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 Ernestas wrote:
Seriously though, Chaos is in fact very attractive. It is what GW and writers have no clue what it is or how to make it presentable. They write them as villains and bad guys instead of trying to comprehend Chaos as an idea. Rather than first trying to make people fall in love with it, they instead present most extreme depravities of it and when pretend that it is all just like that. Writers and GW make parody of their work and they do not know what they are doing with their IP in this regard and they need help.

'Chaos as presented is not attractive, but Chaos, if I imagine it as Conan and other things that it is not, is very attractive.'

Conan is the purity of the uncivilised man against the deceit and weakness of the civilised men. He has a strong sense of justice and morality- to him morality is not some unknowable subjective that allows man to commit atrocities as needed. Specifically Crom is a non interventionist god who inspires /values valour and courage, Khorne has no need for them- only bloodshed. Khorne gives you bladed tentacles and horns so you can murder more people.

The civilised men are the moral relativists who would, through their mental wrangling and self justifications accept Chaos. Indeed- Conan versus cultists worshipping a dark god or monstrous beast is such a ready mental image, I'm surprised you brought him up at all.
Khorne

Tzeentch

The evil maw/skull you drew attention to is in opposition to Conan, and represents the dragon mouthed tombs of evil, filled with chaos worshippers that he inevitably enters to kill the threat or rescue the woman.


Specifically, Conan in 40k would be/is a loyalist Space Marine, though from a chapter which values its independence from the Imperium and recognises the flawed nature of the Imperium. The chapter would wander, righting wrongs, butchering xenos armies and extinguishing cults of chaos.

Conan is the purity of the uncivilised man against the deceit and weakness of the civilised men.

Exactly, Chaos worshipper fighting against depravities of Order. It fits this narrative as a glove.

He has a strong sense of justice and morality- to him morality is not some unknowable subjective that allows man to commit atrocities as needed.

Again, this is precise philosophy of Khorne. This philosophy and view on life is often found among many pagan warriors. You can call it Odin, Khorne. These are mere details. That is more important that worshippers of corpse Emperor stands polar opposite of those values. Emperor did not had those morals. Imperium is not based on this morality. Sense of justice? Morality in Imperium?

Specifically Crom is a non interventionist god who inspires /values valour and courage

That is an exact description of Khorne. Khorne wants his worshippers to earn their strength and to fight their duels fair. He sees no honor in killing the weak or using trickery to win your battles. He despises cravens and ones who hide behind their pretensions. A bureaucrat who uses his paperwork to fight his own battles. A clergyman who uses his authority to abuse for personal gain, politician who tells you lies to get ahead. Psyker who is too feeble to win by himself. Khorne looks down on all of these people and respects ones who fight their own battles themselves. Courage and valour are warrior virtues and thus, they are Khorne's virtues which he expects of his followers.

Khorne has no need for them- only bloodshed. Khorne gives you bladed tentacles and horns so you can murder more people.

Uhm, no that is not it. I was talking for past several pages at how people tend to look Chaos in extremely simplistic terms to the point their own setting becomes a parody. Like I asked so many times before, how Chaos can wage war against galactic level empire if they keep murdering each other all the time? This is what I dislike about W40k lore, writers keep writing silly stuff failing to realize how great of a setting they have. They start believing nonsense they read and does not realize that history is written by the victors. So it is natural that Imperium vilifies Chaos and same is true vice versa. Imperium is vilified by Chaos. So does it mean that Imperium is all what Chaos says it is and there is nothing contrary to what statement, position?

The civilised men are the moral relativists who would, through their mental wrangling and self justifications accept Chaos.

This is why Conan is not a representative of Order. He serves Chaos, because to Chaos, morality is absolute. Only Imperial maggots can murder an entire world and call it good. Only they can enslave, torture and exploit while calling it good, greatness and civilization. This is what it means to be a civilized man. To commit a genocide and call it good. We do it in our world quite casually and nobody is bothered by it. This what it means to be a civilized moral relativist. Your comic doesn't prove anything, but it does prove what I was saying. A warrior vanquishing his foes by the virtue of his strength.

I wanted to share another song with everybody. This is about ancient pagan beliefs. Listen and see how disturbingly similar it is to what Khorne offers his followers. This is actually what men in the past fought for. They had believed that Gods are watching them and that their souls will be judged like that. This is same with Chaos, in death your soul will be judged and faithful will be accepted to their God's domain. Faithless scum will be tossed aside into the wastes as no God will claim their souls. These wandering souls will become Furies.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Fury

 Ernestas wrote:
Do you recognize the artwork? It is Conan the Barbarian. This picture sells an idea of man achieving his desires through becoming a great warrior. Through strength of arms, becoming strong enough to defend himself and ones he adores and vanquishing his foes. It is through these virtues man is considered successful and sexualized. It speaks to our primal nature. To protect women, to mate. It speaks to our bloodlust and joy of fighting. It is all who we are and it is all who we need to strive to become. See the subtle touches in this image. Look closely to a wall, do you see a skull? Here, heretical propaganda is subtly presented into our culture. It can mean just a painting, but more likely it is a warrior who had purged evil and it is Khorne's demons dancing between reality and unreality. Observing and judging soul of this great warrior. Few more images like this and Inquisitor will have to declare Exterminatus on planet Earth! Seriously though, Chaos is in fact very attractive. It is what GW and writers have no clue what it is or how to make it presentable. They write them as villains and bad guys instead of trying to comprehend Chaos as an idea. Rather than first trying to make people fall in love with it, they instead present most extreme depravities of it and when pretend that it is all just like that. Writers and GW make parody of their work and they do not know what they are doing with their IP in this regard and they need help.

That's not Khorne though. Khorne is the result of enjoying the killing too much. You start out on a path of killing for protecting/honor/survival (which might be moral and just within a context) but end up on a path of bloodlust, where killing is all you long for. 40K Chaos is often the perversion of something that might normally be "good". You start out killing to hunt, then you kill to protect your town, then there's an argument in your town and you solve it with killing. Then friends of those whom you killed come after you for vengeance, so you kill more people. Then someone kills your family for vengeance, and you go on a spree. Then the town gets its best warriors to go after you, and you meet them in battle and kill them, and it feels good. So now all you want to do is wander the land and find warriors to kill, because it's the only thing that gives you pleasure anymore. You become a mercenary to get work and kill some more. You use the resources you can to encourage more fighting so you can kill more. You try to start wars so you can keep killing.

Chaos is the twisting of a basic drive into a destabilizing force strong enough to pull civilizations apart and create, well . . .chaos.

Twaddle.

A major plot point in the universe is that even innocent acts performed with good intentions feed the Chaos Gods.

You do not have to glory in the shedding of blood to feed Khorne, merely shedding blood does so.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Twaddle.

A major plot point in the universe is that even innocent acts performed with good intentions feed the Chaos Gods.

You do not have to glory in the shedding of blood to feed Khorne, merely shedding blood does so.

Beside the point. The chaos gods themselves WANT you to do MORE of it. That's why they actively seek to corrupt.

 Ernestas wrote:

He has a strong sense of justice and morality- to him morality is not some unknowable subjective that allows man to commit atrocities as needed.

Again, this is precise philosophy of Khorne. This philosophy and view on life is often found among many pagan warriors. You can call it Odin, Khorne. These are mere details. That is more important that worshippers of corpse Emperor stands polar opposite of those values. Emperor did not had those morals. Imperium is not based on this morality. Sense of justice? Morality in Imperium?

Specifically Crom is a non interventionist god who inspires /values valour and courage

That is an exact description of Khorne. Khorne wants his worshippers to earn their strength and to fight their duels fair. He sees no honor in killing the weak or using trickery to win your battles. He despises cravens and ones who hide behind their pretensions. A bureaucrat who uses his paperwork to fight his own battles. A clergyman who uses his authority to abuse for personal gain, politician who tells you lies to get ahead. Psyker who is too feeble to win by himself. Khorne looks down on all of these people and respects ones who fight their own battles themselves. Courage and valour are warrior virtues and thus, they are Khorne's virtues which he expects of his followers.

Khorne has no need for them- only bloodshed. Khorne gives you bladed tentacles and horns so you can murder more people.

Uhm, no that is not it. I was talking for past several pages at how people tend to look Chaos in extremely simplistic terms to the point their own setting becomes a parody. Like I asked so many times before, how Chaos can wage war against galactic level empire if they keep murdering each other all the time? This is what I dislike about W40k lore, writers keep writing silly stuff failing to realize how great of a setting they have. They start believing nonsense they read and does not realize that history is written by the victors. So it is natural that Imperium vilifies Chaos and same is true vice versa. Imperium is vilified by Chaos. So does it mean that Imperium is all what Chaos says it is and there is nothing contrary to what statement, position?

So again, 'stop reading chaos as written and start imagining what I would like it to be.'
Blood Thirsters, Blood letters, Flesh hounds. Crom has none of these, but these are the daemonic footsoldiers of Khorne, who invade the material world and commit atrocities. They don't pop in for martial honour's sake or to satisfy the demands of justice.
Khorne Berzerkers, not Khorne Justicars.
Lord of Skulls, not Lord of Courage.

Again, Khorne in Hyboria is called the stag god and Conan is opposed to his cultists.

The civilised men are the moral relativists who would, through their mental wrangling and self justifications accept Chaos.

This is why Conan is not a representative of Order. He serves Chaos, because to Chaos, morality is absolute. Only Imperial maggots can murder an entire world and call it good. Only they can enslave, torture and exploit while calling it good, greatness and civilization. This is what it means to be a civilized man. To commit a genocide and call it good. We do it in our world quite casually and nobody is bothered by it. This what it means to be a civilized moral relativist. Your comic doesn't prove anything, but it does prove what I was saying. A warrior vanquishing his foes by the virtue of his strength.

The way I see the dichotomy of Chaos vs. Not-Chaos is this:

On the one hand, you can spend your entire life slaving away in ignorance, filth, and wretched conditions, being used and abused until you're nothing more than a useless husk to be discarded and forgotten. You will never know glory. You will never know power. You will never be anything more than a microscopic cog in an inconceivably vast machine, and you will die unknown and unimportant.

OR

You can worship Chaos and have all of the above probably be true - BUT - you have a tiny, tiny chance to be something incredible. Something monstrous and magnificent, something everyone else calls "evil." You may not be good, you may not be moral, but you'll be noticed. You'll matter. And to some people, that's more important than being "good," which is an inherently subjective societal construct anyway.

That's not Khorne though. Khorne is the result of enjoying the killing too much. You start out on a path of killing for protecting/honor/survival (which might be moral and just within a context) but end up on a path of bloodlust, where killing is all you long for. 40K Chaos is often the perversion of something that might normally be "good". You start out killing to hunt, then you kill to protect your town, then there's an argument in your town and you solve it with killing. Then friends of those whom you killed come after you for vengeance, so you kill more people. Then someone kills your family for vengeance, and you go on a spree. Then the town gets its best warriors to go after you, and you meet them in battle and kill them, and it feels good. So now all you want to do is wander the land and find warriors to kill, because it's the only thing that gives you pleasure anymore. You become a mercenary to get work and kill some more. You use the resources you can to encourage more fighting so you can kill more. You try to start wars so you can keep killing.

Chaos is the twisting of a basic drive into a destabilizing force strong enough to pull civilizations apart and create, well . . .chaos.

I disagree. Chaos is about promoting true nature of mankind which we keep oppressed. For example, this constant frustration and hatred towards your boss. You pretend to be civil and meek while in truth you want nothing, but to harm him. This is Chaos. It promotes our true nature whatever it might be. The state of affairs today is a direct result of the Emperor, because it had pushed humanity to being at its worst by trying to subjugate it to his will. His actions had started over 10 millenia of endless tyranny and oppression where men did evil things to each other which in turn promoted other men who were at receiving end to become worst than them in order to fight back. Before the Emperor Chaos wasn't like this. Chaos worlds weren't like this. Emperor could spend months on Chaos world and have no clue where he is at. Primarchs could spend years with their legions going over bureaucratic nonsense in trying to make planet compliant and non would be all the wiser until whole planet declare total war on Imperial forces and tries to blow up their fleet and primarch.

Chaos which you had described is nonsense. Otherwise, how Chaos would not consume itself? Everyone would just butcher everyone before they could raise first Black Crusade against Imperium. It is same thing with Dark eldar. How Commorah can exist without those elves torturing and murdering on a spot? Reading w40k literature and listening to audio books gives great insight into inner working of those ''evil'' forces.

Your comic, showing a khornate daemon/cult fighting Conan doesn't prove anything. Conan is a dyed in the wool khorne cultist, honest.'
Conan is an advocate of the natural order, to which chaos is perversion.
The death of words for the Imperium is always portrayed as necessary evil in the face of supernatural corruption (chaos)
Murdering a world for Khorne gets you employee of the month.

Those demons are merely representation of Khorne's rage. They are also demonic combat forms optimized for murder and slaughter. They are tools to be used for war, nothing more.

As for Chaos itself, Chaos is the natural state of being for humanity. It is its base emotions and instincts promoted over what we call civilization. Modern world is anything, but unnatural. Weak men lording over you due to being in different social class. Man being grinded away in massive state complex. Your labors are being taken away by government and its taxation. You have no personal rights. Your children can be taken away. You can be dragged into a war. You can be forced to leave your house. You can't own land. Entire life you are forced to procrastinate before fools. First it is dancing around your teachers and professors, pretending to care over their nonsense which you know will not help you in a least in real world. Then procrastinating yourself to your boss and his nonsense. All the while being marked and tracked all your life by Google and being owned by oligarchs via massive debts. What we have today and by extension in W40k is not natural state of being for humanity. In the end, I think it is rich when you complain about Chaos murdering an entire planet of their enemies. Why are you so keen to forget that Imperium is all too eager to murder an entire planet of their citizens just because there is few heretics on a planet?

How does it make feel? If this would be W40k and I would be a rogue psyker with heretical cult and Inquisition would know for certain that I exist and what danger I'm, but would not have any leads, how do you feel about being murdered because of me? Imagine modern Earth being slaughtered by your very Imperium you serve just because a dude which you never heard about just lives in some god forsaken corner of your world. When you put this into perspective, why does Chaos is so much worse than Imperium?

Oh come on, people aren't naturally brutes who only want to beat up other brutes. There is such a thing as empathy. Being nice to other people feels nice. Several religions have been founded on that idea. The entire concept of democracy is to avoid having a few people bossing around the rest of the people. The fact that it doesn't work as well as it should doesn't change the fact that people saw what you call the "natural state" of humanity and decided it sucked for 99% of the population and seriously needed changing.

If chaos was running the galaxy, it wouldn't be a better place. The weak would be slaves just as much as in the Imperium, they only would have a different master.

I do not say that Chaos is better than Imperium. I say why someone could sympathize with it. Strong rising to rule over weak is natural order of things. I personally despise weak people in life. I personally despise how modern world sees you as a worker in its own industry. I personally despise an idea of order where good = obeying law. I despise that we are made into nothing more than cogs who can't have their own agency, desires, ambitions. Where society judges you and decides what you can or cannot be. I despise arbitrary rules and baby sitting which modern state has. For me, more brutal world where my personal virtues would matter over nonsensical meritocracy of today or one of Imperium's is a lot more attractive. This is why to me an idea of Chaos is actually attractive. It is an escape from modern society and its ever increasing hold over individual. It is being unashamed for what you are. It is about promoting your own individuality over submission to what our worlds tells you need to be.

Even if life isn't much better serving either way, I don't think there is any essential difference to say that Imperium is better than Chaos. You will be toiling as insignificant cog for all your life to uncaring Imperium and be discarded the moment you become useless. It is long grind of your body and soul. In Chaos you are put into to toil as a slave for all your life. Is there truly a difference? In Imperium, you can join guard and be bullied by drill sergants and commissars, receive gakky food, not enough rest and be sent to die under orders of some incompetent commander for nothing. As a slave you can start some gak with rest of your more rowdy slaves and for successful rebellion be recruited into ranks of Chaos soldiers, militia, overseers. If you are worker in Imperium, you might as well decide to start some gak and become heretic. Chaos rewards deeds like betrayal and you most likely have a place in new world order afterwards. Death to me seems like poultry thing when you consider that an alternative is long life gruelling servitude to uncaring Imperium which aligns itself with creatures like Adeptus Mechanicus who desecrate human's holy form, mind and soul to such abominable forms that even Chaos spawns seems not so ugly anymore.

 Tiennos wrote:
Oh come on, people aren't naturally brutes who only want to beat up other brutes. There is such a thing as empathy. Being nice to other people feels nice. Several religions have been founded on that idea. The entire concept of democracy is to avoid having a few people bossing around the rest of the people. The fact that it doesn't work as well as it should doesn't change the fact that people saw what you call the "natural state" of humanity and decided it sucked for 99% of the population and seriously needed changing.

If chaos was running the galaxy, it wouldn't be a better place. The weak would be slaves just as much as in the Imperium, they only would have a different master.

This is the basis for almost all theology and philosophy. The question of whether we, at our core, trend towards brutality, selfishness, and cruelty, or towards order, empathy, and cooperation. There's tons of arguments for either side. Personal experiences can provide more than enough evidence to see the issue one way or the other, which cuts to the core of why people might choose to willingly serve Chaos.

 Ernestas wrote:
I do not say that Chaos is better than Imperium. I say why someone could sympathize with it. Strong rising to rule over weak is natural order of things. I personally despise weak people in life. I personally despise how modern world sees you as a worker in its own industry. I personally despise an idea of order where good = obeying law. I despise that we are made into nothing more than cogs who can't have their own agency, desires, ambitions. Where society judges you and decides what you can or cannot be. I despise arbitrary rules and baby sitting which modern state has. For me, more brutal world where my personal virtues would matter over nonsensical meritocracy of today or one of Imperium's is a lot more attractive. This is why to me an idea of Chaos is actually attractive. It is an escape from modern society and its ever increasing hold over individual. It is being unashamed for what you are. It is about promoting your own individuality over submission to what our worlds tells you need to be.

Even if life isn't much better serving either way, I don't think there is any essential difference to say that Imperium is better than Chaos. You will be toiling as insignificant cog for all your life to uncaring Imperium and be discarded the moment you become useless. It is long grind of your body and soul. In Chaos you are put into to toil as a slave for all your life. Is there truly a difference? In Imperium, you can join guard and be bullied by drill sergants and commissars, receive gakky food, not enough rest and be sent to die under orders of some incompetent commander for nothing. As a slave you can start some gak with rest of your more rowdy slaves and for successful rebellion be recruited into ranks of Chaos soldiers, militia, overseers. If you are worker in Imperium, you might as well decide to start some gak and become heretic. Chaos rewards deeds like betrayal and you most likely have a place in new world order afterwards. Death to me seems like poultry thing when you consider that an alternative is long life gruelling servitude to uncaring Imperium which aligns itself with creatures like Adeptus Mechanicus who desecrate human's holy form, mind and soul to such abominable forms that even Chaos spawns seems not so ugly anymore.

Well yeah, the Imperium isn't great either. Or any other faction, for that matter. That's the whole concept of 40k: to show what happens when you remove everything except violence. Many works of fiction glorify fighting, violence and war. 40k takes it to the extreme: there is only war and hate in this universe. And the conclusion is that life is worthless and everyone is miserable until they die horribly.

I get why you like chaos better than the Imperium, but I think you're fooling yourself if you think chaos is about honor and individuality. Worshipping Khorne means becoming more and more addicted to violence until fighting is the only thing that matters to you. Worshipping Slaanesh means slowly growing numb to pleasure and looking for more and more depraved things to try so you can find something new and exciting. It's the same idea with the other gods.

The point is: chaos may be about individuality in the beginning, but if you want power you have to get the gods to notice you and they dont want you to do things half-way. Nurgle doesn't care if you make someone catch a cold. You have to spread a plague to your city, then your planet, then the whole sector if you really want to please him. If you stop and say "that's enough chaos for me", you won't get anything. In the end, if you want to make it big you have to be a loyal servant to your god, not be your own person.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Tiennos wrote:
Oh come on, people aren't naturally brutes who only want to beat up other brutes. There is such a thing as empathy. Being nice to other people feels nice. Several religions have been founded on that idea. The entire concept of democracy is to avoid having a few people bossing around the rest of the people. The fact that it doesn't work as well as it should doesn't change the fact that people saw what you call the "natural state" of humanity and decided it sucked for 99% of the population and seriously needed changing.

If chaos was running the galaxy, it wouldn't be a better place. The weak would be slaves just as much as in the Imperium, they only would have a different master.

This is the basis for almost all theology and philosophy. The question of whether we, at our core, trend towards brutality, selfishness, and cruelty, or towards order, empathy, and cooperation. There's tons of arguments for either side. Personal experiences can provide more than enough evidence to see the issue one way or the other, which cuts to the core of why people might choose to willingly serve Chaos.

Considering that the world is neither a violent mess where people screw each other all the time or a peaceful utopia where everyone helps his neighbor, I doubt there's an inherent human nature at all. Although that point depends a lot on religious views, so it's nearly impossible to get a definitive answer.

 Ernestas wrote:

That's not Khorne though. Khorne is the result of enjoying the killing too much. You start out on a path of killing for protecting/honor/survival (which might be moral and just within a context) but end up on a path of bloodlust, where killing is all you long for. 40K Chaos is often the perversion of something that might normally be "good". You start out killing to hunt, then you kill to protect your town, then there's an argument in your town and you solve it with killing. Then friends of those whom you killed come after you for vengeance, so you kill more people. Then someone kills your family for vengeance, and you go on a spree. Then the town gets its best warriors to go after you, and you meet them in battle and kill them, and it feels good. So now all you want to do is wander the land and find warriors to kill, because it's the only thing that gives you pleasure anymore. You become a mercenary to get work and kill some more. You use the resources you can to encourage more fighting so you can kill more. You try to start wars so you can keep killing.

Chaos is the twisting of a basic drive into a destabilizing force strong enough to pull civilizations apart and create, well . . .chaos.

I disagree. Chaos is about promoting true nature of mankind which we keep oppressed.

Says the demon who whispers honeyed words into your ear, but is only looking to devour your soul. Is being turned into Chaos Spawn the result of the "true nature of mankind"?

Chaos is about appealing to our darker nature, yes. But not because it's the only thing available to us. They do it for their own amusement and power.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:

That's not Khorne though. Khorne is the result of enjoying the killing too much. You start out on a path of killing for protecting/honor/survival (which might be moral and just within a context) but end up on a path of bloodlust, where killing is all you long for. 40K Chaos is often the perversion of something that might normally be "good". You start out killing to hunt, then you kill to protect your town, then there's an argument in your town and you solve it with killing. Then friends of those whom you killed come after you for vengeance, so you kill more people. Then someone kills your family for vengeance, and you go on a spree. Then the town gets its best warriors to go after you, and you meet them in battle and kill them, and it feels good. So now all you want to do is wander the land and find warriors to kill, because it's the only thing that gives you pleasure anymore. You become a mercenary to get work and kill some more. You use the resources you can to encourage more fighting so you can kill more. You try to start wars so you can keep killing.

Chaos is the twisting of a basic drive into a destabilizing force strong enough to pull civilizations apart and create, well . . .chaos.

I disagree. Chaos is about promoting true nature of mankind which we keep oppressed.

Says the demon who whispers honeyed words into your ear, but is only looking to devour your soul. Is being turned into Chaos Spawn the result of the "true nature of mankind"?

Chaos is about appealing to our darker nature, yes. But not because it's the only thing available to us. They do it for their own amusement and power.

We need to compare then what happens to most prominent actors in W40k who embraces Chaos. Fabius Bile is your classical mad scientist type who rejects all forms of Chaos and its divinity. It wants nothing to do with Chaos and follows its own agenda outside of demons, spikiness and other such Chaotic nonsense. I do not say that what he is doing is good in any way, I'm saying that Fabius Bile is notoriously atheistic and independent. Chaos had enabled him to embrace his genius and gain personal strength to put that genius into practice. Now another example, Abbadon the despoiler. Despite all nonsense around him, there is one thing that nobody seems to disagree on. Abbadon retains his own independence and manages to "rule Chaos Imperium". Gods view him adoringly, because it is cute to see mortal to fight so strongly to his own soul which makes him all the more tasty. He is one of those rare cases where Gods would make him demon prince on a spot if he want to. Now look at Kharn. He is devout follower of Khorne yet in every audio drama he is portrayed as cunning, smart, calculated individual. He might slaughter his own friends, but this is only because they are not spiritually pure enough to stand by his side. I do not get that vibe of mindless killer when reading about him. While path of beserker is most common and easiest to follow, it isn't the only way to Khorne. It is sad that new lore was so dumbed down. Remember times when Khorne was about honor? When Khorne warrior would not kill ones weaker than himself, because such foes were beneath him? That a mighty Khorne warrior killing foes who can't even defend itself would earn no favor in eyes of Khorne and if anything would incur his displeasure? Those were Chaos Knights and Chaos Gods before were a lot more complex. Now Tzeentch is all about saying "just as planned" when he loses badly or plot is so convoluted and poorly written. Slaanesh became nothing more than sex and drugs. Where is love? Isn't loving your sister, borther, mother and family one of the strongest emotions available to man? Where are these stories about man wanting to protect his family and out of love to them seeks favor of Slaanesh to ensure that? What about Nurgle? Isn't he a God of life, nature, rebirth? Now he is just about rot and decay. He is one dimensional, smelly bastard. Yet in truth, he has a lot in common with pagan god like Cernunnos who are about vitality, nature, primal nature, cycles of nature, rebirth, reincarnation, etc.

I get why you like chaos better than the Imperium, but I think you're fooling yourself if you think chaos is about honor and individuality. Worshipping Khorne means becoming more and more addicted to violence until fighting is the only thing that matters to you. Worshipping Slaanesh means slowly growing numb to pleasure and looking for more and more depraved things to try so you can find something new and exciting. It's the same idea with the other gods.

The point is: chaos may be about individuality in the beginning, but if you want power you have to get the gods to notice you and they dont want you to do things half-way. Nurgle doesn't care if you make someone catch a cold. You have to spread a plague to your city, then your planet, then the whole sector if you really want to please him. If you stop and say "that's enough chaos for me", you won't get anything. In the end, if you want to make it big you have to be a loyal servant to your god, not be your own person.

I view Chaos less about honor, but more about independence, doing what you want to do. There are individuals in W40k who does not have much to do with Chaos Gods at all. Though, I do not see much of a problem of getting addicted to worship. For example, did you ever were at Church? I mean, somewhere where people really believed and worshipped Jesus? They are addicts to it, they are slaves to it. I was shocked and disgusted by them and I do not see this addiction to Khorne any different. Instead, I perceive it as a good thing. As making myself purer, as a warrior of old, of myths. Imagine life without doubt or fear. Imagine for example some scary movie like Aliens. There is a nest in your town. What Imperial citizens do? Nothing, but feed them. Like vermin they crawl, hide and cry trying to survive while they await their salvation from authorities. What would happen if Alien nest would appear in Chaos world? Lets say I would be a worshipper of Khorne and I would simply explode with rage that my master tolerates these pathetic xenos to exist. I would go and demand to purge them. If he would disagree, I would challenge and murder him. Then I would take his slaves, arm them and send those sorry bastards to nearest Alien nest. When we would meet with the enemy, I would force my worthless slaves to stay and fight with frienzone dosage and thus a glorious melee would begin. Instead of being food to them, instead of covering in the corner we would fight and die like men with dignity and if I succeed and prove myself as a proper man for vanquishing this alien vermin, Khorne is likely to reward me with some blessing for spilling blood in his name.

You see, this is why I do not see Chaos and Dark Gods as solely negative influence. Khorne might increase my rage, but it is my choice how much I want to worship him. I could choose to worship Chaos Undivided or I could be faithless and use Chaos solely for my own gains. With Chaos there isn't any inherent rules like mutations. Remember Iron Warriors? They do not mutate, they see it as great weakness and go to great lengths to avoid that. Like many legions and individuals, they see demons like tools and look down on uncontrolled mutations who twist sacred human body. Good example are Night Lords. With Chaos there aren't any constants, by its very nature Chaos is malleable, ever changing. One civilization in dark angels novel had struck a pact with them to protect them during old night and there wasn't any indication that this world worships Chaos. It was highly ordered and quite advanced human civilization. Other might be ruled by rogue psykers and everyone else are slaves to be abused. Third might be demon world of Nurgle. Fourth, etc... Chaos influence is what we allow it to be. It will change a man and depending on his will, it will benefit or curse him.

As for Chaos being directly related to power, I do not get this vibe in W40k lore. There are Iron Warriors who couldn't be less religious. There are Night Lords who shun away Chaos blessings if they are too obvious and use demons nothing more as weapons of war. There are then Word Bearers who fully relies on their Gods to grant them power. We have someone like Typhus forever being fully dedicated in worship of Nurgle while on other end we have Fabius Bile and Abbadon who never traded their own souls for power and are still one of most powerful individuals in Chaos ruled world. I think that getting power and worshipping Gods in W40k looks like our world. Technically we all are Christians, but few of us worship God and follows what Church asks of us. I do believe and in Chaos, not everybody does that, because it is hard. You have to actively dedicate your time, mind and emotions to do something. This takes pleasure from yourself. Then you need to have discipline to learn how to worship, how to summon demons, etc. This is another complication on top of it and this power is not absolute. You need to work for it. I would say it is similar thing to why are you not a programmer? Enroll to online courses, get your online certification, find programming job and earn a lot of money. You don't do that or something similar, because it is a lot of hard work. I think that Chaos worship is like that, it is another thing which you have to do on top of getting your degree (lets say in learning how to fight, command armies or how tech works).

Addiction isn't a problem if you're fine with being an addict, I guess... But seriously, when an addict tell themselves "I can stop anytime I want," they're delusional.

If you want independence and a true meritocratic society, the dark eldar are probably the best example. Anyone can move up the ranks, all they have to do is challenge and kill their boss. Vect himself started out as a slave.

The consequence is that you can't count on anyone but yourself in Commorragh. You don't have allies, you have people who will work with you if it's in their interest. Anyone will put a knife in your back if it benefits them and no one will help you if you can't help them. But as long as you're strong, smart and ruthless, you can rule the place and live forever. And you even get to keep your soul!

Well most of it. And there's the constant ever increasing thirst for the suffering of others that leaves a void in your very soul. But definitely meritocratic.

Dark eldar simply do not click with me. They lack that spiritual aspect, devotion, worship of Gods which I find attractive in Chaos, because I'm quite spiritual person myself and a pagan on top of it. So, this is why whole this Chaos worship narrative attracts me, because like I had shown you before, Pagan Gods have a lot of similarities with W40k or rather the other way around. As for meritocratic society, I see Chaos being similarly meritocratic like Dark Eldar, but being more human, psychic and less backstabbing, lonely bastards (remember, Khorne will backstab you in your face instead!). I see Chaos as tribal where my tribe is above everyone else mentality where Dark Eldar for me strikes for meritocratic, atheistic, individualistic person.

I will add video relevant to these discussions if anyone is interested in watching it. It talks exactly about what we were talking here for last few pages.

 Ernestas wrote:
Dark eldar simply do not click with me. They lack that spiritual aspect, devotion, worship of Gods which I find attractive in Chaos, because I'm quite spiritual person myself and a pagan on top of it. So, this is why whole this Chaos worship narrative attracts me, because like I had shown you before, Pagan Gods have a lot of similarities with W40k or rather the other way around. As for meritocratic society, I see Chaos being similarly meritocratic like Dark Eldar, but being more human, psychic and less backstabbing, lonely bastards (remember, Khorne will backstab you in your face instead!). I see Chaos as tribal where my tribe is above everyone else mentality where Dark Eldar for me strikes for meritocratic, atheistic, individualistic person.

I will add video relevant to these discussions if anyone is interested in watching it. It talks exactly about what we were talking here for last few pages.

quite literally could add Godless, due to them beeing eaten.

Two and most of a third are still around.