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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Tell that to the sisters champions who state this is a legit tactic

Are these sisters champions stating this in another thread that the rest of us are unaware of?

A.T. wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Tell that to the sisters champions who state this is a legit tactic

Are these sisters champions stating this in another thread that the rest of us are unaware of?

The sisters purging marine chapters argument is a long standing one that comes up every year as 'evidence' sister are equal, if not better than marines... With the specific tactic of drop pod/teleport/seraphim diving through windows to assassinate a chapter master being the meat of it.

Is Melissa still about? She would be all over this...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
If it is the latter that is chosen then the sisters have a problem, as the chapter will now fully mobilise with all its kit.

i.e. it's going to take a lot more than a sisters order to bring them down, it would require substantial naval support and most likely would be left to another or more chapters.

Nah, Sisters have so much more resources than any given space marine chapter, they won't have trouble dealing with this. The real need for the strike force is to avoid marines fleeing and becoming renegades. Here, the chapter will be running around in confusion, fighting like a decapitated chicken would, with no idea who is in charge (the people in charge have been melta-ed to oblivion, remember) and why they are attacked. At this point you could finish the job with guardsmen really. And you can expect a lot of surrender (and, depending on the Inquisitor, a lot of non-lethal penance, like incorporation into another chapter or the Deathwatch too, since those are rank and file marines that are likely not as corrupt as those in the command structures), which will even further simplify matters.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
and armed with better equipment than is usually permitted to them are able to kill a chapter master

This bit is plain not true. All the wargear listed is always available to Sisters.
The text just says that they take their best weapons with them. Usually you can expect a lot of basic Sisters armed with just a boltgun. Here they only take veteran Sisters with lots of special weapons. That's the idea behind a strike force. Concentration of power.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
to kill a chapter master and his personal retinue (usually like three or four guys)

Did we read the same text? The aim is to destroy the command structures, enough for it to “disable the entire organization”. That's not killing just the chapter master and his bodyguards. That's killing him, his second in command, and most of the captains. So, realistically, going through their bodyguards too. And the marines that just happens to be around.

That does not make sense though. Companies are fairly autonomous. Each have their own established commander, the first company captain will also immediately take up command, all these captains of each company are highly competent tacticians and strategists who will have most likely coordinated huge war efforts involving multiple companies. The sisters aren't killing all of them in that one strike.

Marines have lost their senior command structure in a day on a battlefield and have not fell apart, the next most senior captain takes up the mantle until a future chapter master can be elected.

Also, marines are smart, do you really think they have their WHOLE command structure in one place to be susceptible to such attacks? Multiple senior commanders will be in the fleet, some in warzones, and others spread throughout a vast fortress

You need to accept that this piece of fluff you are championing is flawed and makes little sense. Just like back flipping terminators etc.

I will accept they may have some success in taking out a chapter master, but the whole senior command structure and it somehow leaving marines like nids without synapse?

I'll give you an opportunity to explain a very really possibility at some point in the chapters future.... Ordo Hereticus discover the Dark Angels secret. They decide to send in the sisters to destroy them/eliminate the command structure. Explain exactly how they would achieve this... And You must bare in mind this should be possible (in your head) even though they are a fleet based chapter with huge resources due to being a first founding.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
The sisters purging marine chapters argument is a long standing one that comes up every year as 'evidence' sister are equal, if not better than marines... With the specific tactic of drop pod/teleport/seraphim diving through windows to assassinate a chapter master being the meat of it.

In this particular case it was brought up as a counterpoint to "No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial." - and that specific tactic of drop pod headhunting was a reference to official material, with a page number and everything.

Sisters aren't quite on par because they lack the augmentation and their power armour is more simple compared to the marines; but if the marines weren't around the sisters would take their place as humanity's shock troops easily and have way better numbers for it. I guess their numbers could actually make up for it in some situations.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

A.T. wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Tell that to the sisters champions who state this is a legit tactic

Are these sisters champions stating this in another thread that the rest of us are unaware of?

The sisters purging marine chapters argument is a long standing one that comes up every year as 'evidence' sister are equal, if not better than marines... With the specific tactic of drop pod/teleport/seraphim diving through windows to assassinate a chapter master being the meat of it.

Is Melissa still about? She would be all over this...

Linked it so shouldn't be long.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Sisters have so much more resources than any given space marine chapter, they won't have trouble dealing with this.

Kinda, not really.

The Ecclesiarchy and Sisterhood as a whole? Absolutely. Probably more resources than all the Space Marines put together. But that's got to be distributed across the entire Ecclesiarchy, the entire Sisterhood, and not all those resources are necessarily combat related (a great deal are probably more educational and civic, given the Adepta Sororitas' increased role in civilian lives - unlike Space Marines, which are entirely dedicated to war).

So, a comparatively sized force of Sisters probably wouldn't have the same war materiel as a full Astartes Chapter.

The real need for the strike force is to avoid marines fleeing and becoming renegades.

Well, and the terrifying amount of firepower and equipment a Fortress-Monastery has. But, yes, after taking down the Chapter Master, it would essential to bring the Marines to heel under Imperial authority - and specifically IMPERIAL, not Ecclesiarchical. An Inquisitor, for example.

Here, the chapter will be running around in confusion, fighting like a decapitated chicken would, with no idea who is in charge (the people in charge have been melta-ed to oblivion, remember) and why they are attacked.

Yeah nah. That's not Marines.

The only cases I've heard of Marines "running around in confusion" are cases of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion (masters of deception and asymmetrical warfare), Daemonic incursions (and that's not even guaranteed) and things like a well-executed Necron uprising. The Marine command structure is rather robust, and Astartes are more than capable of operating under a collapsing command structure. Want to hurt a Chapter badly? Don't go for their leaders - go for their Apothecaries.

The Celestial Lions didn't have their leaders targeted by "Ork snipers" - their Apothecaries were, and THEN their leaders were hit - and they still were able to rally behind a Veteran Sergeant.

Also, "all the people in charge melta'd to oblivion", so you've rounded up all the various leaders of the Chapter with pinpoint accuracy, no matter how deeply burrowed into their fortress, all their Reclusiam, Librarius, senior Techmarines and Apothecaries, without ever giving away your mere arrival in system, and drop podding exactly where you need to be? Sorry, I call BS on that - and I'd call the same on literally any faction doing that. The only ones realistically capable of that I'd say are the Assassinorum, Necron Deathmarks, and maybe a concerted effort from the Alpha Legion. Not Marines, not Sisters.

Forgive me if I missed it, but what modern lore supports Sisters being able to do what you've described above?

I'd like to draw attention to the extract from the (very very old) source you've provided, which specifies that the Sisters attack the "renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren" - not the entire Captaincy.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Is Melissa still about? She would be all over this...

Since someone bugged me to look at this post... the "sisters purging space marines" lore is from the Rogue Trader era, so take from that what you will-- of anything outside of the ancient RT lore with the infamous "Sister Sin" entry, Sisters rarely fight Space Marines to my memory, and usually it ends badly for both sides of the conflict when it does happen (one of the few notable exceptions being when Chaos Marines attacked a Sororitas shrine world and were utterly defeated, but that battle was little more than a small blurb in a codex with no details on the amount of forces on each side).

As for the rest, I kinda find the idea of Sisters "assassinating" space marine captains to be ridiculous, not because it's outside of their capability, but because it's outside of their modus operandi-- if a force of Sisters had a problem enough with a space marine captain that they wanted him dead, I don't see assassination being the way they'd do it... more likely than not, marching up to him with an army at their back feels more appropriate.

At one point, Sisters did in fact have drop pod rules, but how canon they are is anyone's guess-- it was some kind of experimental rules in a white dwarf magazine, probably done more for coolness' sake than anything.

Also, I laugh at how people are taking my words to strawman-levels of ridiculousness. The only thing I argued is that veteran Sisters (IE not the average grunt Battle Sister squaddie) are capable of matching Space Marines in terms of combat skill, with the main advantage of a Space Marine over said veteran Sister being power and durability. Which is supported by both the in-game lore and the stats of the tabletop. Yet somehow this is being warped in to people claiming I was arguing some other nonsense? Grow up.

A.T. wrote:
The sisters strikeforce the example given doesn't seem to be any larger or better armed than the marine strike force box-set - as I said above it seems rather small to be pitched against something like a chapter master. And 'better equipped' in the context of the article is accurate in the sense that Celestians could take a heavy weapon in their squad, while batter sisters could not...

I wouldn't expect 20 tactical marines, 10 assault marines, and five scouts launched by drop-pod to be able to pull it off against someone like Calgar or Dante and their personal honour guard for example

Neither would I, but then, Dante and Calgar are head shoulders and navels above generic renegade chapter masters by any stretch of imagination.

Ass Blaster the Chapter Master of the Raptor Crappers chapter doesn't walk around cutting Skarbrand in half or killing the Swarmlord in single combat.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Nah, Sisters have so much more resources than any given space marine chapter, they won't have trouble dealing with this.

I agree, Sisters need to beat a Marine chapter through attrition warfare and make use of the greater resources they can pool together to take out a single chapter, and given equal resources and numbers would be no match.

The real need for the strike force is to avoid marines fleeing and becoming renegades. Here, the chapter will be running around in confusion, fighting like a decapitated chicken would, with no idea who is in charge (the people in charge have been melta-ed to oblivion, remember) and why they are attacked.

You don't read much non-Sisters fluff, do you?

This bit is plain not true. All the wargear listed is always available to Sisters. The text just says that they take their best weapons with them. Usually you can expect a lot of basic Sisters armed with just a boltgun. Here they only take veteran Sisters with lots of special weapons. That's the idea behind a strike force. Concentration of power.

Right, which is to say better equipment than they normally would be using, because their standard equipment just won't cut it.

Did we read the same text? The aim is to destroy the command structures, enough for it to “disable the entire organization”. That's not killing just the chapter master and his bodyguards. That's killing him, his second in command, and most of the captains. So, realistically, going through their bodyguards too. And the marines that just happens to be around.

It says the chapter master and his attendant brethren, not every officer in charge of all ten companies that are all conspicuously in one place together.

I'm sorry that you pulling fluff that is older than I am to support your erroneous assertion that Sisters are as good as or better than Marines on an individual basis isn't working for you.

 Melissia wrote:
(one of the few notable exceptions being when Chaos Marines attacked a Sororitas shrine world and were utterly defeated, but that battle was little more than a small blurb in a codex with no details on the amount of forces on each side).

The San Leor Massacre
Unspecified elements of the Red Corsairs warband attacked by similarly unspecified forces from nine separate orders of sisters.
Given the context quite possibly hundreds or less of the chaos marines getting steamrolled by thousands or tens of thousands of angry sisters.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, a comparatively sized force of Sisters probably wouldn't have the same war materiel as a full Astartes Chapter.

Well, that's your opinion. Mine differ. The Sisters are some kind of vanity project for the Ecclesiarchy, and the Abbess has a seat as a High Lord of Terra. Which Cardinal is going to say “Let's diminish the budget of the Sororitas”? Especially given their role as inner affairs of the Ecclesiarchy? That Cardinal better have absolutely nothing in their closet that could be used against them…

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, and the terrifying amount of firepower and equipment a Fortress-Monastery has.

Why do y'all keep assuming this happens in the middle of the Fortress-Monastery?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The only cases I've heard of Marines "running around in confusion" are cases of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion (masters of deception and asymmetrical warfare), Daemonic incursions (and that's not even guaranteed) and things like a well-executed Necron uprising.

So, how many times have you read about Marines dealing with being attacked by Imperial forces they never suspected to be enemies, all while they found themselves unable to contact their leaders?
I'm sure if you gave them a few hours to regroup they would do fine. But the whole point is, you don't.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Celestial Lions didn't have their leaders targeted by "Ork snipers" - their Apothecaries were, and THEN their leaders were hit - and they still were able to rally behind a Veteran Sergeant.

Yeah, they got plenty of time to do so.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Also, marines are smart, do you really think they have their WHOLE command structure in one place to be susceptible to such attacks?

Yes. The whole point is that they don't suspect such attack. We aren't talking about paranoid Dark Angels here. We are talking about a chapter that has slowly evolved in a way that some Inquisitor deal troubling, but that never had any official warning and don't suspect a thing.
They are holding a meeting in a secured zone, with lots of imperial forces around. It's as safe as can be, until the very ally they counted on for safety turn on them.
The Imperium is an unforgiving place.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You need to accept that this piece of fluff you are championing is flawed and makes little sense.

Ah yes, I must discard official lore and go with your head cannon.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Ordo Hereticus discover the Dark Angels secret. They decide to send in the sisters to destroy them/eliminate the command structure. Explain exactly how they would achieve this...

Are you asking me to write you one, or maybe several, books of unofficial GW lore? I mean, this is so dependent on the specifics! What is the personality of the involved Inquisitor(s)? Who else is in the known?
I am not really here to write more fanfic, I'm looking at the official lore instead.

 Melissia wrote:
As for the rest, I kinda find the idea of Sisters "assassinating" space marine captains to be ridiculous, not because it's outside of their capability, but because it's outside of their modus operandi-- if a force of Sisters had a problem enough with a space marine captain that they wanted him dead, I don't see assassination being the way they'd do it... more likely than not, marching up to him with an army at their back feels more appropriate.

That's how they would do it on their own. But if they act at the request of an Inquisitor, they will follow the Inquisitor's modus operandi.

 Melissia wrote:
At one point, Sisters did in fact have drop pod rules, but how canon they are is anyone's guess-- it was some kind of experimental rules in a white dwarf magazine, probably done more for coolness' sake than anything.

Melissia I just linked to those rules a few messages above!
Citadel journal 59, p19, link above in the thread.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Neither would I, but then, Dante and Calgar are head shoulders and navels above generic renegade chapter masters by any stretch of imagination.

Ass Blaster the Chapter Master of the Raptor Crappers chapter doesn't walk around cutting Skarbrand in half or killing the Swarmlord in single combat.

I find the 1rst founding adulation really tiring and boring.
Why would the marines from a 1rst founding chapter be better than those of a 22th founding? None of them were around during the heresy, and there is nothing in the recruitment process that makes more talented recruits join 1rst founding chapter. Not to talk about how absolutely terrible it is when a setting that should encourage creativity instead pushes on your that the official chapters are inherently better than your custom-made chapter. I hate it with a passion.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Right, which is to say better equipment than they normally would be using, because their standard equipment just won't cut it.

Yeah, when going after the most senior marines with the best wargear available to their chapters, the Sisters also take their best wargear. I am at loss why you think this is a gotcha .

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Forgive me if I missed it, but what modern lore supports Sisters being able to do what you've described above?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'm sorry that you pulling fluff that is older than I am to support your erroneous assertion that Sisters are as good as or better than Marines on an individual basis isn't working for you.

Did you guys somehow miss how there was about 15 years with basically no new Sisters of Battle content? Of course the lore is going to be old, there is extremely few recent material…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, a comparatively sized force of Sisters probably wouldn't have the same war materiel as a full Astartes Chapter.

Well, that's your opinion. Mine differ. The Sisters are some kind of vanity project for the Ecclesiarchy, and the Abbess has a seat as a High Lord of Terra. Which Cardinal is going to say “Let's diminish the budget of the Sororitas”? Especially given their role as inner affairs of the Ecclesiarchy? That Cardinal better have absolutely nothing in their closet that could be used against them…

I'd have to agree with Smudge on this one. While the Ecclesiarchy has a lot of wealth there is a limit to what they can spend it on in terms of war material due to restrictions placed on them. The sisters simply aren't allowed to have military forces beyond fairly tightly defined limits (it took extended debate just for the repressor to be approved for use and that was basically an arbites rhino with a fire hose accessory).

Sisters don't get to have any kind of artillery beyond their limited number of exorcists, no aircraft or fleet support of their own, they have pretty much nothing that can meaningfully lay a siege nor do they have any really heavy linebreaker forces.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, a comparatively sized force of Sisters probably wouldn't have the same war materiel as a full Astartes Chapter.

Well, that's your opinion. Mine differ. The Sisters are some kind of vanity project for the Ecclesiarchy, and the Abbess has a seat as a High Lord of Terra. Which Cardinal is going to say “Let's diminish the budget of the Sororitas”? Especially given their role as inner affairs of the Ecclesiarchy? That Cardinal better have absolutely nothing in their closet that could be used against them…

And what about all the other branches of the High Lords who see the Ecclesiarchy massing huge amounts of power and wealth? They're just going to let that happen?

Plus, let's not forget the Ecclesiarchy budget needs to handle things like cathedral construction, relief aid, relic acquisition. Not to mention that the Sisters of Battle, the actual models on the tabletop, are a fraction of the actual Adepta Sororitas, which in itself is a fraction of the Ecclesiarchy. Unlike Space Marines, which, despite having less wealth and resources on the whole, don't have to share that with non-combatant arms of their organisation.

(Also, just to correct you, the Abbess and Cardinals of the Synod aren't guaranteed seats. And, if we're talking current timeline, I expect a lot of Ecclesiarchical power is curtailed by Guilliman.)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, and the terrifying amount of firepower and equipment a Fortress-Monastery has.

Why do y'all keep assuming this happens in the middle of the Fortress-Monastery?

Because that's where a Chapter Master spends the most of his time? If you're going to assume a Space Marine is anywhere, it's either on their own ships, or their Fortress-Monastary, same as I'd expect a Canoness to be on a Shrine World with a big old war cathedral base of operation.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The only cases I've heard of Marines "running around in confusion" are cases of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion (masters of deception and asymmetrical warfare), Daemonic incursions (and that's not even guaranteed) and things like a well-executed Necron uprising.

So, how many times have you read about Marines dealing with being attacked by Imperial forces they never suspected to be enemies, all while they found themselves unable to contact their leaders?

Quite frankly, I haven't heard that many stories about that very thing happening, and in the very few where things like that happen, they tend to regroup incredibly well (Battle of Calth and the Celestial Lions situation).

In fact, yeah, let's talk Battle of Calth. Entire comms darkness, the first ever betrayal of one Space Marine to another (at least, to the Ultramarines' perspective), en masse daemonic incursions and the entire orbital array going down. Word Bearers had every advantage afforded to them. Guilliman was vented into space, and all Ultramarines on the ground were fighting blind.

They still fought back and won.

I'm sure if you gave them a few hours to regroup they would do fine. But the whole point is, you don't.

Ask the Word Bearers how that went.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Celestial Lions didn't have their leaders targeted by "Ork snipers" - their Apothecaries were, and THEN their leaders were hit - and they still were able to rally behind a Veteran Sergeant.

Yeah, they got plenty of time to do so.

And what makes you think that Vindicare Assassins would be "*worse* at the whole destabilising command thing than Sisters? Because that's what you're implying.

Hell, if Sisters are so good at this, why bother with Assassins? Because apparently they can wipe out an entire Chapter's captaincy in the middle of their Fortress-Monastery better than the Officio Assassinorum can.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Also, marines are smart, do you really think they have their WHOLE command structure in one place to be susceptible to such attacks?

Yes. The whole point is that they don't suspect such attack.

Because Chapters aren't notoriously self-reliant and just happily accept random ships appearing over their homeworld with no questions asked?
The moment ships translate past the Mandeville point on their homeworld (unless some kind of psychic obscuring is going on - can't imagine Sisters would be too keen on that), the Marines will be noticing. Sure, it's another Imperial ship - but they're in Chapter space, without prior warning.

We aren't talking about paranoid Dark Angels here. We are talking about a chapter that has slowly evolved in a way that some Inquisitor deal troubling, but that never had any official warning and don't suspect a thing.

But they must have done SOMETHING to warrant this force to take them to heel. Chapters don't get censured for nothing. So, the moment they've done whatever can be considered heretical or censure-worthy, they'd be on high alert.

Also, regarding the "no official warning" - the Astral Claws were given more than enough warning. All of the Abyssal Crusade Chapters were given warning. Chapters aren't just blacklisted and assumed bad - there's usually SOME degree of "hey, dude, what's going on" before gloves are taken off.

They are holding a meeting in a secured zone, with lots of imperial forces around. It's as safe as can be, until the very ally they counted on for safety turn on them.
The Imperium is an unforgiving place.

Again, this is a Chapter that must have done something to raise the ire of the Imperium. They'd be folly not to be aware of that, and have some suspicion. As you say - it's an unforgiving place.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
You need to accept that this piece of fluff you are championing is flawed and makes little sense.

Ah yes, I must discard official lore and go with your head cannon.

Is lore older than many players still "official" when it's not backed up anywhere else?

All I'm saying is if it was THAT important to the Sisters' identity, it'd be in the most recent Codex. Which it might be, I don't own it!

 Melissia wrote:
At one point, Sisters did in fact have drop pod rules, but how canon they are is anyone's guess-- it was some kind of experimental rules in a white dwarf magazine, probably done more for coolness' sake than anything.

Melissia I just linked to those rules a few messages above!
Citadel journal 59, p19, link above in the thread.

Yeah - experimental rules in a super old journal.

How canon is that, exactly? Is it canon like how the Ultramarines have a half-Eldar Librarian? Or that Guilliman is still in a stasis field?

Why would the marines from a 1rst founding chapter be better than those of a 22th founding?

Resources, political clout, purer geneseed, and in certain cases, Chapters can "swap" members or reinforce a weakened First Founder in their time of need.

That's not me saying that First Founders HAVE to be better then their successors, but the deck is stacked in their favour. They may have better educators, better resources to train their troops, a stronger logistical network - these things won't change raw innate talent, but they make a hell of a difference.

For examples of rather powerful Chapters who aren't First Founders, see the Minotaurs, who can boast of having favour near to the High Lord of Terra. And look at the Feast of Blades, the duelling contest held by the Imperial Fists and their successors - if I'm not mistaken, the only two-time victor wasn't even an Imperial Fist, they were an Iron Knight.

But, this is 40k too, where simply being a rank higher makes you tougher and more accurate for some reason.

Did you guys somehow miss how there was about 15 years with basically no new Sisters of Battle content? Of course the lore is going to be old, there is extremely few recent material…

But you'd think if it was THAT important and relevant to their lore, it'd be mentioned when they *did* get new content in a brand new model line and Codex?

All I'm saying is, if it wasn't mentioned again, was it *really* that critical to their operating function?

Now, in spite of all that, I'm not saying for a second that Sisters *can't* pull off these "bring the Astartes to heel" missions. They're incredibly talented. But, that's not to say they're the ONLY ones capable of it, or even the best at it. The best, I'd say, are the Assassinorum. However, they're damn rare and unlikely to be deployed, given their scarcity.
I'd then say another Astartes Chapter - but if it's a matter of something like, say, a violation of the Imperial Creed or the Ecclesiarchy's edicts, why would a Space Marine Chapter risk their own necks for the Church?
That's where Sisters come in. They have no major allegiances outside of the Church, and so, if the Church believe the Marines to be acting out of line, that's all the proof they need. They're the CHURCHES' hit-squad, not the Imperium's as a whole, but are more reliable to actually act in the Imperium's interest, or that of an Inquisitor.

I wouldn't say they're the best at what they do. But they are the most willing to see it done.

Can I just ask, is there any official cannon that states elimination of a Chapter Master of an imperial SM force has to be handled by any sort of imperial assasination team? I am not sure but I thought in one of the assassin books it talks about how the entire High Lords have to have a unanimous vote on the use of a Space Marine force. Or at least Gman has to approve it. Which is why it was heretical that the Minotaurs were used on terra, because it violated the decree. To assasinate a Chapter Master I would think at least the Administratum, and the officio assasinorum would need to sanction it. I don't believe the Echliesiarchy gets to just willy nilly decide to take out SM chapter Masters on their own say so.

Space marine chapters are autonomous, they can choose to engage in conflicts as they please. However, there are usually thousands of year old decrees and agreements that they will defend certain areas, or have alliances with other chapters etc etc etc

A space marine chapter cannot be 'forced' to do anything, even repent for transgressions, but they can be judged to be destroyed. The high lords can request specific chapters involvement but the 'choice' the marine chapter has is but a formality, as to not appease the high lords they will be in their bad books i.e. celestial lions.

Technically an inquisitor can requisition space marine chapters/assets however it is similar to the high lords, whereas is it is an order by everything but name. It is presented as a request by the inquisitor to not tarnish he honour of the chapter, however it is a direct order. The marines involvement in the actions can still be fairly autonomous though and not complimentary to the inquisitors goals in some circumstances (The Dark Angels actions on Vrakks being a prime example). It's also why certain chapters are given a wide birth by the inquisition and would not be requisitioned unless other options were not available. Namely the space wolves who have a long standing feud with inquisitors, or for the past/potential actions of the marines in the warzone being more harm than good (Flesh Tearers, Marines Malevolent etc).

In old fluff, the high lords all had to agree to sanction the use of assassins, but in more recent fluff, sanctioning an assassin operation is formally still with the high lords, but pre-approval is given to some certain individuals, like lord inquisitors.

Space marines are supposed to be restricted in what they can do as well though.

The Horus heresy specifically showed the danger of marines having total access to all levels of warfare if they happen to go rogue.

They aren't supposed to have true artillery or aircraft, nor mainline fleet assets for fleet engagement (barges and strike cruisers are ground assault craft rather than fleet attack ships).

Of course, GW keeps ignoring this to sell more marine models, but it's not like sisters are the only ones supposed to be restricted in what they can deploy.

That fluff has always been a bit skewed though, their fleet is 'designed' to support ground engagements and boarding actions. They also are one of a very few factions in the Imperium that have access to and free sanction of exterminatus weaponry. To aid ground engagements and boarding actions the fleet is ver well armoured... They aren't meant to be good at fleet engagements but due to the requirements to be an expeditionary force, they are good at them (not the best though).

You are mistaken on the aircraft front I believe also, and the artillery. It's not that marines aren't allowed them, their form of combat didn't cater to them... Heavy artillery requires huge logistics and supply chains as well as being fairly static... That's not the marines MO, it's also the fleets role to provide artillery support to marines. Also, their lack of aircraft in earlier fluff was not due to restriction, it was more due to the versatility of the thunderhawk, it was a true multirole aircraft, and whilst it may seem ridiculous that it had an air superiority role, most aircraft back then were massive also so it wasn't all too out of place size wise.

Officially, they do not have their own space superiority fleet, though, they are good at space battles also at a push.

Well, one big restriction is travel. The Space Marines cannot "Requisition" imperial naval fleets, without incredible pushback by the administratum. They can't bring titans to bear without the Admech. They can't "take"psychers without the sanction of the lex. They are restricted in multiple ways. I am just pointing out that Assassins require high clearance to use, I am assuming their purpose "assasinations" requires some level of clearance as well. Again, every time the Echliesiarchy does something on their own volition it goes terribly wrong and ends badly. I don't think the sisters assassinating a chapter master would be "sanctioned" without extreme evidence.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And what about all the other branches of the High Lords who see the Ecclesiarchy massing huge amounts of power and wealth? They're just going to let that happen?

I just don't believe that they are invited to give their opinion on how the Ecclesiarchy designs their budget. If the Ecclesiarchy wants to spend three times the amount of money of a standard melta gun, so that their Sisters get slightly superior melta guns than what marines get, the Mechanicus won't care, they get the money. The Inquisition won't care, that won't create a power imbalance. The Guard won't care, it's just better guns for people on their side. The Administratum just won't care.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Also, just to correct you, the Abbess and Cardinals of the Synod aren't guaranteed seats.

Yeah, just regular ones. With the Ecclesiarch being a permanent one. Still.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Because that's where a Chapter Master spends the most of his time? If you're going to assume a Space Marine is anywhere, it's either on their own ships, or their Fortress-Monastary, same as I'd expect a Canoness to be on a Shrine World with a big old war cathedral base of operation.

Are we talking about the same 40k? How often do those guys end up on a battlefield? I'd say, a lot. Unlike legendary Imperial Guard commanders.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Battle of Calth

So my fluff is too old, but you are going to bring up 10 000 years old fluff .
We are not talking about purging a legion, we are talking about purging a chapter.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And what makes you think that Vindicare Assassins would be "*worse* at the whole destabilising command thing than Sisters? Because that's what you're implying.
[…]
Hell, if Sisters are so good at this, why bother with Assassins? Because apparently they can wipe out an entire Chapter's captaincy in the middle of their Fortress-Monastery better than the Officio Assassinorum can.

Oh, you can bet your ass that if the Inquisitor has access to some Assassins, they will use them on the chapter master. If they only have access to Sisters of Battle, they will use the Sisters of Battle. If they have access to both, they will use both.
Did you read the actual army list? It specifically allows for a Vindicare or a Culexus assassin!!
And the only thing that would make Sisters better here, is availability. What good is an assassin being more efficient if you can't secure one in the first place.
However, if given the choice between Sisters of Battle or Space Marines, they will usually chose Sisters of Battle, for the reason given in the Citadel Journal article.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But they must have done SOMETHING to warrant this force to take them to heel. Chapters don't get censured for nothing. So, the moment they've done whatever can be considered heretical or censure-worthy, they'd be on high alert.

Because they think they did that unnoticed, and it was a long time ago? I don't know man, are you trying to get me to write an actual novel?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Also, regarding the "no official warning" - the Astral Claws were given more than enough warning. All of the Abyssal Crusade Chapters were given warning. Chapters aren't just blacklisted and assumed bad - there's usually SOME degree of "hey, dude, what's going on" before gloves are taken off.

Different Inquisitors handle different situations differently.
Like, VERY differently. The range of possible reaction is enormous. But “create a trap for the Chapter command structure, and kill them all using Sisters of Battle drop pod attack, and then recycle or exterminate the rest of the chapter with the help of the huge forces you just requisitioned” doesn't seems out of character for one of the least tolerant Inquisitor, does it?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All I'm saying is if it was THAT important to the Sisters' identity, it'd be in the most recent Codex. Which it might be, I don't own it!
[…]But you'd think if it was THAT important and relevant to their lore, it'd be mentioned when they *did* get new content in a brand new model line and Codex?

All I'm saying is, if it wasn't mentioned again, was it *really* that critical to their operating function?

It's never been my claim that this was THAT important to the Sisters' identity. Being sometime requisitioned by Inquisitor for this specific part isn't a big part of the Sisters identity. It is, however, a good example that “No Sister could ever complete the tasks that SM's view as routine or even menial.” is wrong, with Sisters completing a task that most space marines would consider an extremely dangerous endeavor.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
How canon is that, exactly? Is it canon like how the Ultramarines have a half-Eldar Librarian? Or that Guilliman is still in a stasis field?

Unlike both, it's not in contradiction to any newer fluff, is it?
Beside, if you ask me, Guilliman is still in a stasis field. I'm not interested at all with anything that relates to after he was woken out, I hate this development and do my best to ignore it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Resources, political clout, purer geneseed[…]They may have better educators, better resources to train their troops, a stronger logistical network - these things won't change raw innate talent, but they make a hell of a difference.

Because of a difference of sometime a few hundreds years, and still present after 10 000 years?
I don't think that makes sense, AND I dislike it (which are two very different things, I admit ^^).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But, that's not to say they're the ONLY ones capable of it, or even the best at it.

That's never been something I claimed. My reading of the Citadel Journal article is that the main reason they use Sisters is because Space Marines have a loyalty problem.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd then say another Astartes Chapter - but if it's a matter of something like, say, a violation of the Imperial Creed or the Ecclesiarchy's edicts, why would a Space Marine Chapter risk their own necks for the Church?

Again, like Melissia, I don't think that's how the Ecclesiarchy would operate on their own. They are more of a “Bring overbearing force, kill their dudes, salt the earth, build massive pyres for everyone you manage to capture alive who is vaguely related to them”
Have you looked at the actual army list²? It FORCES you to take an Inquisitor as HQ.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:Space marine chapters are autonomous, they can choose to engage in conflicts as they please. However, there are usually thousands of year old decrees and agreements that they will defend certain areas, or have alliances with other chapters etc etc etc

A space marine chapter cannot be 'forced' to do anything, even repent for transgressions, but they can be judged to be destroyed. The high lords can request specific chapters involvement but the 'choice' the marine chapter has is but a formality, as to not appease the high lords they will be in their bad books i.e. celestial lions.

Technically an inquisitor can requisition space marine chapters/assets however it is similar to the high lords, whereas is it is an order by everything but name. It is presented as a request by the inquisitor to not tarnish he honour of the chapter, however it is a direct order. The marines involvement in the actions can still be fairly autonomous though and not complimentary to the inquisitors goals in some circumstances (The Dark Angels actions on Vrakks being a prime example). It's also why certain chapters are given a wide birth by the inquisition and would not be requisitioned unless other options were not available. Namely the space wolves who have a long standing feud with inquisitors, or for the past/potential actions of the marines in the warzone being more harm than good (Flesh Tearers, Marines Malevolent etc).

In old fluff, the high lords all had to agree to sanction the use of assassins, but in more recent fluff, sanctioning an assassin operation is formally still with the high lords, but pre-approval is given to some certain individuals, like lord inquisitors.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:That fluff has always been a bit skewed though, their fleet is 'designed' to support ground engagements and boarding actions. They also are one of a very few factions in the Imperium that have access to and free sanction of exterminatus weaponry. To aid ground engagements and boarding actions the fleet is ver well armoured... They aren't meant to be good at fleet engagements but due to the requirements to be an expeditionary force, they are good at them (not the best though).

You are mistaken on the aircraft front I believe also, and the artillery. It's not that marines aren't allowed them, their form of combat didn't cater to them... Heavy artillery requires huge logistics and supply chains as well as being fairly static... That's not the marines MO, it's also the fleets role to provide artillery support to marines. Also, their lack of aircraft in earlier fluff was not due to restriction, it was more due to the versatility of the thunderhawk, it was a true multirole aircraft, and whilst it may seem ridiculous that it had an air superiority role, most aircraft back then were massive also so it wasn't all too out of place size wise.

Officially, they do not have their own space superiority fleet, though, they are good at space battles also at a push.

The space marine's native artillery groups were stripped during the breaking of the legion because the reorganization and re-envisioning of their role in the Imperium's military evaluated tube artillery wasn't required for them to perform it. However, the envisioning of their role and the breaking of the legions was primarily to limit the power and capability of the Space Marines as an organization, so indirectly tube artillery is banned to them to keep them deliberately less capable than the Imperial Guard.

The Sisters are probably competing only with the AdMech for being the strongest military organization in the Imperium because of their general exemption from the various policies that were set in place at the end of the Heresy to deliberately cripple the other branches.

Space Marines are a self-contained expeditionary task group designed to be logistically light to operate, with integrated fleet and air support, who can use their superior density of offensive power to prove decisive at the center of gravity of an operation. However, they're also limited in numbers and severely restricted in what types of equipment they have access to so that they can't do anything else. They're good at mobile warfare, but taking and holding ground isn't really in the cards with only 1000 men. And with limited access to key capabilities, they're not sufficient versatile in the types of operations they can efficiently undertake. Should a Space Marine chapter go rogue or stage a coup, they wouldn't get very far beyond their immediate homeworld power base, and even for the largest, they'd be forced by the Guard and Navy to fight on far more fronts than they can wage a war on so even if they win in one place the Guard won in every other one.

The Imperial Guard has the strength and equipment to effect a planetary conquest on it's own, but is logistically heavy to operate and not a self-contained strike package. It's wholly dependent upon the Imperial Navy for supply, transport, and air support. Each regiment is also overspecialized in the vein of late 20's and 30's ideas about armored formations, to prevent both single IG regiments from being effective alone. If an IG army group were to go rogue or attempt a coup, it would be stranded and unsupplied of war materiel by the Imperial Navy and methodically dismantled from the top by the Space Marines with surgical strikes against it's leadership until it's forced to surrender.

The Imperial Navy has superior capital warships [supposedly, according to the lore, since SM are barred from mounting lance batteries], but have limited surface strike capacity since they can't mount bombardment cannons and have to rely on bombers and fighters. In addition, they have no native landing troops , so they can't effect a planetary conquest in their own right. If a Navy Task Force were to go rogue or attempt a coup, it would find itself unable to take any ground from the Imperial Guard and be limited in its ability to resupply short of raiding, and be run down by the Space Marines.


However, on the other hand, the Sisters we created far later and by the Ecclesiarchy, the single most powerful organization in the Imperium who is defacto bound by no rules, to serve as personal troops and enforcers. By not being there during the breaking of the Imperial military, they're effectively passed over in the ancient accords that divided and crippled the other three military organizations. The treaty that supposedly limits their power bans them from existing, so it obviously has no teeth since both the clout of the Ecclesiarchy, good standing of their founding saints, and general heritage basically says they get to ignore that. A Sisters order controls it's own industrial sites [that was the whole deal with the Exorcist back when blast weapons were blasts and having random shots was because they weren't manufactured and maintained by the AdMech], their troops are very elite and well equipped and can undertake any operational assignment a Space Marine expeditionary force could, and they have Legion strength or greater to wage full scale war indigenously. And IIRC as per the newest codex, though it isn't on me to confirm, they also have Order Fleets, though they're not technically supposed to, but they're not really supposed to be a full scale military force anyway so like it's not like they care. And even before that they had ships that were officially Navy but unofficially theirs in the novels.

Their only real equal-capability organization is the Ad Mech, who has the advantage of more and officially sanctioned ships, [and better working stuff since their engineers have actual relevant training], but somewhat lower quality of troops and not having the same political power that the Ecclesiarchy has.

Much like a forge world going traitor en-masse is really bad for the Imperium, a Sisters order going rogue en-masse would be a far worse problem than a Guard, Marines, or Navy task group going rogue.



As far as the Space Marine's political power goes, they're de jure outranked by other Imperial organizations but de facto they're effectively independent organizations - limited by their standing and heritage and connections. The Space Wolves can do whatever they want: they're a first founding chapter of great reknown, there's nothing that anyone can do and if a Space Wolf asks you do do something he has the practical level of support that you really should go along, even if an Inquisitor has de jure power over them. A Lamenter on the other hand, doesn't really have the clout to contest, so they'd be subject to whetever edicts the Inquisition or High Lords might enforce on them.

If meltaguns can kill Space Marines and Chapter Masters, then Sisters can kill Space Marines and Chapter Masters.

Plus, we know that they're deployed successfully against Chaos Space Marines.

I'd be curious to know what their fleet assets are like, but like Space Marines, it probably varies considerably.

SM's aren't banned from having Lance weaponry.

Examples:
IF Giant Floating Death Palace that took out a Blackstone Fortress(Can't remember the name)
Minotaurs have Daedulus Crata, which is basically the same thing but made pre-HH and is even bigger than the IF one.

Gman's personal ship has lance batteries.
The Claw of Russ has Lance batteries, or had. It's toast now.

Actually Here: Anything Battleship or above has Lance batteries.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Vessels_(List)

Nope I am wrong. Space marines only have one vessel with Lance batteries. My mistakes.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Frigate

heh, nvm. (was posting about the Nova Class Frigate)

I think we can assume that Space Marines have Lance capability in a ground support function, since obviously they appear in 40K and in Epic in the past. But ground support Lances can be very different from anti-capital-ship Lances that are meant to engage targets at hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the ranges in which BFG operates.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
SM's aren't banned from having Lance weaponry.

Examples:
IF Giant Floating Death Palace that took out a Blackstone Fortress(Can't remember the name)
Minotaurs have Daedulus Crata, which is basically the same thing but made pre-HH and is even bigger than the IF one.

Gman's personal ship has lance batteries.
The Claw of Russ has Lance batteries, or had. It's toast now.

Actually Here: Anything Battleship or above has Lance batteries.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Vessels_(List)

Nope I am wrong. Space marines only have one vessel with Lance batteries. My mistakes.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Frigate

Yeah. the Nova is the only ship authorized to carry Lances in the TO&E of Space Marines post legion-breaking.

However, Space Marine Chapter did get to retain ships from before the breaking of the legion, and unlike the Mogami-class cruisers, nobody was planning to convert them when they were laid down, so old SM ships may also have lances.

Going by BFG rules the Bombardment Cannon is better than a lance weapon, and every SM capital ship is loaded with those. There's also the aforementioned Nova and the Firestorm (Astartes fleets do field Navy frigates with Astartes crew).

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
SM's aren't banned from having Lance weaponry.

Examples:
IF Giant Floating Death Palace that took out a Blackstone Fortress(Can't remember the name)
Minotaurs have Daedulus Crata, which is basically the same thing but made pre-HH and is even bigger than the IF one.

Gman's personal ship has lance batteries.
The Claw of Russ has Lance batteries, or had. It's toast now.

Actually Here: Anything Battleship or above has Lance batteries.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Vessels_(List)

Nope I am wrong. Space marines only have one vessel with Lance batteries. My mistakes.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Frigate

This is great, also do you have a source for those statement you made and then didn't back up? What about those Custodes slaughtering Sisters of Battle during the Age of Blood?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

This is great, also do you have a source for those statement you made and then didn't back up? What about those Custodes slaughtering Sisters of Battle during the Age of Blood?

It's in the quote, there's just the BFG ship with capital class Lance capability: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Frigate

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

This is great, also do you have a source for those statement you made and then didn't back up? What about those Custodes slaughtering Sisters of Battle during the Age of Blood?

It's in the quote, there's just the BFG ship with capital class Lance capability: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Frigate

Also, I can't find any lexicanum articles about it, but "lance batteries" are described in Watchers of the throne:Reagent's shadow as all over the Daedalus Crata and Phalanx.

A.T. wrote:
Sisters don't get to have any kind of artillery beyond their limited number of exorcists, no aircraft or fleet support of their own, they have pretty much nothing that can meaningfully lay a siege nor do they have any really heavy linebreaker forces.

I would be very careful with such argument. Sisters of Battle don't have flyers or other artillery than the Exorcist, no superheavy, etc because they were left to rot for 15 years and GW just now gave them a breath of life. They didn't use to have power sword wielding jump pack equipped troops, now they do. In two years, GW might give the Sisters retroactively every single tool you just mentionned. Space Marines didn't used to have centurion armors or anti-air tanks or flyers before 6th eddition and now they do.

epronovost wrote:
In two years, GW might give the Sisters retroactively every single tool you just mentionned

Anything could happen. But until it does we can only go what we have.