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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




So, what's actually good about the brotherhoods? It seems people are liking Swords, Rapier, Prescient, and Ward, but what is it about each of these that's actually wanted?

For swords it's the stratagem and the spell, but not the warlord trait? Is it the same with Rapier? Is the +1A spell worth more than Hammerhand? I know you can use a strat to combo them, but it seems that that spell overlaps with Hammerhand a bit. With Prescient, I like the universality of the stratagem but it doesn't seem as powerful as the others.

I'm trying to pin down a brotherhood and when comparing them it would help to know what parts of the brotherhood I should actually be using and which parts aren't relevant to the comparison.
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




UK

Iggy88 wrote:
So, what's actually good about the brotherhoods? It seems people are liking Swords, Rapier, Prescient, and Ward, but what is it about each of these that's actually wanted?

For swords it's the stratagem and the spell, but not the warlord trait? Is it the same with Rapier? Is the +1A spell worth more than Hammerhand? I know you can use a strat to combo them, but it seems that that spell overlaps with Hammerhand a bit. With Prescient, I like the universality of the stratagem but it doesn't seem as powerful as the others.

I'm trying to pin down a brotherhood and when comparing them it would help to know what parts of the brotherhood I should actually be using and which parts aren't relevant to the comparison.

For Rapiers hammerhand is generally much better than +1A, but there are very good units that do not have access to hammerhand. A lot of successful tourny lists so far have featured multiple units of Rapiers Interceptors, who can easily cross vast distances in a turn using their move/shoot/move power, and then next turn when things get close they can combo the Rapiers +1A power and exploding hits strat.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




So the question is whether I want to give my Interceptors +1A and exploding 6s to hit in melee or give my DKs +1 to hit and +1 to wound with ranged attacks? I'm guessing the Prescient strat isn't as good as either, but has more opportunities to be useful (melee and shooting as well as being useful for any unit).

Do I have that right?

What I'd like to do is pick something that helps to balance the army's effectiveness in the shooting and fight phases. I feel like the army is quite powerful in the fight phase, and the shooting phase could use a bit of a buff. I think the buffs to the DKs hitting and wounding in the shooting phase would pair nicely with some of the other things that are basically auto-includes, like Tide of Convergence and Empyric Amplification. I could put Empyric Amplification on my GMNDK, teleport within 12" of an enemy, Mark it for Death and use Empyric Amplification, then hit it with another unit with Empyric Lodestone and, with Tide of Convergence, my other DKs could light it up.

That feels like it has more going for it than buffing the interceptors, particularly because the army feels like it struggles to reliably take down tough targets from a distance and the Sword stuff helps to fix that. Whereas they're already very powerful in melee.

I also think, even though Swords mostly only affects vehicles, the fact that it's not a buff to my own units but a debuff to enemy units, it makes it easier to MSU the army and still be able to enhance multiple units. Marked for Death could even be a convenient way to cancel out the movement penalty for moving PAGKs with psycannons.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Both Swordbearers and Rapiers can be good, but look at the Warp Charge values. Even Gate of Infinity isn't nearly as guaranteed as it used to be. Swordbearers are good against large units, whether vehicles or big squads of like Terminators. You can pick one thing and really be fairly sure it will die. That doesn't do much if the opponent is running MSU.

There have been people who did really well with other Brotherhoods that leaned more into the utility abilities like redeploys and getting extra CP. It seems to be down to individual preference, with Rapiers being easier to use but not necessarily the most effective overall.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Both Swordbearers and Rapiers are decent.
The first is for shooty boost and the second for melee support.
As GK are equipped with both decent shooty and melee weapons, the choice is more personal preference and play style.
I usually like to keep the enemy at arm's length and go for the (melee) kill if enough softened up.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I feel like I'm probably going to want to use Swordbearers to buff the DK shooting, especially since the spell practically turns the heavy psycannons into lascannons, 2+ wounding t7 vehicles/monsters and 3+ wounding t8 stuff. And since the DKs and infantry have Hammerhand for melee. I plan to have almost 800 points worth of DKs, while my Interceptors would only be about 500 points worth of my army. It was helpful to note that the debuffs won't work as well against MSU enemies, but I feel like anything that would be super tough and hard to destroy would already be a single model, whether the enemy is MSU or not. I imagine the rest of the army would be strong enough to take down targets that aren't super tough now that the heavy psycannons are s8 instead of s7.

Ideally, I would like a brotherhood that helps with more universal/utility stuff, but I don't feel like I'd be able to effectively utilize redeployment and I think the Prescient rerolling 1s for hitting and wounding overlaps too much with auras and Hammerhand. I like the Fatal Precog spell, but I don't know how practical it would be given that it's 12". I feel like if I'm within 12" of an enemy I'd rather be casting Hammerhand.

My new list only has 2 characters, GMNDK and Librarian, which is enough to include all of the spells that I feel I absolutely want to include: Gate, Empyric Amplification, Sanctuary, and Warp Shaping. I'm wondering how to best organize those 4 spells between the two characters. I want to make sure that the Librarian has the correct spells to make the Gem worth giving to him and not be wasted. I'm thinking Gate and Sanctuary on the Librarian, since they both have 18" range and he'll be the slowest guy in the army, and because I can see both of those spells wanting to be cast practically every turn. And then I can give the GMNDK Empyric Amplification and Warp Shaping, since I'll only want to cast Warp Shaping once or twice, and I'll want to cast Empyric Amplification when he's within in range but can still use Smite when he's not in range. These spells definitely feel hard to get off, warp charge 7 without +1 to cast isn't super reliable. Are people using CP nearly every psychic phase to ensure the spells go off?
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

My new list only has 2 characters, GMNDK and Librarian, which is enough to include all of the spells that I feel I absolutely want to include: Gate, Empyric Amplification, Sanctuary, and Warp Shaping. I'm wondering how to best organize those 4 spells between the two characters. I want to make sure that the Librarian has the correct spells to make the Gem worth giving to him and not be wasted. I'm thinking Gate and Sanctuary on the Librarian, since they both have 18" range and he'll be the slowest guy in the army, and because I can see both of those spells wanting to be cast practically every turn. And then I can give the GMNDK Empyric Amplification and Warp Shaping, since I'll only want to cast Warp Shaping once or twice, and I'll want to cast Empyric Amplification when he's within in range but can still use Smite when he's not in range. These spells definitely feel hard to get off, warp charge 7 without +1 to cast isn't super reliable. Are people using CP nearly every psychic phase to ensure the spells go off?

Instead of a Librarian I use Draigo for Sanctuary, Gate, and Warp Shaping,
while the GMNDK gets Empyric Amplification and Vortex of Doom.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in it
Fresh-Faced New User




Iggy88 wrote:

My new list only has 2 characters, GMNDK and Librarian, which is enough to include all of the spells that I feel I absolutely want to include: Gate, Empyric Amplification, Sanctuary, and Warp Shaping. I'm wondering how to best organize those 4 spells between the two characters. I want to make sure that the Librarian has the correct spells to make the Gem worth giving to him and not be wasted. I'm thinking Gate and Sanctuary on the Librarian, since they both have 18" range and he'll be the slowest guy in the army, and because I can see both of those spells wanting to be cast practically every turn. And then I can give the GMNDK Empyric Amplification and Warp Shaping, since I'll only want to cast Warp Shaping once or twice, and I'll want to cast Empyric Amplification when he's within in range but can still use Smite when he's not in range. These spells definitely feel hard to get off, warp charge 7 without +1 to cast isn't super reliable. Are people using CP nearly every psychic phase to ensure the spells go off?


The Gem is a one-use thing like most visions/gifts. Think of it like a souped-up Warpstone Token from Fantasy Skavens if you will.
So it's good for the crucial turn but in general what I do is use the 3-dice cast stratagem on someone that's going to put out two important powers (the Grandmaster Amplyfing something after shunting or draigo casting Sanctuary on my 10-men Interceptors), especially if there are enemy denies in range, and save the Gate-fling CP reroll for the guy in the back outside deny range.
Warp Shaping is a one-time-only power in almost all games which is why i like to keep it on Draigo as he casts 2 but knows 3 powers.

Your main amplification should be the Grandmaster since he will be in your opponent's face as long as he's alive and with the rangeboost+ his 9" of movment + Not giving a feth about being out in the open he can make sure you drop it wherever you want. Librarian as a second power carrier isn't terrible but I don't feel like he's going to be in crucial positions that often. Unless he tries to Gate+Amplify something in an heroic sacrifice.


As for Rapiers vs Precient I'd like to point out that in order to give +1A all around you'd need to either be in the worst tide from the previous turn (so no shadows) or skipping going into Convergence (so no mortal wounds) so it's not as widespread as it seems.
And the prescient stratagem actually gives you more wounds on your target (and more reliability) if you don't have access to rerolls because of positioning/opportunity/Hammerhandless-unit. While the table is small and draigo rerolls are juicy, we must be sure that our trades go trough favourably and therefore the "safer" option of "let's just make sure i don't get screwed over by rolling 10 ones on these 16 attack rolls" is, imoh, the best way to go with this type of army.
And this comes from an Imperial Guard player, where the mindset is "who cares if this demolisher missed all his shots, I brought 7 more exactly for these scenarios)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/24 15:25:34


 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws






Is there EVER a good reason to give PAGK or Termies any special weapon other than Psycannons? They've always just felt so much more useful than the other two that I'm straining for a reason to ever give a unit Incinerators and especially Psilencers.

MAYBE a 10-man unit of Purifiers I'd give 4 Incinerators to, but anything else, I don't think so...

GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants" 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




UK

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Is there EVER a good reason to give PAGK or Termies any special weapon other than Psycannons? They've always just felt so much more useful than the other two that I'm straining for a reason to ever give a unit Incinerators and especially Psilencers.

MAYBE a 10-man unit of Purifiers I'd give 4 Incinerators to, but anything else, I don't think so...

Not sure if it is a good enough reason, but as bit of a benchmark a Psilencer Purgation squad and Judicar with generic 2 damage nemesis weapon is the same points cost as Intercessors with a 2 damage power fist Sergeant. Both units can fight about the same, but the intercessors would have to stack tactical doctrine, the 2cp rapid fire stratagem and be carrying auto bolt rifles to put out a similar volume of strength 4 ap-1 shots. They seem like an ok unit to just have sitting around on objectives or doing psychic actions, occasionally benefitting from empyric amplification or psychic onslaught if you have no better options available.

For any other units, I'd be a bit hard pressed to justify it though, often even the Psycannon is a tough sell.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Iggy88 wrote:
So, what's actually good about the brotherhoods? It seems people are liking Swords, Rapier, Prescient, and Ward, but what is it about each of these that's actually wanted?

For swords it's the stratagem and the spell, but not the warlord trait? Is it the same with Rapier? Is the +1A spell worth more than Hammerhand? I know you can use a strat to combo them, but it seems that that spell overlaps with Hammerhand a bit. With Prescient, I like the universality of the stratagem but it doesn't seem as powerful as the others.

I'm trying to pin down a brotherhood and when comparing them it would help to know what parts of the brotherhood I should actually be using and which parts aren't relevant to the comparison.

You make a real good point. The brotherhoods are a very very minor thing. Were talking about a stratagem you might use once or twice in a game instead of other stratagems which are very good / A spell you will almost never use (hammerhand and smite are usually better options) and a warlord trait (some of which are bad and most situational and or have an opportunity cost).

Id say Persistent Brethren has the most benefit. it can buff an isolated dreadknights shooting for essentially free every turn (when you factor in the warlord trait - which is the reason you take this brotherhood). It's also good for allowing you to spam your other offensive stratagems as well. The spell is really not great but if your smites are high you might consider casting it?

Swordbearers main appeal is it the +1 to wound spell. Which while good - only affects other vehicles and has a 12" cast range. So who is gonna cast this power - your GMDK? Well he was already probably casting emperyic amp...Which honestly that target was already getting a lot of heat anyways...not really seeing the need for this? The +1 to hit stratagem is just too expensive to even consider IMO. Warlord trait is terrible.

Raipiers looks great on paper but ifs not like you are struggling for melee damage. plus with MSU the exploding 6's doesn't really hit that hard anyways. power is weaker than hammerhand and WL trait is garbo.

In any case...I really doubt any of this is going to make or break you. And they are all situational.

Wardmakers I initially thought was the weakest of them but it's kinda growing into my default. As the only thing that really scares me is my powers being denied or losing a crucial power for the rest of the game. The Warlord trait for 8+ to cast is undeniable is very good for a GMDK casting empyric. The spell can be situationally awesome vs some armies and the stratagem allows you to actually consider taking warpshaping in your list and take real advantage of the tides. It took experience to figure this out. Then again my main opponent does play a lot of TS.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I am wondering about the viability of allying, specifically with Imperial Guard. The Brotherhoods just don't seem very appealing. They're not useless, but they don't feel essential. I would, however, lose access to the Tides. Those are the only things that I'd lose if I allied with Guard, right?

I definitely don't want to be a Guard player with Grey Knight allies; I'd want to be a Grey Knight player with Guard added to the force, mostly for bodies, objective campers, and long range firepower.

It seems like most people aren't taking Warp Shaping and are just sitting in either Convergence or Shadows for the whole game. So is losing +1 armor save & -1 to hit, or +6" range and mortal wounds on 6s in melee worth exchanging for some guardsmen and tanks?

Also, if I took roughly 50% of my army as Guard, would that allow me to deep strike my entire GK force?

I don't play super competitively, but how much worse would my army be if I decided to ally with Guard instead of staying pure?
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Iggy88 wrote:
I am wondering about the viability of allying, specifically with Imperial Guard. The Brotherhoods just don't seem very appealing. They're not useless, but they don't feel essential. I would, however, lose access to the Tides. Those are the only things that I'd lose if I allied with Guard, right?

I definitely don't want to be a Guard player with Grey Knight allies; I'd want to be a Grey Knight player with Guard added to the force, mostly for bodies, objective campers, and long range firepower.

It seems like most people aren't taking Warp Shaping and are just sitting in either Convergence or Shadows for the whole game. So is losing +1 armor save & -1 to hit, or +6" range and mortal wounds on 6s in melee worth exchanging for some guardsmen and tanks?

Also, if I took roughly 50% of my army as Guard, would that allow me to deep strike my entire GK force?

I don't play super competitively, but how much worse would my army be if I decided to ally with Guard instead of staying pure?

Not that much worse. Take Strike squads in rhinos and you pretty much lose nothing of value for your GK portion of the army. You wont have the 6's in melee being mortals (doesn't matter - strike squads still win in combat vs pretty much everything that isn't wyches) The rhinos weren't getting tides of shadows anyways. All you lose is some access to stratagems from brotherhoods. However you still have access to a host of excellent stratagems. Guard aren't particularly strong at antitank though or anything - so you are just adding in weaker units at this point.

If I was gonna bring an ally with GK. It would be admech with lazer chickens (whats stupid is you would still get ALL your admech rules lol).

Or perhaps - take Imperial knights and spam armigers.

I am toying with the idea of bringing Gman with GK. He has a 12" +1 to charge and reroll 1's to hit for all imperium so strike squads deep striking get a lot out of it.
   
Made in gb
I'll Be Back



United Kingdom

Well

I just played against Nurgle Daemons army and got mullahed. We are not the Daemon killer we used to be. Only 1 model (Draigo) any good against daemons and although we have 1 tide just cannot do much against them.

Played a 2k game as follows

Kaldor
Grand Master
Brother Captain

2 x 5 Terminators
1 x 5 SS
10 Interceptors
10 Purifiers
Dreadnought
2 x Dreadknights with Greatsword. 1 had heavy psycannon and the other had a gatling psilencer.

The amount of recover wounds characters, disgustingly resilient saves he made was a joke and then for 2cp whatever I killed he could bring back how do you beat that?

 
   
Made in pl
Been Around the Block




The problem is not army itself, but more like your list. Terminators are bad, purifires are worse than interceptors, grand master should be in Nemesis dreadknights.
We have plenty of tools to deal with daemons.
All psi-silencer and stormbolter shots are super efficient in killing their infantry.
Psycannons with empyric amplification and nemesis weapons are super efficient at killing their multiple wound models.
On top of that we have access to army wide good save which they will struggle to break becouse they dont have much of good ap in their weapons.
Just build army list better, start somewhere around GMNDK and 3 NDK all with both psycannons and psisilencers, get a techmarine and some mixture of strike marines, interceptors and buffing heroes.
You will do much better
   
 
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