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I asked a similar question about army soup and not I'm tackling this topic. I fully agree with GW's decision to reform things in the 9th edition and to not allow crap like a few grots holding up tanks, but to just punish them all strikes me as wrong. Lore-wise, IG, orks, tyranids, certain CSM armies and daemons generally revolve around hordes of some kind, to varying degrees. Am I really a bad person for wanting to swarm the field with load of berzerkers and bloodletters? Thoughts on this issue.
   
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We literally don't know. Some stuff that has been revealed, like blasts, sounds dangerous to hordes. There have however been specific mentions of things hordes will be getting in compensation. But we don't know what yet. We also don't know little things like point costs for blast weapons given their new rules. It may well be fine. It may be that hordes are less competitive for a bit. We don't know yet.

Suggesting you're a bad person for wanting to play a horde army however is just being silly.
   
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I think its going to come down to how high the point costs of horde units are going to be versus the cost increase of blast weapons.

Missile launchers for example are already expensive for their versatility, are they suddenly going to be one of the most expensive heavy infantry weapons in the game?

and how much are the points going to increase for horde units vs non horde units.

Also going to depend on what compensation buffs they see for the changes to no longer being able to tag vehicles and lock them down.

Melee horde units with the reveals so far are in a really bad spot.

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nothing wrong with hoard armies, but most armies have trouble chewing through large hoards. GW is just giving dedicated tools for that.

it's like complaining that GW hates vehicles because the game has lascannons.

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My hope is that hordes are being punished because they are very good are accomplishing the missions GW have designed.

There is always a clash between "we set up our armies on planet bowling ball and shoot stuff until one side falls over" and "we play to the objectives in the actual game". Or at least, thats been the case for the last 20+ years and I don't see it changing now.

Whether or not this will make the game attractive to casual players (who tend to play according to the former) is unclear. But I think the idea hordes are deader than disco may be overstated.
   
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Upstate, New York

A lot of the weapons that were supposed to be good vs. horde armies just weren’t in 8th. The changes to the blast rules will hopefully make them effective at their job.

How this shifts the meta is entirely up to the rest of the rules and how the points fall out.

But fixing the guns so they do what it says on the tin is a good thing. I’m OK with stuff being inefficient, but it should do it’s job, even if it’s overpriced.

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There is a perception in 8e that unit stats are a "race to the bottom" where the durability advantages of being a Space Marine over being a Guardsman don't really matter because spammable guns that can kill both very efficiently are so common. In older editions morale and blast templates were a control on how tough cheap hordes could be, but 8e effectively got rid of both of those, and a lot of GW's math/pricing didn't take that into account.

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The issue is if GW overvalue Blast as they tend to with all their new ideas I suspect Hordes will probably still be viable as no-one will take the blast weapons if they have a choice.

I suspect Guard will become an autoloose matchup along with marines while other armies will find it increasingly difficult to be able to bring enough flexability.
   
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Ice_can wrote:
The issue is if GW overvalue Blast as they tend to with all their new ideas I suspect Hordes will probably still be viable as no-one will take the blast weapons if they have a choice.

I suspect Guard will become an autoloose matchup along with marines while other armies will find it increasingly difficult to be able to bring enough flexability.


Honestly, a lot of ways people deal with hordes now are high rate of fire weapons. Those are still going to be prevalent. So people planning on dealing with hordes in 8th wlll continue to do so in 9th. They just won’t use the new set of tools available if they are overpriced.

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 Nevelon wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
The issue is if GW overvalue Blast as they tend to with all their new ideas I suspect Hordes will probably still be viable as no-one will take the blast weapons if they have a choice.

I suspect Guard will become an autoloose matchup along with marines while other armies will find it increasingly difficult to be able to bring enough flexability.


Honestly, a lot of ways people deal with hordes now are high rate of fire weapons. Those are still going to be prevalent. So people planning on dealing with hordes in 8th wlll continue to do so in 9th. They just won’t use the new set of tools available if they are overpriced.


This. Why use a Battle Cannon when you can use a Punisher?

 
   
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Horde armies are bad because they slow down the game. They take a lot of time to set up, and to move. Its not fun to see your opponent roll 1000+ dice during a game. Blast weapons, point increases, vehicles being able to shoot in melee, will greatly decrease the number of models, which means less set up time, less movement time, less dice to roll.
   
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 Sim-Life wrote:



This. Why use a Battle Cannon when you can use a Punisher?


Because not everyone can and will tailor vs specific armies. In general people are willing to play with a less optimal unit, as long as the other option is still valid and lets them save money.



Horde armies are bad because they slow down the game. They take a lot of time to set up, and to move. Its not fun to see your opponent roll 1000+ dice during a game. Blast weapons, point increases, vehicles being able to shoot in melee, will greatly decrease the number of models, which means less set up time, less movement time, less dice to roll.

Probably not as important to people who play in their own homes. For people playing at stores or who have to pay for reserving tables, and army that has 50min turns is unfun to play against, that is for sure.


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 p5freak wrote:
Horde armies are bad because they slow down the game. They take a lot of time to set up, and to move. Its not fun to see your opponent roll 1000+ dice during a game. Blast weapons, point increases, vehicles being able to shoot in melee, will greatly decrease the number of models, which means less set up time, less movement time, less dice to roll.


You may not care for horde armies, but I can't see a point where they are "bad" for the game. I completely understand you don't want to or wouldn't like to play against them, but the lore and setting clearly establish horde armies as a common threat that armies in the setting will have to encounter, so I really struggle to see where they could be construed as bad. I would also like to note that I'm sure a lot of people don't like sitting down and waiting for their opponent to finish their turn, but its a game. If your opponent has to roll a lot of dice, then so be it. I'm sure on the opposite of the table they horde players don't particularly enjoy dual punisher cannon flyers rolling 40 dice to hit...
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Horde armies are bad because they slow down the game. They take a lot of time to set up, and to move. Its not fun to see your opponent roll 1000+ dice during a game. Blast weapons, point increases, vehicles being able to shoot in melee, will greatly decrease the number of models, which means less set up time, less movement time, less dice to roll.


Re-rolls slows the game down faster than hordes. I play a lot of horde armies and i can 100% for sure tell you castle shooting armies are slower than my horde armies. Yes it takes longer to set up and move, that is 100% true, But turn 1 99% the time is only movement and very little shooting. Most hordes also has 0 re-rolls or just re-roll 1's or if they do shoot its 1 shot each. Armies like DE (which i also play) venom spam (12 Venoms), armies also like Tau and Marines, all has to not only move 30-70 models (where hordes move 100-150 models) each turn but they also have to shoot with almost all of those models and they get Re-rolls on top of re-rolls (some armies moreso than others).

My slowest game in 8th at an ITC event was Venom Spam vs Tau, we didn't get past turn 3 b.c to many dice rolling and we were going fast.

One of my fastest games was Nids vs UM, 60 Genestealers, 60 Hgants, 6 Hive Guard, 1x3 Rippers, Malanthropes, Swarm Lord +Guard and a couple Broodlords, thats 138 models. It was fast b.c my turn 1 was moving models on movement trays, casting 6 power and shooting 2 units. His turn was slower than mine. PS: He had 2 battalions, 6x5 Primaris, Hellblasters, banner guy with other HQ's, Eliminators and Intercesptors (DSing HB guys can't remember the actual name), and Repuslor or 2 i can't remember. But it was he Normally UM list, not as good as IH/IF but still someone good, able to go 3-2 easily.

Even tho he was UM and had about 50 models on the table, his turn one he rolled (with re-rolls) over 400 dice.
EDIT: No it wasn't my fasted b.c I lost, I actually won that game. I did however lose to the top player which was Tau and only b.c he could stand on terrain an di couldn't melee him.. so stupid that genestealers can't melee off ledges lol.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 05:29:20


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Non of this things seem to be very horde. I remember seeing the old demons+pox walkers soup list, before it got nerfed, and with spreading it could take 30 min it the movment phase alone. it could take a large chunk of time from opponents time, when dead horrors were turning in to more horrors and a poxwalkers.

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Seabass wrote:

You may not care for horde armies, but I can't see a point where they are "bad" for the game. I completely understand you don't want to or wouldn't like to play against them, but the lore and setting clearly establish horde armies as a common threat that armies in the setting will have to encounter, so I really struggle to see where they could be construed as bad. I would also like to note that I'm sure a lot of people don't like sitting down and waiting for their opponent to finish their turn, but its a game. If your opponent has to roll a lot of dice, then so be it. I'm sure on the opposite of the table they horde players don't particularly enjoy dual punisher cannon flyers rolling 40 dice to hit...


Of course horde players dont enjoy getting hit by punisher cannons. However, if hordes didnt exist in the first place, no one would use punisher cannons. One players gets annoyed because he has to wait for his opponent to roll hundreds of dice, and he is forced to roll lots of dice as well, to counter a horde.

I dont really mind a large number of models. What i mind is the time needed to manage them. GW could have done something to speed them up, but they didnt. Instead they decided to reduce the overall number of models, which also reduces the time to manage them, and im ok with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Re-rolls slows the game down faster than hordes. I play a lot of horde armies and i can 100% for sure tell you castle shooting armies are slower than my horde armies. Yes it takes longer to set up and move, that is 100% true, But turn 1 99% the time is only movement and very little shooting. Most hordes also has 0 re-rolls or just re-roll 1's or if they do shoot its 1 shot each.


Good point, rerolls also take time. Lots of dice also mean lots of rerolls. I dont know any horde army who hasnt any reroll ability, or is used without additional reroll abilities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 05:41:23


 
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Seabass wrote:

You may not care for horde armies, but I can't see a point where they are "bad" for the game. I completely understand you don't want to or wouldn't like to play against them, but the lore and setting clearly establish horde armies as a common threat that armies in the setting will have to encounter, so I really struggle to see where they could be construed as bad. I would also like to note that I'm sure a lot of people don't like sitting down and waiting for their opponent to finish their turn, but its a game. If your opponent has to roll a lot of dice, then so be it. I'm sure on the opposite of the table they horde players don't particularly enjoy dual punisher cannon flyers rolling 40 dice to hit...


Of course horde players dont enjoy getting hit by punisher cannons. However, if hordes didnt exist in the first place, no one would use punisher cannons. One players gets annoyed because he has to wait for his opponent to roll hundreds of dice, and he is forced to roll lots of dice as well, to counter a horde.

I dont really mind a large number of models. What i mind is the time needed to manage them. GW could have done something to speed them up, but they didnt. Instead they decided to reduce the overall number of models, which also reduces the time to manage them, and im ok with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Re-rolls slows the game down faster than hordes. I play a lot of horde armies and i can 100% for sure tell you castle shooting armies are slower than my horde armies. Yes it takes longer to set up and move, that is 100% true, But turn 1 99% the time is only movement and very little shooting. Most hordes also has 0 re-rolls or just re-roll 1's or if they do shoot its 1 shot each.


Good point, rerolls also take time. Lots of dice also mean lots of rerolls. I dont know any horde army who hasnt any reroll ability, or is used without additional reroll abilities.


I am not sure where this time constraint comes from. Maybe it's just a demographic difference in your area and mine? When we get to play, we play what we want, and if that means orks make 120 attacks, then there are dice apps for that and movement trays to speed up play. I play Tyranids among other armies and I haven't had a problem with not playing quickly enough to keep the game moving.

Is the time constraint concern based on tournament play? cause if so, I would recommend a chess clock.

In terms of reroll abilities, tyranids reroll abilities are built into their weapons, not into the HQ or elites models save for a few models that can provide that bump, so a lot of the time, they arent rerolling a lot of dice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 05:46:08


 
   
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Hoard is becoming a keyword in 9th and a lot of units are going to be changing and there will be new additions to the rules that utilize the hoards keyword.


Example of such a change would be:

Tyranid Hormagaunts: unit size 10-40.

If you purchase 20 or more hormagaunts in a single squad they gain the hoard keyword.





Hoard will affect many things im assuming. Some examples would be:

A unit choosing to fall back from a hoard unit suffers a -1 to their fall back check.

A hoard unit who is above 50% of its original models can never loose more than 6 models due to a failed moral check.

A hoard unit that is surrounding a destroyed transport instantly kills all occupants.

A hoard unit that is composed of more than 30 models does not gain the benefit of cover until they are reduced to less than 20 models.

A hoard unit that has objective secured and has the majority of its models within 3" of an objective automatically claims control of said objective.



Note the above are just examples of things that could be applied to hoards.

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 p5freak wrote:
Horde armies are bad because they slow down the game. They take a lot of time to set up, and to move. Its not fun to see your opponent roll 1000+ dice during a game. Blast weapons, point increases, vehicles being able to shoot in melee, will greatly decrease the number of models, which means less set up time, less movement time, less dice to roll.


yeah, instead of taking 1 unit of 40 models it will be better to take 4 units of 10

doesn't make the game faster but slower and the problem is not Hordes, but that the core rules are written with less models in mind and as long as single model meachnics are a thing the game will be slow at 2k points not matter if there are a hordes on the table or not

and Horde armies by istself were only a thing at the beginning of 8th, at the end they were already weak and not really played anyway, and the game was still slow

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 kodos wrote:

yeah, instead of taking 1 unit of 40 models it will be better to take 4 units of 10


You can still take a 40 model unit, or 4 units of 10, but you would need to cut something else. Cultists are going from 4 to 6 points, similar models probably the same. The overall number of models will be reduced, which is a good thing. As you said, the rules arent designed to handle 200+ models playing quickly.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/06/15 07:05:54


 
   
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People, it's "HORDE" not "HOARD"...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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 p5freak wrote:
The overall number of models will be reduced.


for Marines about 5-10 models at 2k, which does not solve anything
also with 8th the model count was rediuced compared to 7th and it did not make the game faster

this alone does not solve the problem unless you start playing 1000 points instead of 2000 points with 9th

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 kodos wrote:

for Marines about 5-10 models at 2k, which does not solve anything


So you already know only marine infantry goes up in points ? Everything else stays the same in a SM army ? Points will not go up for vehicles ?
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Horde armies are bad because they slow down the game. They take a lot of time to set up, and to move. Its not fun to see your opponent roll 1000+ dice during a game. Blast weapons, point increases, vehicles being able to shoot in melee, will greatly decrease the number of models, which means less set up time, less movement time, less dice to roll.


This is bull, what really slow downs the game is SM and they're thousands re-rolls.

The new rules will probably cause those horde armies to go elite style and rolling less dice, but the game real cancer, SM armies, will still roll their thousand of dice.

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 kodos wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Horde armies are bad because they slow down the game. They take a lot of time to set up, and to move. Its not fun to see your opponent roll 1000+ dice during a game. Blast weapons, point increases, vehicles being able to shoot in melee, will greatly decrease the number of models, which means less set up time, less movement time, less dice to roll.


yeah, instead of taking 1 unit of 40 models it will be better to take 4 units of 10

doesn't make the game faster but slower and the problem is not Hordes, but that the core rules are written with less models in mind and as long as single model meachnics are a thing the game will be slow at 2k points not matter if there are a hordes on the table or not

and Horde armies by istself were only a thing at the beginning of 8th, at the end they were already weak and not really played anyway, and the game was still slow


We haven't seen Moral yet or is Hordes buffs that. So it might still be good for hordes to be in larger groups.

But i feel your point. Why take more than 10 ever with the new Blast rules? Every IG player is going to have a unit of Wyverns now.

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BrianDavion wrote:
nothing wrong with hoard armies, but most armies have trouble chewing through large hoards. GW is just giving dedicated tools for that.

it's like complaining that GW hates vehicles because the game has lascannons.


On the other hand most horde armies have trouble killing the unkillable stuff. Seriously, horde armies do well only because they are anti tournament meta. In a full game, played with TAC lists, their efficiency drops dramatically while stuff like SM, knights, AM... is still very good.

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 p5freak wrote:
 kodos wrote:

for Marines about 5-10 models at 2k, which does not solve anything

So you already know only marine infantry goes up in points ? Everything else stays the same in a SM army ? Points will not go up for vehicles ?
´

as the playtesters said that they had one squad Marines at 2k points less compared to 8th, yes we know what to expect

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 Sim-Life wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
The issue is if GW overvalue Blast as they tend to with all their new ideas I suspect Hordes will probably still be viable as no-one will take the blast weapons if they have a choice.

I suspect Guard will become an autoloose matchup along with marines while other armies will find it increasingly difficult to be able to bring enough flexability.


Honestly, a lot of ways people deal with hordes now are high rate of fire weapons. Those are still going to be prevalent. So people planning on dealing with hordes in 8th wlll continue to do so in 9th. They just won’t use the new set of tools available if they are overpriced.


This. Why use a Battle Cannon when you can use a Punisher?

Except that doesnt mean they will be any worse off in 8th than they were in 8th.
Which was my point I doubt that Blast etc will change very much in real terms. Just make a few more weapons probably a few more points of overcosted and nothing in the meta will really change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 07:47:06


 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
nothing wrong with hoard armies, but most armies have trouble chewing through large hoards. GW is just giving dedicated tools for that.

it's like complaining that GW hates vehicles because the game has lascannons.


On the other hand most horde armies have trouble killing the unkillable stuff. Seriously, horde armies do well only because they are anti tournament meta. In a full game, played with TAC lists, their efficiency drops dramatically while stuff like SM, knights, AM... is still very good.


Yes 100% this. This has always been true. But Blasts were also better back then, so were flamers. And b.c units like Tanks and Marines were at least 4x tougher than they are now. It was even harder to kill that stuff. In 8th hordes were bad b.c soooo much massive str 4-6 shooting with with re-rolls. 9th might change but. But we'll see. Hordes

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 Blackie wrote:

This is bull, what really slow downs the game is SM and they're thousands re-rolls.


Not true. A unit of 10 intercessors gets 20 shots at rapid fire, they hit 13 times, and get 7 rerolls with a chapter master. 25 ork boys with shootas get 50 shots, rerolling 1s, and additional rolls for dakka dakka dakka, when rolling 6s. In melee 10 intercessors have 34 attacks, they hit 23 times, getting 11 rerolls. Next turn this goes down to 23 attacks. 25 ork boys in melee with choppas already have 100 attacks, getting additional attacks for 6s.
   
 
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