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 Overread wrote:

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:


The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….

Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.

That was part of my point. The other part is that in the quest for all that hobby money GW does not care what impact the narrative of 40k has on our society as a cultural construct.

Fantasy/scifi authors rely on their readers being able to separate reality from fiction. Which typically is something most people learn before they are teenagers.



Seriously people we are not far off starting to justify that GW is going to make us all hyper violent war crazed maniacs. You know the whole "video games make you violent" stuff has been debunked more than enough times. Are we REALLY going ot now swing back to say that "video games are fine, but those violent miniature games" are the real source of the problem?

I specifically said I was not going down the Satanic Panic route, that I am not a pacifist, and that escapism with toy soldiers does not need to be harmful.

Understanding the intent of satire is not the same thing as understanding the difference between reality and fiction.

 Tyran wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Plus, unlike real world bigots, the things the Ecclesiarchy warn you against actually will, given half a chance, eat your children and tut at your Nana.

Not really no, the Ecclesiarchy says nothing about Daemons or Tyranids. Before the Great Rift knowledge about Daemons was potentially a heresy by itself. The Ecclesiarchy talks about Xenos and heretics in general, but it doesn't get into details, it doesn't differentiate between a Craftworld Eldar or a Tyranid, because if it did then people may start to question the need to get into fights with Craftworlds when Hive Fleets are a thing.

Propaganda needs a scary enemy that can be paradoxically easily beaten, making people aware that Daemons and Tyranids are likely going to eat their children and they cannot really do anything about it because these are predators that operate at far greater scales than individual worlds, much less individual humans, is bad propaganda.

Which is why so much is hidden from even The Imperial Guard, at least through training.

Chaos Cults exist, and unlike the Satanic Panic, actually will do human sacrifice for profit and power. Or, aha, Prophet and Power. I didn’t say anything about specific Xenos race in my post. And neither does the Ecclesiarchy. Just “The Xenos”.

And will this mainstream 40k show be able to adequately address the topics raised in this thread, by folks familiar with the IP, for the general public?

And that is not even considering the other possibility, that it tries to soften the satirical Grimdark and we end up with superficially heroic Space Marine defenders of humanity.

Is the sacrifice of the Astral Knights really heroic if they are following genetic programming and psychological conditioning?

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
And will this mainstream 40k show be able to adequately address the topics raised in this thread, by folks familiar with the IP, for the general public?

I think something as faithful to the themes of the original work as The Boys was would be the best outcome, but as GW is most likely looking at this to be good advertisement for mainstream viewers to perhaps want to engage with the IP on a deeper level, I suspect that to be a fairly unlikely end result myself. This is, potentially, 40k's "big break", and them producing something that's too harrowing, disturbing or political could faceplant the whole thing at the first hurdle.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.

War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.

For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.

But are alien threats only defeated through draconian, authoritarian religious fundamentalism?

Yes, because you can't negotiate with Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines/Daemons and Necrons without actually being worse off for it. You also can't negotiate with Tyranids at all. Eldar is a half/half.

So basically you'd only have luck with Tau.

And Nicassar… And Kroot… And Vespid… and Tarellians, Jokaero, Zoat, Galg, Oretti, Donarathi, Eldar Exodites, Ynnari, Pisceans, Kin…

The point is, plenty of species in the galaxy willing to cooperate or with a history of past alliances. Also don’t forget the large amount of Beastmen, Abhumans and mutants that probably would be more cooperative if the Imperium didn’t either cull them or consider them second-class citizens.

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
And will this mainstream 40k show be able to adequately address the topics raised in this thread, by folks familiar with the IP, for the general public?

And that is not even considering the other possibility, that it tries to soften the satirical Grimdark and we end up with superficially heroic Space Marine defenders of humanity.

Is the sacrifice of the Astral Knights really heroic if they are following genetic programming and psychological conditioning?

It shouldn't be hard to address the most crucial points of the setting right away. They will have to do some sort of 5-minute expositional intro like in LOTR to establish the setting for the general public. It will contain a description of what the Imperium is and what it does, which should speak for itself.
For Space Marines, that's a bit more difficult I feel, because they are shining super warriors at face value. It's also where a lot of the real meat of 40k lies though, so I'm hoping that there will be some exploration of what SM really are and how it relates to their humanity.

As much as people wants to paint Space Marines as this horrible thing, they aren't anymore the police of the original Rogue Trader Imperium.

In the scale of warhammer 40k they are some of the more moral thing the imperium has. Warriors that don't normally engage with civilian population (With the exception of some chapters) to do any kind of loathsome or represive actions, that dedicates their entire lives to fight the worse stuff (Those you can kill without any moral dilema) humanity has to face.

Yes. They are children warriors... just like the rest of the Imperium. They aren't worse in that regard.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Just go watch "The Boys" on Amazon.

That is how 40k should be done by Amazon.

This show isn’t being “done” by Amazon. They are just money and distributors really.
Vertigo is the key. Look at Bates Motel and The Stand for recent shows by them. Most other things they’ve done I know in film world are horror films and such.

The boys is Point Grey and Sony who actually made it.
High Castle was Big Light.
And so on.

Where we watch it is always somewhat secondary in that sense. Obviously not saying that Amazon have no input, as the production company is a thing. But their production on their original programming is a lot more limited.

Same for Netflix and all other streamers etc, well and for tv channels as well for like CBS and so on..

 BertBert wrote:
They will have to do some sort of 5-minute expositional intro like in LOTR to establish the setting for the general public. It will contain a description of what the Imperium is and what it does, which should speak for itself.

If they're gonna do a Fellowship of the Ring opening, they've gotta adapt the classic:

Danny76 wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Just go watch "The Boys" on Amazon.

That is how 40k should be done by Amazon.

This show isn’t being “done” by Amazon. They are just money and distributors really.
Vertigo is the key. Look at Bates Motel and The Stand for recent shows by them. Most other things they’ve done I know in film world are horror films and such.

The boys is Point Grey and Sony who actually made it.
High Castle was Big Light.
And so on.

Where we watch it is always somewhat secondary in that sense. Obviously not saying that Amazon have no input, as the production company is a thing. But their production on their original programming is a lot more limited.

Same for Netflix and all other streamers etc, well and for tv channels as well for like CBS and so on..

All true, but I'm speaking more to the "there are no good guys" theme of the show.

All the characters are good or bad depending on your take and the situation.

Basically the only "good" people are the background people that don't deserve what happens to them while everyone else is fighting for control.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Nothing to worry about, as you do it through allegory. Because 40K is a satire.

Plus, unlike real world bigots, the things the Ecclesiarchy warn you against actually will, given half a chance, eat your children and tut at your Nana.

It's like people can't see the trees thru the forest. SATIRE is the foundation of all the good things in 40k. Somehow, somewhere people lost the plot of it.

The sheer preposterous nature of the setting shoulda been a clue, but apparently people need a thunderhammer rather than a pickpocket.

Naw I'm pretty sure some are just arguing for the sake of having an argument. They've just billed for an all evening argument not the 5 minute one.

Racerguy180 wrote:

It's like people can't see the trees thru the forest. SATIRE is the foundation of all the good things in 40k. Somehow, somewhere people lost the plot of it.

The sheer preposterous nature of the setting shoulda been a clue, but apparently people need a thunderhammer rather than a pickpocket.

It's unlikely the show/film/whatever that comes out of this deal will be a satire first and foremost. It may have some satirical elements, but I don't think it's going to be the major tone element.

Satire does not need to be funny or blatant...

The Astronomicon is an actual Lighthouse for sailing the (literal) Season of Madness.
Thousands of a specific minority(human) are sacrificed purposefully each day to keep (literal) daemons from pouring out of a tear in reality on Terra.
An extra-galactic ravenous maw(metaphorical) is closing in upon the Milky Way and what we've seen so far pales in comparison to what awaits..
An ancient cybernetic race is awenking from its long slumber to assert dominion upon which they had previously owned, irrespective of current claims to said "property".
A fungal infection that doesn't necessarily want to kill but but would rather just keep kicking your ass over and over again cuz it's fun.
I could go on but each of those examples are satire when viewed with current "sensibilities"

I mean sure or Necrons are just what you get when your creative staff watches Stargate and Terminator back to back.

 Overread wrote:
I mean sure or Necrons are just what you get when your creative staff watches Stargate and Terminator back to back.

That's an accurate descriptor. I prefer Necron Raiders but that's just me. Tomb Kings in space never did anything for me

I will say this, given my love/hate relationship with 40k… I wish Cavill to consult with Dr. Mathias over on Lead Adventure on how to create a vision of life in the 40k Imperium.

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=102436.735

The thing is you look at the Amazon involvement and have an involuntary bowel movement.

Henry Cavill has always been a great advocate for the hobby and has staunch respect for the fandom and the lore I cant see him doing it injustice and would sooner walk away then feth it up.

The fact that we are getting live action Warhammer on a budget should be enough that its being handled by a guy who plays the game and loves the lore. Tbh and Discourse gaming made a great point that this is just an annoucement JUST that it has to go through multiple drafts, Casting calls, schedule checks. Does he go with hollywood actors or does he go with unknowns? what effects house does he go with? what era does he set it in? does he go with what everyone who knows him thinks he will? or does he go with something else? like Era Indomitus or the Plague Wars? or does he make it a inquisitor series focusing on the secret war? hell he may even go with a four series quad trilogy Unification Wars,Great Crusade,Horus Heresy,The Scouring/Era Imperium...

We just DONT know...

Racerguy180 wrote:
Satire does not need to be funny or blatant...

The Astronomicon is an actual Lighthouse for sailing the (literal) Season of Madness.
Thousands of a specific minority(human) are sacrificed purposefully each day to keep (literal) daemons from pouring out of a tear in reality on Terra.
An extra-galactic ravenous maw(metaphorical) is closing in upon the Milky Way and what we've seen so far pales in comparison to what awaits..
An ancient cybernetic race is awenking from its long slumber to assert dominion upon which they had previously owned, irrespective of current claims to said "property".
A fungal infection that doesn't necessarily want to kill but but would rather just keep kicking your ass over and over again cuz it's fun.
I could go on but each of those examples are satire when viewed with current "sensibilities"

I'm sorry, but what are those examples supposed to satirise? Obviously the Orks themselves could be seen as satire, although they're both funny AND blatant about it, but the rest?

From a personal perspective I think this will be bad for the Warhammer universe.

The action figures, chibis and scented candles were bad enough, add a most likely cringe filled live action tie in and this will likely be another nail of soulless corporatism to add to its coffin.

How have the action figures, candles and such hurt the franchise? I mean really?

The rules are the same as ever; the models are still awesome; the paintwork is great; the lore and stories the same.

I've not really seen any harm with the merch. IF anything most people like it. They just engage with different parts. Some love the action toys, some the plushies, some like the wallets and bowls.


Plus all the merch and such costs GW 0. Actually it doesn't just cost them 0 it generates money for them!

 BalerionTheBlackDread wrote:


The fact that we are getting live action Warhammer on a budget should be enough that its being handled by a guy who plays the game and loves the lore. Tbh and Discourse gaming made a great point that this is just an annoucement JUST that it has to go through multiple drafts, Casting calls, schedule checks. Does he go with hollywood actors or does he go with unknowns? what effects house does he go with? what era does he set it in? does he go with what everyone who knows him thinks he will? or does he go with something else? like Era Indomitus or the Plague Wars? or does he make it a inquisitor series focusing on the secret war? hell he may even go with a four series quad trilogy Unification Wars,Great Crusade,Horus Heresy,The Scouring/Era Imperium...

We just DONT know...

If they take a page from the same book as a lot of the computer games or RPGs, they'll at least initially set it in a sector, subsector or whatever specifically made-up for the series or for the cinematic universe that is supposed to exist eventually. The 40k universe is a big place, there are enough inquisitors, commissars and so on that are not specifically Eisenhorn and Gaunt, and not every fight against chaos needs to include Abaddon or a Demon-Primarch. You can get around to the famous people and stories later on if you want to, but for a start it's probably better to go to planet Cleanslatica and fight the Genericans for a bit, just to give you some time to establish the main characters and some story beats without worrying about 'canon' and 'accuracy' too much.

The action figures, chibis and scented candles were bad enough, add a most likely cringe filled live action tie in and this will likely be another nail of soulless corporatism to add to its coffin.

Eh, you can't stay niche forever, and as the saying goes, there's a lot of ruin in a nation, or company in this case. It's not like the added existence of stuff like this takes something away from people, some may even enjoy it, and if you personally do not it's easy enough to ignore.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
How have the action figures, candles and such hurt the franchise? I mean really?

The rules are the same as ever; the models are still awesome; the paintwork is great; the lore and stories the same.

I've not really seen any harm with the merch. IF anything most people like it. They just engage with different parts. Some love the action toys, some the plushies, some like the wallets and bowls.


Plus all the merch and such costs GW 0. Actually it doesn't just cost them 0 it generates money for them!

All that stuff has also been with us for much longer than peole realize. Even before the turn of the millenium - hah - you could buy all sorts of shirts, dogtags, belt buckles, keyfobs, mugs and other trinkets with warhammer branding, and the first series of 'collectible polystone statuettes' was released in 2002 iirc. Nowadays it's just a bit more professional, a bit more offensively marketed, and has a broader appeal to people whose main contact with the hobby was via video games.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Overread wrote:
How have the action figures, candles and such hurt the franchise? I mean really?

The rules are the same as ever; the models are still awesome; the paintwork is great; the lore and stories the same.

I've not really seen any harm with the merch. IF anything most people like it. They just engage with different parts. Some love the action toys, some the plushies, some like the wallets and bowls.


Plus all the merch and such costs GW 0. Actually it doesn't just cost them 0 it generates money for them!

All that stuff has also been with us for much longer than peole realize. Even before the turn of the millenium - hah - you could buy all sorts of shirts, dogtags, belt buckles, keyfobs, mugs and other trinkets with warhammer branding, and the first series of 'collectible polystone statuettes' was released in 2002 iirc. Nowadays it's just a bit more professional, a bit more offensively marketed, and has a broader appeal to people whose main contact with the hobby was via video games.

It's also being sold online and not just in the Warhammer main store in Nottingham and also long term. As you say we've had merch for years, just often in one shot wonders (often around Christmas) rather than longer or at least middle term products that hang around.

 Segersgia wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.

War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.

For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.

But are alien threats only defeated through draconian, authoritarian religious fundamentalism?

Yes, because you can't negotiate with Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines/Daemons and Necrons without actually being worse off for it. You also can't negotiate with Tyranids at all. Eldar is a half/half.

So basically you'd only have luck with Tau.

And Nicassar… And Kroot… And Vespid… and Tarellians, Jokaero, Zoat, Galg, Oretti, Donarathi, Eldar Exodites, Ynnari, Pisceans, Kin…

The point is, plenty of species in the galaxy willing to cooperate or with a history of past alliances. Also don’t forget the large amount of Beastmen, Abhumans and mutants that probably would be more cooperative if the Imperium didn’t either cull them or consider them second-class citizens.

It could well be the story of an Imperial Inquisitor with the best of intentions who figures out just how messed up the Imperium really is... and tries to do good despite the ridiculously over the top obstacles put in front of them.... but I doubt it.

And yes, good point about the treatment of Abhumans (and other mutants) illustrating the racism as well as xenophobia of the Imperium.

As far as merchandising… if anyone understands soulless corporatism it is GW.

And between GW game shops targeting 12 years and teen focused coming of age adventure novels I do wonder if GW has forgotten that 40k is supposed to be satirical.

I personally have mixed feelings. On one hand, it may be watchable, on the other - I am 100% sure we will get as many normal humans as possible, and a story probably focused around Imperial Guard or the Inquisition (much more likely than any other outcome in my opinion), and normal humans are not why I interact with Warhammer media.

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

And between GW game shops targeting 12 years and teen focused coming of age adventure novels I do wonder if GW has forgotten that 40k is supposed to be satirical.

GW has always been targetting kids as well as adults. Remember the "SPACE CRUSADE! NOW WITH EVEN MORE ADVENTURES!" commercial. As for satirical parts, I think their presence has always been vastly overblown by fans. Official novels as early as mid-2000s often take the setting deadly seriously. Or dead serious, I don't know which form is applicable in this case.

Any 40k movie/series should end abruptly 4 hours in, with the narrator explaining they're out of time and which side would probably have won.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Any 40k movie/series should end abruptly 4 hours in, with the narrator explaining they're out of time and which side would probably have won.

They should probably invite OnTableTop to write a scenario. The battle will end with both sides being tired of throwing weapons at each other, and generals just duel it out in the middle.

Come to think of it, it's probably going to happen anyway.

May I direct people to this thread I did earlier

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/763215.page


60% of us on Dakka got into Miniature Wargaming when we were 13 or under and the next 20% were under their 20s or just entering them.

GW has also, at least in the UK, been running schools programs and been tied into the Duke of Edenborough system for years. Staffers old and new have also spoken of how things like problem solving, maths, social skills, hand skills and such are often used as means to help convince parents that Warhammer is a good healthy wholesome hobby to get their kids into.


The whole idea that GW is diluting the setting is purely invented by people worried over nothing. Heck one can even argue that the hyper overblown grim-dark impression of the setting is in itself a childish impression blown up over the years in the minds eye of fans without them realising; without them noticing that its a grim dark setting but that not every part is ultra evil grim dark. Many of the dark elements are subtle and sly or slight etc..



Also with so many geeks now parents I'd wager that if we did that poll in, say, another 10 years time we might well see the poll even more heavily skewed toward the younger ages.

We were seeing that in-store as early by 2010.

This is where GW’s physical stores are having a pay off. They’re typically laid out in a consumer friendly way. One game here, the next there, and organised by faction. Yes there are planograms sent out to dictate display.

Having the boards setup allows intro. And as folk of my generation (I’m 42) have had kids, and those kids have grown, they drag parents into GW in the same way we did. Except there’s now a reasonable chance their Dad will recognise hobby, at least from Hero Quest or Space Crusade, making them susceptible to being sucked back in. Get that done, and as a store you’re laughing.

And whilst genuine experience, it must remain anecdotal evidence, but in my former Store we had the son learning the ropes of the game, whilst Mum and his Sisters were into the painting, and pretty bloody good at it they were too.

Of course, my experiences there were in a distinctly, near painfully Upper Middle Class town, where the parents typically weren’t short a Bob or two. And as I’ve mentioned before, when you get a socially awkward Noob, and they not only learn the hobby but some social skills (and greater confidence), the parents will often spend, spend, spend to keep those benefits coming. It does warm the cockles to see such a kid come out of their shell and make friends. More so when you learn they’ve had friends made in-store over for gaming sessions at home.

Before someone misunderstands, I am not opposed to wargaming. I have been wargaming since the 1970's as a kid myself.

But there are playing toy soldiers and playing toy soldiers. I dislike narratives that are based on crushing hope, especially for kids.