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In a poor authors hands, sure.

Monolith was immune to anything below S8 in 3rd+ era. As it should be.

To start with, and so I can go back and read the whole thread:



COMPOSITION. The way armies were built left everything open to abuse.

^It would be entertaining to go back and try out the "wall of Rhino" list I'd theorized but couldn't actualize for lack of models.

A Marine was 30 points a model.
A Rhino was 50. Better survivability, better BS (targeters on the bolters I think), better firepower (2 bolters instead of 1!), faster and LOS blocking. 10 Rhinos for 500 points seems like it'd be pretty obnoxious to deal with.

Partial agree on Composition.

But, on balance I still think it worked better than the FoC initially turned out.

Ref 3rd-7th Ed Codexes with wildly oversubscribed Elites sections and under filled Troops, compared to other 3rd-7th Ed Codexes that had a fairer distribution.

As well as doing no more or less to encourage Beardy Armies than 2nd Ed? It went one worse, encouraging Cookie Cutter Beardy Armies, so even when getting ROFLstomped, I wasn’t ever given the luxury of a Unique ROFLStomping.

Alright, read enough to humor myself.




The real problem with 2nd Ed. is that it was either an RPG trying to be a skirmish wargame or a skirmish wargame trying to be an RPG. You had gradients of damage effects that were damn near unmanageable, as well as a general lack of simplification needed for mass games. This is why those rules work best in a Necromunda type setting rather than mass battles. Every problem stems from this. Except for the whole comp thing, that was its own thing. Nothing like building a company level force of things so rare that they'd mostly exist in about .3% of forces if they were in the real world.

Thing is? When the edition first came out, Armies weren’t that terribly far from the size of large Necromunda Gangs.

Consider that your basic, as he comes, no upgrades Tactical Marine was 30 points. And a tooled up, Jump Pack equipped Assault Squad could easily exceed 500 points in its own right.

Two such squads is already going to be over 800 points. And needing a character? You could get comfortably close to 1,000 depending how recklessly you spent on Wargear Cards.

To round out 1,500? Predator, Techmarine (to unlock the Predator) and a unit of Terminators.

In fact? Not delving into Wargear Cards, let’s price that up.

Space Marine Captain (96 points)
Powerfist (10) Plasma Pistol (5) Frag (comes with) Krak (3) Blind Grenades (2)

116 points

Tech Marine (33 points)
Power Ax3 (7) Servo-Arm Wargear Card (10)

50 points

Tactical Squad (300)
Veteran Sarge (5), Missile Launcher (45) Plasma Missiles (5), Flamer (9) Krak Grenades (30)

389 points

Assault Squad (300) upgrades are what my actual squad had back then.
Veteran Sarge (5), Meltabombs (50) Jump Packs (50), 2 Power Swords (12) 2 Power Axes (14) 2 Powerfists (20) 2 Plasma Pistols (10) 2 Hand Flamers (14)

475 points

Terminators (315)
Assault Cannon (41), 1 Chainfist (2)

358 points

Space Marine Predator (90)
Lascannon Sponsons (45) Auto Launchers, loaded with Frag (5)

140 points.

So….28 models total, 1,528 points, with only the Techmarine having a Wargear card, and even then only for WYSIWYG purposes.

To take it up to 2,000? I think I’d add a Devastator Squad (300 base) with two Heavy Bolters with Hellfire shells, Lascannon and Plasma Cannon (425)

Teensy, tiny armies. At least in the beginning. As ever, the longer you’re involved, the larger your army grows, and the larger the point limit you’ll want to play (hence 3rd Ed)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Partial agree on Composition.

But, on balance I still think it worked better than the FoC initially turned out.

Ref 3rd-7th Ed Codexes with wildly oversubscribed Elites sections and under filled Troops, compared to other 3rd-7th Ed Codexes that had a fairer distribution.

I think that was by design and helped armies retain different identities. Different factions manifesting differently is a plus. It's part of army diversity.

At least in theory

Nids were particularly badly hit, as so many units were all squirming around in Elites. And when you’ve only the three slots to pick, it overly informed you army’s construction.

The FOC had a period in time where it was pretty solid for most armies; however the FOC was too inflexible and perhaps lacked customising to specific armies

The result is that steadily it became less and less useful and doubling up just kind of made it rather pointless.

As Doc says the Tyranids wound up with a load of their specialists in the Elite slot and picking which ones to take drastically cut down your options. Meanwhile their heavy support, at the time, was far more open.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Thing is? When the edition first came out, Armies weren’t that terribly far from the size of large Necromunda Gangs.

Consider that your basic, as he comes, no upgrades Tactical Marine was 30 points. And a tooled up, Jump Pack equipped Assault Squad could easily exceed 500 points in its own right.

Two such squads is already going to be over 800 points. And needing a character? You could get comfortably close to 1,000 depending how recklessly you spent on Wargear Cards.

To round out 1,500? Predator, Techmarine (to unlock the Predator) and a unit of Terminators.

In fact? Not delving into Wargear Cards, let’s price that up.

Space Marine Captain (96 points)
Powerfist (10) Plasma Pistol (5) Frag (comes with) Krak (3) Blind Grenades (2)

116 points

Tech Marine (33 points)
Power Ax3 (7) Servo-Arm Wargear Card (10)

50 points

Tactical Squad (300)
Veteran Sarge (5), Missile Launcher (45) Plasma Missiles (5), Flamer (9) Krak Grenades (30)

389 points

Assault Squad (300) upgrades are what my actual squad had back then.
Veteran Sarge (5), Meltabombs (50) Jump Packs (50), 2 Power Swords (12) 2 Power Axes (14) 2 Powerfists (20) 2 Plasma Pistols (10) 2 Hand Flamers (14)

475 points

Terminators (315)
Assault Cannon (41), 1 Chainfist (2)

358 points

Space Marine Predator (90)
Lascannon Sponsons (45) Auto Launchers, loaded with Frag (5)

140 points.

So….28 models total, 1,528 points, with only the Techmarine having a Wargear card, and even then only for WYSIWYG purposes.

To take it up to 2,000? I think I’d add a Devastator Squad (300 base) with two Heavy Bolters with Hellfire shells, Lascannon and Plasma Cannon (425)

Teensy, tiny armies. At least in the beginning. As ever, the longer you’re involved, the larger your army grows, and the larger the point limit you’ll want to play (hence 3rd Ed)

Can someone less lazy than me price this up in 3rd? Probably using the Blood Angels rules for a veteran assault squad given how tooled up this one is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
At least in theory

Nids were particularly badly hit, as so many units were all squirming around in Elites. And when you’ve only the three slots to pick, it overly informed you army’s construction.

Er... 'Nids in 3rd had just two Elites units, of which one (Lictors) could only take a single slot and the other (Warriors) could be taken as HQ.

I don't think their elites got particularly crowded until... 6th? When did they get the Maleceptor and aexocrine etc.?

In 3rd,I think the only really crowded Elites section was for Eldar.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Thing is? When the edition first came out, Armies weren’t that terribly far from the size of large Necromunda Gangs.

Consider that your basic, as he comes, no upgrades Tactical Marine was 30 points. And a tooled up, Jump Pack equipped Assault Squad could easily exceed 500 points in its own right.

Two such squads is already going to be over 800 points. And needing a character? You could get comfortably close to 1,000 depending how recklessly you spent on Wargear Cards.

To round out 1,500? Predator, Techmarine (to unlock the Predator) and a unit of Terminators.

In fact? Not delving into Wargear Cards, let’s price that up.

Space Marine Captain (96 points)
Powerfist (10) Plasma Pistol (5) Frag (comes with) Krak (3) Blind Grenades (2)

116 points

Tech Marine (33 points)
Power Ax3 (7) Servo-Arm Wargear Card (10)

50 points

Tactical Squad (300)
Veteran Sarge (5), Missile Launcher (45) Plasma Missiles (5), Flamer (9) Krak Grenades (30)

389 points

Assault Squad (300) upgrades are what my actual squad had back then.
Veteran Sarge (5), Meltabombs (50) Jump Packs (50), 2 Power Swords (12) 2 Power Axes (14) 2 Powerfists (20) 2 Plasma Pistols (10) 2 Hand Flamers (14)

475 points

Terminators (315)
Assault Cannon (41), 1 Chainfist (2)

358 points

Space Marine Predator (90)
Lascannon Sponsons (45) Auto Launchers, loaded with Frag (5)

140 points.

So….28 models total, 1,528 points, with only the Techmarine having a Wargear card, and even then only for WYSIWYG purposes.

To take it up to 2,000? I think I’d add a Devastator Squad (300 base) with two Heavy Bolters with Hellfire shells, Lascannon and Plasma Cannon (425)

Teensy, tiny armies. At least in the beginning. As ever, the longer you’re involved, the larger your army grows, and the larger the point limit you’ll want to play (hence 3rd Ed)

You've kind of proven my point insofar as a MAJOR negative for 2nd. How many of those units are supposed to be the backbone of the army? Touted in several places as the MAJORITY of the army? That lone Tactical Squad. Were you forced to take that one squad? Because, honestly, nobody in 2nd bothered to take anything except the most efficient and lethal units because you weren't held to anything but percentages and 4 categories.

It's even more telling when you immediately add MORE specialized/Elite troops when you want to bump up your force.

Overread wrote:The FOC had a period in time where it was pretty solid for most armies; however the FOC was too inflexible and perhaps lacked customising to specific armies

The result is that steadily it became less and less useful and doubling up just kind of made it rather pointless.

As Doc says the Tyranids wound up with a load of their specialists in the Elite slot and picking which ones to take drastically cut down your options. Meanwhile their heavy support, at the time, was far more open.

It being inflexible was kind of the point. See my comments on Doc's post.

 Just Tony wrote:
You've kind of proven my point insofar as a MAJOR negative for 2nd. How many of those units are supposed to be the backbone of the army? Touted in several places as the MAJORITY of the army? That lone Tactical Squad. Were you forced to take that one squad? Because, honestly, nobody in 2nd bothered to take anything except the most efficient and lethal units because you weren't held to anything but percentages and 4 categories.

This really depended on who you were playing with. Tournaments certainly tended towards the more cut throat lists, because 2nd edition was largely the era before composition scoring. Although the very first 2nd ed tournament I played in was composed mostly of players from a local (rather large) gaming club, and most of us just used our regular casual lists for it... the worst lists were brought by out-of-towners unfamiliar with the local vibe.

The gaming groups I played with during 2nd varied between 'just use whatever you bought because you like it' and 'build the most brutal list you can' and various points in between over the years. The key was that the game was supposed to be played by people who were looking for the same experience... and so long as you were doing that, having that flexibility to make pretty much whatever sort of list you wanted to was a good thing, not a flaw.

3rd ed, W/ BA for assault squad

Captain (Force commander 60pt)
Powerfist (25) Plasma Pistol (15) Frag (1) Krack (2) no blind
93pts total

Techmarines could only be taken as part of a command squad, not as a solo character. If you wanted to split him out and match to the list he would be:
Veteran Space Marine (18)
Power Weapon (15) Servoarm (30)
63 points total.

10 man Tac Squad (150)
Vet sarge (15) ML w/frag/krack (10) Flamer (6) Krack grenades (20) (no plasma missiles, and frag grenades not included)
201 points total

10 man BA Honour Guard (180) (closest unit at the time to allow warger options)
Vet sarge (12) Melta bombs for all (40) 2x plasma pistols (10) Jump Packs (100) 4x Power weapons (40) 2x power fists (50)
Hand flamers were just extra CC weapons in 3rd, but the squad could take a pair of flamers for (6)
438 total. Dose not include frag/krack grenades which would add 10/20 points
Technically this squad needs a HQ with a jump pack to lead them. Also worth noting that they are just basic vets with 3+ armor, not the golden boys of later editions

5 Man Terminator squad (210)
AsC (20) Chainfist (5)
Total 235

Pred Destructor (100)
Las sponsons (25) Smoke launchers (3 points)
128 total

1,158 points in 3rd. And we had to bend a few rules to get there.

 catbarf wrote:

I have a soft spot for the later 2nd Ed pewter Warriors, the ones that often get forgotten when talking Tyranids across the editions. The battle scenes in the 3rd Ed rulebook, showing late-2nd Ed Tyranids painted in the purple-and-black scheme that we now call Hydra, made a strong impression on me, and I think they do a lot to improve sculpts that can otherwise verge on goofy.

I think it's rather telling that there are only a couple of warriors in that pic, and they're largely obscured by the lictor zoom-in frame... Makes me suspect that those models weren't particularly popular in the studio, either.

In response to Just Tony?

It was genuinely pretty rare not to see Tactical Squads. Between Combat Squad potential, Rapid Fire (double tap your Bolters if you remained stationary*) and every being able to split fire? They were a very solid unit.

My Assault Squads were fairly modestly equipped. This was because I saw opponents load up, only to lose significant amounts of points once casualties started being suffered.

As I’ve got it next to me, here are some pics from WD Battle Reports, sourced from the Battles book. Please not Doc Corp cannot be held responsible for misty, dewy eyes caused by these nostalgic piccies.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It was genuinely pretty rare not to see Tactical Squads. Between Combat Squad potential, Rapid Fire (double tap your Bolters if you remained stationary*) and every being able to split fire? They were a very solid unit.

Also, Tactical Squads were plastic and so were considerably cheaper to collect than pretty much everything else in the Marine list.

Now that’s true as well!

Also worth noting Marines were significantly better than most infantry in the game.

Orks might have an advantage in numbers. Shuriken Catapults were the superior weapon etc.

But as should be the “natural order” of things? Marines did something better than your guys. Either resilience, firepower and accuracy or fisticuffs. They were comfortably above average at everything.

Just did a quick inflation calculator on the Assault Marines, which came in boxes of 5 metal models. I think they were £25 when I bought them in 1995. That’s equivalent of £60 today. But if they were £20? That’s £48 today.

Either way, for a squad of 10? That’s a hefty price tag for a pimply teen* paying for it through his paper round.

*please note I myself wasn’t actually pimply. I’ve always been blessed with good skin.

I'll see you in court Doc, my eyes are misted beyond all reckoning.

Also always love how small the old armies are. 10 Ork boyz as a useful unit!

Ahhh! But with your eyes so misted, how could you possibly identify me in court?

What do you mean, officer? No I’ve no idea how those Fat Bloke era White Dwarfs appeared in the waiting room. Weren’t me!

Calling surprise celebrity witness Mike Walker, Your Honour.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In response to Just Tony?

It was genuinely pretty rare not to see Tactical Squads. Between Combat Squad potential, Rapid Fire (double tap your Bolters if you remained stationary*) and every being able to split fire? They were a very solid unit.

I think I used Tac squads only a few times during 2nd. They really didn't seem to compete next to Devastators, Assault and Terminator Squads. Notably, the first time I used one was my very first 40k game. Might have been 500 points. I think I had a Captain and a Tactical Squad. My opponent took something, something and an Assassin with Polymorphene, Displacer Field, Combi Weapon and various CC weapons. Naturally one of my Marines turned into the Assassin, who started to butcher everything around him. That sorta set the tone for our group. It was dirty and cutthroat from the start.

On small armies, I just checked my Nid codex and Termagants are 6 points, Hormagaunts 8. One could field 100 of each and get 200 models for 1400 points. The 100 model Hormagaunt army popped up from time to time in 2nd for sure, and that left you 1200 points to fill out the rest of a 2k list.

Back to the FOC discussion for a moment, arguably the army with the least amount of options was Necrons. But even with their rigid army composition they still managed to have at least 4 flavors of effective build. Silver Tide of Warrior spam, Multiple Monoliths leaning heavy into Ressurection list, the Destroyer Spam that was pretty popular, and a take-all-comers variety type of list (what I settled on eventually). I think there were people that leaned heavily into Scarabs+Destroyer Lord too, iirc. Immortal Spam would have probably done great as well, I just never saw anyone invest in it. Imo the FOC really didn't make things as homogenous as you make it out to be, and any issue stemmed more from a particular codex rather than the overall army org design philosophy.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I think I used Tac squads only a few times during 2nd. They really didn't seem to compete next to Devastators, Assault and Terminator Squads. Notably, the first time I used one was my very first 40k game. Might have been 500 points. I think I had a Captain and a Tactical Squad. My opponent took something, something and an Assassin with Polymorphene, Displacer Field, Combi Weapon and various CC weapons. Naturally one of my Marines turned into the Assassin, who started to butcher everything around him. That sorta set the tone for our group. It was dirty and cutthroat from the start.

I mean, pretty much any force you took at 500 points would have struggled against an opponent with a tooled up assassin. 1000 points was the bare minimum size game for tooled up characters, and even that still wound up pretty unbalanced a lot of the time.

On small armies, I just checked my Nid codex and Termagants are 6 points, Hormagaunts 8. One could field 100 of each and get 200 models for 1400 points. The 100 model Hormagaunt army popped up from time to time in 2nd for sure, and that left you 1200 points to fill out the rest of a 2k list.

Gaunts, cultists and grots were good for hordes, because that's exactly what they were designed to be. And it was cool because it was such a contrast to most other lists.

 Nevelon wrote:
3rd ed, W/ BA for assault squad

Captain (Force commander 60pt)
Powerfist (25) Plasma Pistol (15) Frag (1) Krack (2) no blind
93pts total

Techmarines could only be taken as part of a command squad, not as a solo character. If you wanted to split him out and match to the list he would be:
Veteran Space Marine (18)
Power Weapon (15) Servoarm (30)
63 points total.

10 man Tac Squad (150)
Vet sarge (15) ML w/frag/krack (10) Flamer (6) Krack grenades (20) (no plasma missiles, and frag grenades not included)
201 points total

10 man BA Honour Guard (180) (closest unit at the time to allow warger options)
Vet sarge (12) Melta bombs for all (40) 2x plasma pistols (10) Jump Packs (100) 4x Power weapons (40) 2x power fists (50)
Hand flamers were just extra CC weapons in 3rd, but the squad could take a pair of flamers for (6)
438 total. Dose not include frag/krack grenades which would add 10/20 points
Technically this squad needs a HQ with a jump pack to lead them. Also worth noting that they are just basic vets with 3+ armor, not the golden boys of later editions

5 Man Terminator squad (210)
AsC (20) Chainfist (5)
Total 235

Pred Destructor (100)
Las sponsons (25) Smoke launchers (3 points)
128 total

1,158 points in 3rd. And we had to bend a few rules to get there.

So Space Marine armies got ~50% bigger in 3rd. Thanks! It isn't as big an increase as I think is commonly inferred.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It was genuinely pretty rare not to see Tactical Squads. Between Combat Squad potential, Rapid Fire (double tap your Bolters if you remained stationary*) and every being able to split fire? They were a very solid unit.

Also, Tactical Squads were plastic and so were considerably cheaper to collect than pretty much everything else in the Marine list.

Once again circuling round to the idea earlier in the thread that 2nd edition composition was dictated more by financial constraints than rules.

Kinda?

There’s little argument 2nd Ed, model for model, tended to be more expensive due to fewer plastic kits, especially at the beginning.

But, the dramatically smaller armies did offset that.

Yes a £25 Dreadnought was a lot of money, even for those buying from an adult wage. But typically? You’re only buying the one.

Characters being maybe £8 tops? That’s a fair amount of points, Spesh once you started piling on Wargear which could ramp up their in-game cost.

Even the Assault Squad I set out. £50, or around £120 in today’s money isn’t cheap for a single squad. At all. But, as nearly a third of a 1,500 point army after equipment? Not unaffordable or an unattractive expense.

Devastators varied of course. The boxed set came with set weapons, and the remaining five bods typically came from the cheapo plastic 5 man squad as you only needed Bolter Marines. To go custom loadout you were Blister Packing/Mail Order, which was a bit more expensive, but still mitigated by the cheapo Bolters.

Terminators become much more attractive once the Space Hulk multi-part plastic ones became available, probably around 1994/1995? Certainly I was studying GCSE Maths at the time,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kinda?

There’s little argument 2nd Ed, model for model, tended to be more expensive due to fewer plastic kits, especially at the beginning.

But, the dramatically smaller armies did offset that.

Yes a £25 Dreadnought was a lot of money, even for those buying from an adult wage. But typically? You’re only buying the one.

Characters being maybe £8 tops? That’s a fair amount of points, Spesh once you started piling on Wargear which could ramp up their in-game cost.

Even the Assault Squad I set out. £50, or around £120 in today’s money isn’t cheap for a single squad. At all. But, as nearly a third of a 1,500 point army after equipment? Not unaffordable or an unattractive expense.

Devastators varied of course. The boxed set came with set weapons, and the remaining five bods typically came from the cheapo plastic 5 man squad as you only needed Bolter Marines. To go custom loadout you were Blister Packing/Mail Order, which was a bit more expensive, but still mitigated by the cheapo Bolters.

Terminators become much more attractive once the Space Hulk multi-part plastic ones became available, probably around 1994/1995? Certainly I was studying GCSE Maths at the time,

Marines are the best case scenario though. What about Guard or the aforementioned Tyranid Gaunts?

Also, I'm not convinced that a 50% increase in Marine army size is all that dramatic. That is going from 28 models to 42 (by model count), maybe adding a couple of extra units, three at a push. If the units became half the price (because plastic) then it actually becomes easier to create the 3rd edition list.

Guard were an odd one, as they had a unique army structure.

Basically, for every squad you had, you could take a support (like a Leman Russ, Basilisk etc).

I’d need to find some reliable historical price list, but Guard were surprisingly Not Horrific To Buy, despite all the infantry being metal. Plus, they were typically “one box, one unit”. Outside of Heavy Weapon Squads.

I had a look on Stuff of Legends, but unfortunately the older catalogues don't seem to have a price list. The 2006 one does, but that isn't terribly helpful for this discussion.

I think it will require dredging through old White Dwarfs and I don't have the bandwidth for that right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding army sizes, I went and pointed up the example 1500pt army list in the 2nd edition Imperial Guard codex for 3rd edition (using the first codex, although I substituted the sanctioned psyker rules from the second codex for the primaris psykers).

The list is a Colonel command squad with 2 meltaguns and a missile launcher in Chimera, an infantry squad with flamer and heavy bolter, a second infantry squad with plasma gun and missile launcher in a Chimera, a heavy weapons squad with two autocannons and a heavy bolter, a Lieutenant command squad with a lascannon and a heavy bolter, 5 ratlings, 5 rough riders with hunting lances, and a Leman Russ. There was a primaris psyker attached to each command squad.

That 1500pt list is actually 1025pts in 3rd, with the caveat it isn't a legal army (needs an extra Guardsmen squad and platoon command squads couldn't take two heavy weapons teams in this edition). So sticks with the ~50% larger army sizes in 3rd. Notably, the Imperial Guard Cadian battleforce from the end of 3rd got you about a third of that by itself. Another heavy weapons squad set, the Cadian command squad (metal), cadian officers set (metal), the blister with a meltagunner and plasma gunner (metal), two Chimeras, and the ratlings and rough riders (also metal) rounds out the list. A second battleforce would comfortably round it out to 1500pts though.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Guard were an odd one, as they had a unique army structure.

Basically, for every squad you had, you could take a support (like a Leman Russ, Basilisk etc).

I’d need to find some reliable historical price list, but Guard were surprisingly Not Horrific To Buy, despite all the infantry being metal. Plus, they were typically “one box, one unit”. Outside of Heavy Weapon Squads.

From memory my old Guard army which I assume was 1500pts was a command squad, 3 russ, 3 chimera, 3 infantry squads. Command squad hid and co-ordinated the battlecannon barrage. Tanks and chimera rolled (perhaps from off table) up, fired, fired smoke grenades. Turn 2 tried to roll through the smokes, fired another inaccurate barrage, final smoke rounds from the 2 shot launchers, turn 3 survivors rolled through smoke, havoc ensued. Turn 4 my few survivors huddled together against the horror.

The other thing, which I should’ve mentioned when sharing the piccies, is that White Dwarf Battle Reports pretty much set the standard.

As in, that’s what we had to aspire to, 2nd Ed being a time before the internet was widespread.

Not dumping on the next person’s preference, but WD didn’t encourage Beardy Lists, instead promoting a “take what you want” approach. WAAC and “is my army competitive” wouldn’t really enter my sphere until 3rd Edition landed, because I just had no exposure to gamers that weren’t part of my immediate gaming circles.

So yeah, the army selection could be abused. But in my experience? It just wasn’t. Because 40K wasn’t presented to us as a Competitive Thing, so much as a Collaborative Effort to tell a cool story via dice and asplosions.

White Dwarf lists/loadouts was actually a term used at the time (and later) as well. Especially for the one-of-everything dev squads. TAC lists taken just a little too far, to the point that while they could do anything, they couldn’t actually get results.

That said, when you put two of them on the table across from each other, you could have a fun game. Which could be said about all of 40k across the years. If you and your opponent were on the same page for how hard you were going, you could have a lot of fun. Either casual v. casual, or comp v. comp. It was when you mixed the two that things got un-fun.