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 kodos wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Sometimes I wonder if GW's problem is that they're Brits trying to write rules for Americans

it is GW writing rules for people who have designed the game
They know what they want from the rule and therefore write it in a way that they understand what it mean and give it a cool name for marketing

the whole thing of "read as written" VS "read as intended" as GW-style of game design thing that does not happen outside that bubble (no matter if a Brit, American, German or Russian writes the rules)

Most of it is as you say writing it and checking it by people who already know what it's supposed to do (aka waste of time), them really still not getting how you dismantle rules for your own advantage.

But Americans to tend to complain more about rules, but we are talking about the country that is why we now have warning labels on nut packets saying they contain nuts, microwaves are not for drying pets or children and the cruise control won't steer the vehical.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My fav TLOS conundrum was when my friend could see my tank, but the part he was in range of was out of LOS, and he was out of range of the part that was in LOS.

We weren't sure whether he could shoot the tank or not.
.

This might be resolved with some sort of intervening terrain mechanic as with armor pen substracted from original weapon strngth or some other way, perhaps with a modifier for being obscured. Anywyas, it will be up to the players to decide how to apply the rules when they are offered as a resource.

The most redeeming aspect of wargames like these imho is that is helps young people learn how to regulate their own actions through discourse over text, requiring the interpretation of said text and application of common sense realism in the interpretation. It is this meta-level view on rules and how we arrive at them, through reasoned discourse, and thereafter choose to adhere to them, or perhaps to lobby for their revision - this is the view that is so important, in my opinion.

Games like 40K are a rare opportunity to be able to practice and to develop these skills, and these are skills that this world needs, very much, right now.

 ValentineGames wrote:

But its not like GW hasn't in the past time and time again said their rules are a guide and not set in stone.
Even now you'll still see it pop up where they'll say change things, experiment, add, take etc.
But due to a very loud brash set of people these encouragements to be more flexible are shot down faster than a day trip past the grassy knoll.

Problem is that GW wants much more money for their guidelines were the major work need to be done by the players than Warlord.

And the main argument for 40k is that it is played everywhere and you can easily find a game without needing to introduce others first.
Now if the rules are just guidelines and people adjust the game to their liking, pick up games are not as easy any more because you have to find someone who uses the same house rules and/or talk them into using yours.

in countries were the scene is run by clubs and those have their local rules and adjustmants, it works differently were everything is done by stores

Yes, but with the caveat of whether there really is necrons in the box set. If not than most likely not.

 kodos wrote:
Now if the rules are just guidelines and people adjust the game to their liking, pick up games are not as easy any more because you have to find someone who uses the same house rules and/or talk them into using yours.

This seems to always be a very common yet completely unproven excuse.
Though that may be because pick up games are a complete work of fiction. I highly doubt a worthwhile number of people to make a basis on walk into any random GW or game store with their figures for a "pick up game".
The mass majority will of probably gone into a store, looked around and chatted, and organised a game from that point.
That game would likely be a "standard" game and if the player goes regularly would pick up on the store or clubs house rulings as time goes by.

While I'm sure there are TINY numbers of people who carry their miniatures around quite literally everywhere they go just in case. They are worthless in terms of drawing any data from.

Pick up games do not exist. There is always some form of pre planning ahead of time.
Especially now with Internet being so much more common than back in the day.

I have quite literally done the "pickup game" myself many times. I have played games with many people who came into the store randomly just looking for a game because they're in town that day. Lots of people show up on a day they know other players will be there because the store website said Wednesdays were 40k night and look for a game without any sort of pre-arrangement. In my experience, that's not at all unheard of.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I have quite literally done the "pickup game" myself many times. I have played games with many people who came into the store randomly just looking for a game because they're in town that day. Lots of people show up on a day they know other players will be there because the store website said Wednesdays were 40k night and look for a game without any sort of pre-arrangement. In my experience, that's not at all unheard of.

Seconding. I play at a GW, and I usually just show up and hope to get a game.

There's some pre-game talk, usually just "2,000 points good? Cool, what army you fielding?" but not any massive pre-arrangements.

 ValentineGames wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Now if the rules are just guidelines and people adjust the game to their liking, pick up games are not as easy any more because you have to find someone who uses the same house rules and/or talk them into using yours.

This seems to always be a very common yet completely unproven excuse.
Though that may be because pick up games are a complete work of fiction. I highly doubt a worthwhile number of people to make a basis on walk into any random GW or game store with their figures for a "pick up game".
The mass majority will of probably gone into a store, looked around and chatted, and organised a game from that point.
That game would likely be a "standard" game and if the player goes regularly would pick up on the store or clubs house rulings as time goes by.

While I'm sure there are TINY numbers of people who carry their miniatures around quite literally everywhere they go just in case. They are worthless in terms of drawing any data from.

Pick up games do not exist. There is always some form of pre planning ahead of time.
Especially now with Internet being so much more common than back in the day.

Maybe that's true across the pond, but I have been on both sides of the pickup games before.

It’s a very silly assertion to say that a type of game that exists, people play, and that even has its own name “does not exist”.

 ValentineGames wrote:

Pick up games do not exist. There is always some form of pre planning ahead of time.
Especially now with Internet being so much more common than back in the day.

I guess than that all of my none Tournament games of any GW game have never been played than
you just go to the store or club with your minis because for 99% chance there will be someone else doing the same and you can play

with the Internet much more common, it is now much easier to get other non-GW games done but for those that everyone playes, you just show up and play

 kodos wrote:
but for those that everyone playes, you just show up and play

I MASSIVELY doubt this.
You turn up at a store with box of toy soldiers and nobody is there... You ain't playing anything.
And empty stores is very common. It's a rare store to find with more than 1 person inside.

Are you saying we’re liars?

 ValentineGames wrote:

 kodos wrote:
but for those that everyone playes, you just show up and play

I MASSIVELY doubt this.
You turn up at a store with box of toy soldiers and nobody is there... You ain't playing anything.
And empty stores is very common. It's a rare store to find with more than 1 person inside.

than I guess your store has a problem

every store with place to play and no one inside using it is wasting its space and money
so either it will change this into storage/shelf space or close/move to a smaller room

 ValentineGames wrote:

 kodos wrote:
but for those that everyone playes, you just show up and play

I MASSIVELY doubt this.
You turn up at a store with box of toy soldiers and nobody is there... You ain't playing anything.
And empty stores is very common. It's a rare store to find with more than 1 person inside.

In all of the four GW stores that have been in my area (one closed down four years ago), plus in the two in the city I went to college at, the most common problem was getting an empty table, not the lack of players there.
In a FLGS, it's a bit more difficult to get games in, but they have gaming nights where you are also sure to find opponents. Usually those game nights have set points levels to ensure you find someone to play.

The main reason why I stopped playing this kind of games was a lack of a properly defined format and ruleset where you knew what to expect from a game, like you did in MtG. MtG is a game you are much more likely to enjoy when playing against a random, unknown person than WH40k.

 kodos wrote:

 ValentineGames wrote:

 kodos wrote:
but for those that everyone playes, you just show up and play

I MASSIVELY doubt this.
You turn up at a store with box of toy soldiers and nobody is there... You ain't playing anything.
And empty stores is very common. It's a rare store to find with more than 1 person inside.

than I guess your store has a problem

every store with place to play and no one inside using it is wasting its space and money
so either it will change this into storage/shelf space or close/move to a smaller room

Stores*

But if it was a problem they'd not exist.
That's my point on prearranged games.
In 26 years I don't think I've ever seen a situation where you'd just walk in and expect an opponent to magically appear to play any game. Not just 40k.
It doesn't happen.

And this isn't including GW stores obviously as they have no tables for even demo games anymore. Unless it's a 4x2.

 Jidmah wrote:
In all of the four GW stores that have been in my area (one closed down four years ago), plus in the two in the city I went to college at, the most common problem was getting an empty table, not the lack of players there.

I would be genuinely surprised to find a GW store you have space to game in these days.
And I am being very serious.
1 only ever see a 4x4 table divided in half for Age and 40k demos and space usually for 4 people to paint.
Occasionally an extra 4x4 which you can't use because there is no terrain or not enough staff to allow gaming.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 ValentineGames wrote:
TLOS is easy when you apply common sen-... Oh yeah... 40k players...

Sometimes I wonder if GW's problem is that they're Brits trying to write rules for Americans (or that the players' problem is that they're Americans trying to play rules written by Brits). It feels to me like people writing British wargame rules are assuming some kind of hive-mind level agreement and understanding among the playerbase about what everything's supposed to mean and how it's supposed to work regardless of what it actually says, while people writing American wargame rules spend more time chasing and plugging loopholes.

Insightful and interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's a bit different to that, but your core concept isn't wrong.

It's less about UK vs US, and more about GW vs literally everyone else. They don't play the same game as everyone does. Their scattered approach to writing rules has always demonstrated that. There doesn't seem to be a grasp of how their rules interact with one another, which is why they always appear to write Codices (and sometimes units within Codices) in a vaccum. Any time you've gone "But didn't they realise..." or "How did they not see..." it's because of this phenomena.

I suppose that my experience is limited, but I liked the loophole seeking opportunism vs a collective effort mentality as being the key observation, though I might have missed the point there.

maybe part of the problem is keeping everyone on the same page. GW has grown, fast, become corporatized, publically traded. A desired stock. Imagine how many Matt Wards must work at GW now. That might help to explain some of the variance.

ValentineGames wrote:

 kodos wrote:
but for those that everyone playes, you just show up and play

I MASSIVELY doubt this.
You turn up at a store with box of toy soldiers and nobody is there... You ain't playing anything.
And empty stores is very common. It's a rare store to find with more than 1 person inside.

Well, empty stores are common right now. The LGS in my metropolis won't allow more than 5 people in the store and the gaming tables are closed for use.

A year ago. If I showed up with 40K miniatures or X-Wing miniatures, I could get a game unless the store just opened. My only problem is I have neither, and the models I do have require pre-arranged times to get a game in. There are about 4-6 regulars for WMH at my LGS, and I have to cross town for Battletech. Don't even get me started on Dropzone or Firestorm.

The nearest GW to me only has two tables, but had about 5-6 people come through right after it opened. The only reason I dropped in was to get some paint and it is easier to reach than my LGS that has over a dozen tables.

Valentine, your experience is not universal. You do not speak for everyone.

 ValentineGames wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 ValentineGames wrote:

 kodos wrote:
but for those that everyone playes, you just show up and play

I MASSIVELY doubt this.
You turn up at a store with box of toy soldiers and nobody is there... You ain't playing anything.
And empty stores is very common. It's a rare store to find with more than 1 person inside.

than I guess your store has a problem

every store with place to play and no one inside using it is wasting its space and money
so either it will change this into storage/shelf space or close/move to a smaller room

Stores*

But if it was a problem they'd not exist.
That's my point on prearranged games.
In 26 years I don't think I've ever seen a situation where you'd just walk in and expect an opponent to magically appear to play any game. Not just 40k.
It doesn't happen.

And this isn't including GW stores obviously as they have no tables for even demo games anymore. Unless it's a 4x2.

 Jidmah wrote:
In all of the four GW stores that have been in my area (one closed down four years ago), plus in the two in the city I went to college at, the most common problem was getting an empty table, not the lack of players there.

I would be genuinely surprised to find a GW store you have space to game in these days.
And I am being very serious.
1 only ever see a 4x4 table divided in half for Age and 40k demos and space usually for 4 people to paint.
Occasionally an extra 4x4 which you can't use because there is no terrain or not enough staff to allow gaming.

Again, just because that may be the way things have worked for you, does not mean that experience applies to everyone, much less to people in different countries. Like several people have chimed in here, it is not at all uncommon for pick up games to happen, at least in the US.

Hey all, I think we've gotten a bit distracted over this topic, myself included, lets try and get it back on the discussion of picking up the new edition, thanks!

The GW store in Enschede has two tables, well... pre Covid.
Tournaments.
The whole sha-bang!

I have been in both sorts of situations.
I was in a store in Seoul, and was told to come back at a special time on a special day and maybe someone might be open but typically people met after pre-arranging.
I have been at other shops (admittedly, 30 years ago) where we would hang out, read comics, paint and wait until someone came in or...
The most common situation, however, has been the game club night at the shop, in which case games were either arranged or we knew that other players would be there.

So... my experience leans towards the need for an arrangment.

Plus, there are the necessary house rules, the restrictions (no superheavies, no named characters being big ones) and for me I would rather play smaller games better than bigger games faster. All of this requires coordination beforehand to be successful...

That said, Valentine spoke a bit over forcefully there, maybe...

The new edition SHOULD (and I am opimistic about this) allow a variety of ways to play at different levels of detail all fromt he same rule book (optimistically!).
So, one might more easily be able to go to a (post-Covid?) gameshop and get a pick up game with clear rules iof the sort that one enjoys and has time for and so on...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. Good will and clear intentions.

How much extra damage does a Bolter do when it gets a headshot? That's a simple question that can easily come up anytime you've got short walls.

If you can read I don't know why it'd be a question. Look at the stat line of a bolter. It tells you how much damage it does.

ccs wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. Good will and clear intentions.

How much extra damage does a Bolter do when it gets a headshot? That's a simple question that can easily come up anytime you've got short walls.

If you can read I don't know why it'd be a question. Look at the stat line of a bolter. It tells you how much damage it does.

Yes, and the JANProductions has a point if s/he is genuinely interested in headshots being a thing.
Sure, make helmets more valuable! Guardsmen may get a save for a headshot, helmets might cost an extra point ... why not?

40K now doesn't allow for this level of detail, but why not?
I like the idea of an 8x4 table with 750 or 1000 points played at sub-Necromunda levels of detail.
If the new edition affords this type of play, and/or if GW produces a module that does and that plugs into the 40k MRB, then I would be pretty happy about that.

Hell no!

GW is probably the worst gaming company out there, so giving them money is really the last thing I want to do. I heavily invested in 8th, which was a huge mistake as most my models now are useless plastic thanks to rules changes and power creep. I'm sure I'll be suckered in to playing 9th, but, I'll be avoiding paying for it as much as possible.

Useless plastic?
I can send you my address, and pay postage, if you are sure about that.
And besides, with the new edition, you might enjoy a different way to play without concern for power creep and chasing the meta and so on.
I hope so... but, I might end up disappointed.

We are adding maybe 50 votes per day, and percentages are staying the same at about 64/36 for the new kit.

 jeff white wrote:
We are adding maybe 50 votes per day, and percentages are staying the same at about 64/36 for the new kit.

But, what are people voting for? The title still does not mention the box, just the version.
I didn't read the poll title, just the thread title, so my vote is invalid.

Same here. These poll results are probably not very valuable.

Yeah, I voted "yes" because I thought the question was whether or not I'd buy the rulebook, which I will, but I have no interest in Necrons or loyalist marines. Especially not loyalist marines.