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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


We have an example, and that's Sternguard. They are 14 points, have an additional attack and better gun. They're a great unit. This change would be one less AP, but one higher toughness.

Sternguard makes the point for me. Sternguard exist in a zone, because there isn't enough room to make them not 14 points and still be usable. As it is they *smother* regular marines and the only reason they aren't used more is because they aren't troops. Raising the points will allow for the distinction to show more.

Sternguard are arguably a point too cheap. The fact that their SI Bolter is free on top of their base of 14 is a bit of an issue.

But I fail to see how that makes the theoretical T5 Intercessor a no-go.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^That's basically just a technicality.

The bonuses just exacerbated a problem that was already there, which is the relationship between base-Primaris and common units of other factions, specifically the ones that are also supposedly "elite".

Imo Bolter Discipline and Shock Assault brought Tacs up to about where they should be. Super Doctrines pushed them over the top. Intercessors are out of control.

The bonuses the Intercessors are so damn minor. A 36" gun that can move and shoot? Yaaaay. Most people don't even USE the stock IH trait. The reroll ones is a minor buff that amounts to not taking a captain for the two units camping back-field. The new vehicle heavy rules takes the piss out of that half of the IH doctrine, which essentially buffs only infantry now.

An extra AP on turn 2? Yaaaay. A buff that neuters the rest of your army unless they have compatible weapons.

An extra hit on 6s? No one takes Intercessors in numbers that matter for this!

....and that's pretty much it. Nothing else buffs Intercessors in a noticeable way unless you expect them to throw fists - if you want to point to the 1 in a million TH Sarge @ LVO - even he didn't use those.

I get that those things make Intercessors "the best", but they're not the unit killing you.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sternguard are arguably a point too cheap. The fact that their SI Bolter is free on top of their base of 14 is a bit of an issue.

But I fail to see how that makes the theoretical T5 Intercessor a no-go.

Suppose Sternguard were troops. Would you ever take tacs?

Ok, technically bolter discipline and shock assault existed before the codex. That doesn't mean they still don't make intercessors better. Same for doctrines and super doctrines. What chapter tactics help bolt rifles? Master Artisans, bolter fusillade, and long range marksmen come to mind. The Imperial Fists one certainly helps. Salamanders (yeah that's just master artisans). Being able to fall back and still shoot with them certainly helps Ultramarines. But that's a leading question isn't it? Other chapter tactics help intercessors without affecting their shooting. Does always counting as in cover outside of 12 and being -1 to be hit while in cover not help? What about ignoring -1AP or a 6+++?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Suppose Sternguard were troops. Would you ever take tacs?

Suppose intercessors were elites, would you still take them?

And do you actually think that free AP isn't a good thing to have?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Does always counting as in cover outside of 12 and being -1 to be hit while in cover not help? What about ignoring -1AP or a 6+++?

They help, but no marine armies function around that. Heck most of them avoid Intercessors as much as possible except to get CP - many of them take scouts instead!

Suppose intercessors were elites, would you still take them?

That really depends on what my troops are and what purpose I need to fill. Likely not, because they just aren't that special.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^That's basically just a technicality.

The bonuses just exacerbated a problem that was already there, which is the relationship between base-Primaris and common units of other factions, specifically the ones that are also supposedly "elite".

Imo Bolter Discipline and Shock Assault brought Tacs up to about where they should be. Super Doctrines pushed them over the top. Intercessors are out of control.

The bonuses the Intercessors are so damn minor. A 36" gun that can move and shoot? Yaaaay. Most people don't even USE the stock IH trait. The reroll ones is a minor buff that amounts to not taking a captain for the two units camping back-field. The new vehicle heavy rules takes the piss out of that half of the IH doctrine, which essentially buffs only infantry now.

An extra AP on turn 2? Yaaaay. A buff that neuters the rest of your army unless they have compatible weapons.

An extra hit on 6s? No one takes Intercessors in numbers that matter for this!

....and that's pretty much it. Nothing else buffs Intercessors in a noticeable way unless you expect them to throw fists - if you want to point to the 1 in a million TH Sarge @ LVO - even he didn't use those.

I get that those things make Intercessors "the best", but they're not the unit killing you.

I don't think you understood my post. It's not the competitive value that I'm against, after all points is points. The issue, again, is how they compare to the supposedly "elite" units (even if they're troops) of other armies. Being flatly superior to a Necron Immortal is a problem. Being superior in every way to a Striking Scorpion is a problem. You're definitely underselling the super doctrines though. UM Intercessors in Tactical can move and shoot twice up to 30" with a -2. It's gross and unnecessary.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Sternguard are arguably a point too cheap. The fact that their SI Bolter is free on top of their base of 14 is a bit of an issue.

But I fail to see how that makes the theoretical T5 Intercessor a no-go.

Suppose Sternguard were troops. Would you ever take tacs?

They ain't, so I don't. But I actually might though, for various reasons. One of which being that the AP-2 isn't as big a deal when Tac Doctrine already gives me a -1. If I'm looking to have an equally resilient squad that's deploying special/heavy weapons, saving 2 ppm can get me where I want to be at fewer points. And like I said, 14 for Sternguard is kinda a steal. A free Combi-plasma upgrade for every five bodies, essentially. If they were 15 points there's an even harder decision. When I use Sternguard I usually just take a 10 man unit with SIBolters to get the maximum out of their Strat, and skip the weapon upgrades.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Suppose intercessors were elites, would you still take them?

That really depends on what my troops are and what purpose I need to fill. Likely not, because they just aren't that special.

Cool. Now compare them to other factions elite options: chosen, aspect warriors, incubi. Intercessors are better than all of those, but are troops. If loyalist marines troops aren't "special" enough to waste an elite slot on, but are superior to other factions elites, do you see the problem?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Suppose intercessors were elites, would you still take them?

That really depends on what my troops are and what purpose I need to fill. Likely not, because they just aren't that special.

Cool. Now compare them to other factions elite options: chosen, aspect warriors, Necron Immortals. Intercessors are better than all of those, but are troops. If loyalist marines troops aren't "special" enough to waste an elite slot on, but are superior to other factions elites, do you see the problem?

Premise fails. Custodes. Internal balance matters as much as external. An army does not need an "Intercessor" to be good. You'd also find that those units are not currently drastically worse than intercessors - barring squaring heavily specialized aspects versus a generalist unit.

Custodes are also triple the points cost, with the shooting of a single Intercessor at best.

Custodes basically have no shooting for their cost.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Suppose intercessors were elites, would you still take them?

That really depends on what my troops are and what purpose I need to fill. Likely not, because they just aren't that special.

Cool. Now compare them to other factions elite options: chosen, aspect warriors, Necron Immortals. Intercessors are better than all of those, but are troops. If loyalist marines troops aren't "special" enough to waste an elite slot on, but are superior to other factions elites, do you see the problem?

Premise fails. Custodes. Internal balance matters as much as external. An army does not need an "Intercessor" to be good. You'd also find that those units are not currently drastically worse than intercessors - barring squaring heavily specialized aspects versus a generalist unit.

That's still missing the point. We're comparing them to traditional 'elite' troops that have historically been much closer in 'tier' to marines, as well as comparing them to other troops and looking at how well we should expect them to do in a fight.

The story used to be Marines, as generalists, had to shoot the punchy stuff and punch the shooty stuff. Or otherwise, should have to get the drop on a unit of Scorpions in order to do well, whereas in reverse, Scorpions had to get the drop on Marines in order to do well. I'm sure we could find examples in the fiction for both scenarios. The problem is, even if the Scorpions get the drop on Intercessors, and immediately engage in CC, the Intercessors just punch back and win, if I'm not mistaken (no Eldar book on me). That's not where we should want things to be.

Old stats mean nothing because those were under the overkill mechanism.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodes are also triple the points cost, with the shooting of a single Intercessor at best.

*sigh*

49 points = less than 3 Intercessors.

6 * .666 * .333 * .333 = 0.44 damage - It would take 3 Intercessors 7 rounds of shooting to kill a Custodian. Amazing.
9 * .666 * .333 * .167 = 0.33 damage - 9 turns to melee

Alternatively --

1 * .833 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 15 turns to shoot the Intercessors to death //assuming no rapid fire, ever
3 * .833 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 2.2 turns to melee them


So very clearly the Custodes is better in melee and it becomes a problem of the delivery and the system disincentivizing melee. Now that Custodes get the same CP without needing buddies? It might work out better.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodes are also triple the points cost, with the shooting of a single Intercessor at best.

*sigh*

49 points = less than 3 Intercessors.

6 * .666 * .333 * .333 = 0.44 damage - It would take 3 Intercessors 7 rounds of shooting to kill a Custodian. Amazing.
9 * .666 * .333 * .167 = 0.33 damage - 9 turns to melee

Alternatively --

1 * .833 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 15 turns to shoot the Intercessors to death //assuming no rapid fire, ever
3 * .833 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 2.2 turns to melee them


So very clearly the Custodes is better in melee and it becomes a problem of the delivery and the system disincentivizing melee. Now that Custodes get the same CP without needing buddies? It might work out better.

My bad-I had forgotten the points cost of a basic Custodian.

Also, you did your melee math wrong-it's...

3 Attacks
5/6 hit
2/3 wound
5/6 unsaved
5/3 damage
For average damage of 2.31 damage a turn, or about three turns to kill the Intercessors. Admittedly, he'd have decent odds of not taking a wound in response, but that requires him to reach melee, which, as you noted, has the system working against you.

Edit: Also, couple of notes:

Marines get better buffs. RRAll to-hit and RR1s to-wound easily, as compared to RR1s to-hit from HQs and RR1s to-wound from a unique character only.

They also have Litanies. And, quite importantly, Doctrines.

And 51 points is, admittedly, more than 49 points. By just over 2%. They're close enough to 3 Intercessors for physics.

Tyel wrote:


Primaris by contrast are just mooks with 2 wounds.
They are too good because they are too cheap.

This, intercessors with their profile and all their rules aren't 20ppm, they're 25-30ppm. They could be ok at 20ppm if they had 1W. Many other primars are also undercosted, it feels bad when a standard primaris space marine force has the same number of models (and 10x the dice rolling) than an "elite heavy" ork army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodes are also triple the points cost, with the shooting of a single Intercessor at best.

They are priced appropriately, primaris just don't make any sense being that cheap.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Premise fails. Custodes. Internal balance matters as much as external. An army does not need an "Intercessor" to be good. You'd also find that those units are not currently drastically worse than intercessors - barring squaring heavily specialized aspects versus a generalist unit.

Maybe if a lot of mirror matchs are being played it is the case. To me external balance is a lot more important internal. It is much better to have one good build for a codex, then have each option equaly bad in your codex.

They could be ok at 20ppm if they had 1W. Many other primars are also undercosted, it feels bad when a standard primaris space marine force has the same number of models (and 10x the dice rolling) than an "elite heavy" ork army.

As someone who had access to plus 20pts troops with 1W armed with stormbolters and a melee weapon that intercessors do not have, I can tell you that 1W intercessors would not work.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The bonuses the Intercessors are so damn minor. A 36" gun that can move and shoot? Yaaaay. Most people don't even USE the stock IH trait. The reroll ones is a minor buff that amounts to not taking a captain for the two units camping back-field. The new vehicle heavy rules takes the piss out of that half of the IH doctrine, which essentially buffs only infantry now.

An extra AP on turn 2? Yaaaay. A buff that neuters the rest of your army unless they have compatible weapons.

An extra hit on 6s? No one takes Intercessors in numbers that matter for this!

....and that's pretty much it. Nothing else buffs Intercessors in a noticeable way unless you expect them to throw fists - if you want to point to the 1 in a million TH Sarge @ LVO - even he didn't use those.

I get that those things make Intercessors "the best", but they're not the unit killing you.

Obviously Marines have been nerfed - but speaking historically this is surely wrong. The LVO winning list was rocking something like 40 intercessors - and many lists in that vein did the same.
And yes, many people took the regular stock IH trait. Because a 6+++, easily buffed in your castle to a 5+++ via Chief Apothecary, is amazing. Especially when you can also benefit from a 5++. Throw in say transhuman and you can spray them with lascannons or plasma and they still don't die unless you have a run of bad luck. The fact you were hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and then rerolling 1s (from GW's favourite datasheet) to wound while moving up the table with the stalker boltrifle, plus litanties, meant you don't even really need a Chapter Master (although various people stuck one in just because). Hitting on 5+ in overwatch is also amazing. Get a bit lucky and it massively skews games.

The change to doctrines makes this army a lot less effective - but this idea intercessors were/are and don't kill anything is just wrong. Suitably buffed they do loads of damage to everything and are very tough to shift.
Also, may be pedantic, but the TH Sarg killing 4 Shining Spears is about 1 in 64 rather than 1 in a million. And he's very likely to kill *something*.

But yes, to a degree the intercessor is a part of a package - and as said the change in doctrines is a nerf, which unfortunately the Covid outbreak has made difficult to quantify (although there seemed little sign in the two weeks or so afterwards that Marines were toast). If they were to remove the Chapter Master Stratagem, and Lieutenants went up to 100 points, those would represent further nerfs to the package. Make Tremor Shells (not even a Primaris unit) say 3 CP rather than 1 CP - rather than having gushing/giggling articles that point out due to the change in CP rules you can now use it every turn come rain or shine.

My point is that Intercessors were bad at 20 points without all these buffs and synergies they have now acquired. They were not obviously *bad for the game* then. So I don't find it justified to say they are inherently bad for the game.

I also don't really care about this whole "but muh Orks and Striking Scorpions should be as tough as Marines". I'm happy enough to accept sufficient fluff has Marines - especially Marines 2.0 - being tougher. There probably should be a term for the general weakening of Eldar - in fluff and on the table over the editions - but I got over that ages ago. The Avatar can be worfed only so many times.

But the issue is "I feel elite" - no, you feel overpowered because you are getting too much for your points. That's what feeling powerful in 40k is.

We see the mirror of this "oh the basic MEQ stat line doesn't work".
But that's rubbish. It basic CSM (or tacticals) were say 7 points, people would rock up with 150 of them, and they would be very difficult to shift, while shooting/charging everything off the table. I'm not sure they'd feel "elite" exactly, but they'd break the game.

2nd'ing Intercessors still being too cheap at 20. But even if they, and other Primaris, units were made more expensive the whole special rules bloat for Marines just feels really distasteful in general. The Outriders can't just be Primaris on bikes, they ALSO need a special rule giving them extra attacks on the charge. On top of the 6 special rules and chapter traits they get already. Because..... reasons............

It just makes every other army and unit in the game feel increasingly bland as time goes on. Whoop di doo all my Windriders can do is auto-roll a 6 for advancing. Really exciting unit.

We see the mirror of this "oh the basic MEQ stat line doesn't work".
But that's rubbish. It basic CSM (or tacticals) were say 7 points, people would rock up with 150 of them, and they would be very difficult to shift, while shooting/charging everything off the table. I'm not sure they'd feel "elite" exactly, but they'd break the game.

Erm, you know, Red Corsair hordes actually work.
And that is an issue, i shouldn't need to blare "red September" whilest screaming Ura at the top of my lungs and throw what ammounts to 10'000 year old recruit blobs at my enemy but comparatively to SM2.0 it is actually required because the fast striking raiders that want to overwhelm, can't do that against sm2.0 because somwhere in the rules clusterfeth there is improved overwatch and FNP and ap..

So soviet mass assault tactics it is.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bosskelot wrote:
2nd'ing Intercessors still being too cheap at 20. But even if they, and other Primaris, units were made more expensive the whole special rules bloat for Marines just feels really distasteful in general. The Outriders can't just be Primaris on bikes, they ALSO need a special rule giving them extra attacks on the charge. On top of the 6 special rules and chapter traits they get already. Because..... reasons............

It just makes every other army and unit in the game feel increasingly bland as time goes on. Whoop di doo all my Windriders can do is auto-roll a 6 for advancing. Really exciting unit.

Not to mention that unlike many others, subfaction traits apply to all the units within the dex whilest others don't get that. And have inherently more parts to them than most other subfaction traits.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^That's basically just a technicality.

The bonuses just exacerbated a problem that was already there, which is the relationship between base-Primaris and common units of other factions, specifically the ones that are also supposedly "elite".

Imo Bolter Discipline and Shock Assault brought Tacs up to about where they should be. Super Doctrines pushed them over the top. Intercessors are out of control.

The bonuses the Intercessors are so damn minor. A 36" gun that can move and shoot? Yaaaay. Most people don't even USE the stock IH trait. The reroll ones is a minor buff that amounts to not taking a captain for the two units camping back-field. The new vehicle heavy rules takes the piss out of that half of the IH doctrine, which essentially buffs only infantry now.

An extra AP on turn 2? Yaaaay. A buff that neuters the rest of your army unless they have compatible weapons.

An extra hit on 6s? No one takes Intercessors in numbers that matter for this!

....and that's pretty much it. Nothing else buffs Intercessors in a noticeable way unless you expect them to throw fists - if you want to point to the 1 in a million TH Sarge @ LVO - even he didn't use those.

I get that those things make Intercessors "the best", but they're not the unit killing you.

A local has been rocking the tournament scene with a list of 60 IH intercessors backed up with 3 (character) dreads and a character castle.
60 dudes with 2W, 2+/5++/5+++ are absurdly difficult to move and 60 stalker bolt rifles are no joke.

 Bosskelot wrote:
2nd'ing Intercessors still being too cheap at 20. But even if they, and other Primaris, units were made more expensive the whole special rules bloat for Marines just feels really distasteful in general. The Outriders can't just be Primaris on bikes, they ALSO need a special rule giving them extra attacks on the charge. On top of the 6 special rules and chapter traits they get already. Because..... reasons............

It just makes every other army and unit in the game feel increasingly bland as time goes on. Whoop di doo all my Windriders can do is auto-roll a 6 for advancing. Really exciting unit.

Not to mention that unlike many others, subfaction traits apply to all the units within the dex whilest others don't get that. And have inherently more parts to them than most other subfaction traits.

Applying to every unit is really only applicable to CSM to be fair. And also being fair, other codexes got multi-bonus subfaction traits long before marines 2.0

I get this is about intercessors and I agree, they are good. I find the generalist nature of marines is being lost over time. It feels more like they want to give marines 0 real wargear options but make their generic set ups rock the house regardless.

I look at the new outriders, used to be the day I felt bikers were a finesse unit, needed some skills to use them well. These outriders though ? Are like amped up intercessors. Double the wounds, super fast, double the shooting, like triple the attacks with better AP.

It just feels like things are over all power creeping on up with Marines and that feeling started with the last codex they had. I'm not even trying to be a hater, I tend to really enjoy my Marines but the first born didn't ever feel like an auto win, some of these units ? Feel kinda close, especially in casual lists.

Stacked rules on buffed stat lines for cheap cost with generalist gear. I dunno, it starts to feel like too much and even the dream of balance died, was buried and they keep saying its alive and well.

I mean its sad Intercessors are looked at so poorly in a marine list when for most armies they'd be a cherished unit addition.

Trasvi wrote:

A local has been rocking the tournament scene with a list of 60 IH intercessors backed up with 3 (character) dreads and a character castle.
60 dudes with 2W, 2+/5++/5+++ are absurdly difficult to move and 60 stalker bolt rifles are no joke.

This has been nerfed. March of the ancients can only be used once per battle, since end of february. No more 3 character dreads. Devastator doctrine is now only active in the first turn, and switches to tactical doctrine T2.

Well, good thing that FW didn't make any character dreads without the need for a stratagem that can also recite litanies, because that would be bad, right?

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, good thing that FW didn't make any character dreads without the need for a stratagem that can also recite litanies, because that would be bad, right?

Right, that would be really bad We will see how those turn out, once the FW rules have been rewritten, and we know all the rules of 9th.

I don't even want to field my dark angels (far from being my main army luckily) anymore these days (DA vs SM us just marines vs marines to me, a mirror match of the boring kind), they just feel too much. And they aren't even one of thre worst marine offenders.
I really wouldn't want to be a Ravenguard or an IH (or any of "these") player.

At least DA don't get full rerolls. DA intercessors don't get any doctrine/etc. bonus for being in CC, but honestly just shock troop giving an extra attack first round is enough to deal with hordes.

Horde troops really can't match intercessors ATM, hopefully 9th won't make this worse.

Should be noted though that intercessors are getting hit by these new rules.

The blast rule is custom made for them. While using a bast weapon to shoot at grots is now more enticing because you score always max hits, you are still firing what usually is a high power weapon at cheap models. Intercessors on the other hand are already quite good targets of these weapons and like going in groups of 10, so the fact that the blast rule exist is a major nerf for them. Plasma cannons will clear them in no time.

You could say that they know need to just roll in 5 man squads, but they have really powerful stratagems that get neutered by this approach, not to mention that the big squads came in quite handy when you wanted to keep them under aura effects.

Also, 5 man squads are now extremely bad at protecting chars. You can sandwich your CM between 3x5 squads, but i only need to clear 9 intercessors and then your CM is dog food.

I really think that we should look at the full picture.

Whether plasma clears intercessors depends on the intercessors. Iron hands with 5++/5+++ take a lot of plasma to kill. 4 plasma shots (average from plasma cannon with blast Vs 10 man squad) kills one intercessor on average with rerolls to hit and wound it's nearly 2, but not quite. Where are you getting the 7-10 plasma cannons you need to clear one squad? Can you get them for <60 points each including the chasis and support characters? Marines are a little mental ATM.

I didn't say that they are now screwed and unplayable. I said that they were nerfed, and that is objective.

Drager wrote:
Whether plasma clears intercessors depends on the intercessors. Iron hands with 5++/5+++ take a lot of plasma to kill. 4 plasma shots (average from plasma cannon with blast Vs 10 man squad) kills one intercessor on average with rerolls to hit and wound it's nearly 2, but not quite. Where are you getting the 7-10 plasma cannons you need to clear one squad? Can you get them for <60 points each including the chasis and support characters? Marines are a little mental ATM.

PC are D3 shots.

30 * .666 * .833 * .666 = 11 wounding hits before damage

5++ gets them a 44% to save one wound and 11% to save both. From here its just a gamble as to how many shots get wasted trying to get a second wound on an intercessor. Technically 7 should die, but that definitely won't happen. More like 3 or 4.

No damage spill over is the most brutal thing about 5+++.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Drager wrote:
Whether plasma clears intercessors depends on the intercessors. Iron hands with 5++/5+++ take a lot of plasma to kill. 4 plasma shots (average from plasma cannon with blast Vs 10 man squad) kills one intercessor on average with rerolls to hit and wound it's nearly 2, but not quite. Where are you getting the 7-10 plasma cannons you need to clear one squad? Can you get them for <60 points each including the chasis and support characters? Marines are a little mental ATM.

PC are D3 shots.

30 * .666 * .833 * .666 = 11 wounding hits before damage

5++ gets them a 44% to save one wound and 11% to save both. From here its just a gamble as to how many shots get wasted trying to get a second wound on an intercessor. Technically 7 should die, but that definitely won't happen. More like 3 or 4.

No damage spill over is the most brutal thing about 5+++.

Not an imperial player sorry for the mistake on them being Dd3. I though d6, which is why I underestimated the number of cannons. Makes the point much stronger, thanks. IH intercessors are insane.