it would seem to me.

So, all we can access is the subjective moral criteria and then we are going to need some manner to evaluate things from there. It just seems to be that having the buck stop at "morality is subjective, Q.E.D" really doesn't get us anywhere. We are just right where we started with nothing to show for it.

Then again, maybe I don't actually have a point. It seems to me there is an important distinction to be made, but perhaps I am wrong about that, or perhaps I don't have the ability to do so.

Well, I agree that it doesn't really get us anywhere if the objective is to hash out a philosophical treatise.

For a thread on a forum about toy soldiers, and for the topic this has evolved into, I rather think it suffices though. It is enough to say that subjective morality is all we have. Exploring the wider implications of that are probably beyond the scope of the thread.

I'm going to present historic Chaos warriors. These are pagan warriors raiding settlements. Song attracts me, because it symbolizes strength, freedom, simplicity. It promotes strong men who are unafraid to fight for their place on this Earth. If we consider that Gods would be real, there isn't much difference between barbaric warriors of the past and Chaos tribes except that miracles would happen a lot more often and their devotion would actually be rewarded. I do not know why others are not impressed. Few warriors going to face entire armies on their own. Forces of order being too feeble to overpower few chosen warriors of Chaos who manages to withhold an entire tide of enemy forces? You know that is the most beautiful thing in this? It is the end game. It is what you were trying to achieve your entire life. It is what you dreamed for. It is living your dream. The best thing of all of this is that you are going to attract gaze of your God and he is going to reward you for all eternity for your actions in live. You are going to literal promised heaven while all the civilized men who pretend to be o'so superior to you have their souls withered away and are very unlikely to receive same reward as they are atheistic scum. Ecclesiarchy is a huge factor, but not nearly all people are truly religious in Imperium nor God Emperor promises anything to them for their servitude in life. Well, besides of being eaten alive and you think Slaanesh was bad?



I see it genuinely beautiful and we have a lot of glorification of Chaos in our culture. These are two examples which easily can be considered as made for Khorne warriors. Such a simple life. You strive to become greatest warrior land ever had known. With your strength you vanquish your foes. Earn gold, slaves, women, power, whatever your heart desires. Most importantly, you go to Khorne's side when you die as for all mighty warriors who die faithful to Gods of old awaits eternal paradise in halls of Valhalla where you shall feast, sleep and fight for all eternity. See? Doesn't pagan faith seems just as thinly disguised Khorne worship? In fact warhammer as most western works draws heavy inspiration from Christianity. Christians perceive pagans as evil thus it is Chaos. Their belief system is practically ripped off and presented as more evil, spikey version in Warhammer. Don't be surprised, Bible is in similar way plagiarised.






Don't think either that it is just I who try to make Chaos presentable. In fact, it is VERY desirable and attractive. Our society used to dream about Chaos worship and it could again if someone would spark that faith again. Humanity is starved for Chaos. In current age where man are emasculated, stripped of their purpose and made subservient. We need something to look up as our masculine ideal. There is nothing more masculine or pure than warriors of Khorne. Here is a very popular image of such warrior:



Do you recognize the artwork? It is Conan the Barbarian. This picture sells an idea of man achieving his desires through becoming a great warrior. Through strength of arms, becoming strong enough to defend himself and ones he adores and vanquishing his foes. It is through these virtues man is considered successful and sexualized. It speaks to our primal nature. To protect women, to mate. It speaks to our bloodlust and joy of fighting. It is all who we are and it is all who we need to strive to become. See the subtle touches in this image. Look closely to a wall, do you see a skull? Here, heretical propaganda is subtly presented into our culture. It can mean just a painting, but more likely it is a warrior who had purged evil and it is Khorne's demons dancing between reality and unreality. Observing and judging soul of this great warrior. Few more images like this and Inquisitor will have to declare Exterminatus on planet Earth! Seriously though, Chaos is in fact very attractive. It is what GW and writers have no clue what it is or how to make it presentable. They write them as villains and bad guys instead of trying to comprehend Chaos as an idea. Rather than first trying to make people fall in love with it, they instead present most extreme depravities of it and when pretend that it is all just like that. Writers and GW make parody of their work and they do not know what they are doing with their IP in this regard and they need help.