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Made in au
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Making Stuff






Under the couch

The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.
[Thumb - IMG_20240523_055710997~2.jpg]
VPs


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 insaniak wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.
Correct about the Nobz, but incorrect about the VPs.

In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

 Insectum7 wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.
Correct about the Nobz, but incorrect about the VPs.

In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

The Nobz bike is a support option that seems to be a mob in its own right though. It is a bike + driver + a nob from the characters section. Nothing seems to suggest it needs attaching to another mob.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Haighus wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.
Correct about the Nobz, but incorrect about the VPs.

In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

The Nobz bike is a support option that seems to be a mob in its own right though. It is a bike + driver + a nob from the characters section. Nothing seems to suggest it needs attaching to another mob.
Ooooooo good find! But it's in the support section not the characters one, probably counting as a vehicle? It's listed as having an Ork driver and the Nob, so it's not quite the same as an independent SM or Eldar character on a bike, and if they dismounted they'd be a "mob" of 2.

Edit: Looking at the Dark Millennium VP charts, a Vehicle is "disabled" if the crew dismount it, giving 0 VPs if the unit was less than 100 points, but if it's destroyed it's worth 1 VP.

I think it just counts as a vehicle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/28 20:33:28


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Haighus wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

You forget... The army that won the second International GT in 2nd ed was one do these Ork armies. You had was it a 50%? (maybe 25%) character allocation - Nob on a (think Nobz bike) bike with some kind of flamer or similar came in at under 50 points so gave 0vps. Have a mass horde of them and it became mathematically impossible to lose... We switched to units giving up their actual points to fix this.

A 50 point character still gave a VP when you killed it, just like any other character. And Nobz were assigned to squads, you couldn't just take over on his own. So this doesn't work.
Correct about the Nobz, but incorrect about the VPs.

In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

The Nobz bike is a support option that seems to be a mob in its own right though. It is a bike + driver + a nob from the characters section. Nothing seems to suggest it needs attaching to another mob.
Ooooooo good find! But it's in the support section not the characters one, probably counting as a vehicle? It's listed as having an Ork driver and the Nob, so it's not quite the same as an independent SM or Eldar character on a bike, and if they dismounted they'd be a "mob" of 2.

Yeah, its clear as mud!

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in us
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 Haighus wrote:

Yeah, its clear as mud!

But you see. . . that's the strength of the system though!

As a unit I think it's like the Eldar Vyper w/character unit, where you replace the gunner with a Farseer/Exarch. Except in this case the entry says you buy the Character and then upgrade the character with a Vyper instead of a normal bike, so you start out by buying the character in the Characters section, which would feel more like you ought to use the Character VP chart again. D'oh!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/28 20:45:16


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






As I’ve wibbled before, 2nd Ed and that general era of “wots an FAQ, precious” is why I have such a mend and make do attitude to Wonky Rules.

Doesn’t excuse the rules being wonky of course. But it does explain why I’m happy to home brew and house rule.


   
Made in us
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As I’ve wibbled before, 2nd Ed and that general era of “wots an FAQ, precious” is why I have such a mend and make do attitude to Wonky Rules.

Doesn’t excuse the rules being wonky of course. But it does explain why I’m happy to home brew and house rule.
They published FAQs in WD during 2nd ed though.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Which was great if you had a subscription. And your back issues were kept in order etc.

   
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Eye of Terror

 Da Boss wrote:
Mad Dok's thread got me re-reading the old rules and the old codex books, and there's so much to love in there. But here's the stuff I DON'T love, and I'm posting it so you can tell me what an IDIOT I am and explain to me why this stuff is actually awesome.
Off we go!
1. Faction variety: It's great that you get Genestealer Cults, Squats (a basic list, at least!) Chaos Cults and Imperial Agents ready to go. But no Tau? Only 4 units for Necrons? No Dark Eldar, just an admittedly cool Pirate unit entry in the Eldar codex? Fie upon that! So if I was gonna go back to 2e I'd want to make lists for those guys. Dark Eldar you can probably bodge out of the Craftworld list, but Tau are gonna have to be carved out of whole cloth.
2. Psychic Phase: It was cool, but it was broken as hell. And it required decks of cards, which makes it tricky for people who want to get into it. My solution: a dice based system like WFB 6th edition. Make some tables of powers, use the dice generation mechanic, and have the psychically resistant or null units have something like the Dwarf extra dispel dice rule.
3. Strategy Cards: As above, having this stuff on cards makes it difficult to replicate. But also, sorry, but I've always thought theses pretty much sucked. And the Tyranid versions are really fluffy, but as game mechanics, they also really suck. I'd just cut these from the game. If you want wacky gak the game already gives you plenty.
4. Wargear Cards: MOAR CARDS! Some of these I'd fold into the army lists as options for characters, perhaps limited to 1 per army, but others I'd just bin. Sorry, I don't like Vortex Grenades.
5. Datafex Cards: EVEN MOAR CARDS! I get that 2e vehicles had to communicate a lot of information quickly, and they did this by having these cards. But again, tracking them down or making your own is a pain, and makes list building annoying when you have to refer to them and you don't have them. Not sure that I'd go so far as the unified vehicle damage tables from 3e, but these are a pain and show how cumbersome a lot of the vehicle rules were.

Great job summarizing some of the good points of 2nd edition.

A big part of it's appeal was the fact the game was ostentatiously, vociferously broken and made no pretenses about being better than what came before. People took the rules as seriously as they took science class the week before graduating high school.

My Chaos Lord could run around in spikey armor that hurt you when you try to hit him, eventually he'd die and be replaced with a much more powerful Bloodthirster for your trouble. Guardsmen were meatshields and died as such, none of this stuff with orders making them effective at anything but getting in the way. Eldar could move shoot move charge move fight move move and then move, which is exactly how they are supposed to be played. 'Ere We Go was more of a guide to life than a Codex. Land Raiders were almost impossible to kill, just as their guns were almost impossible to shoot. Vehicles in general were hard to kill, nothing like a Predator with no guns rolling around providing mobile cover. And everyone had scratch-built models in their army made of pipe cleaner and deodorant canisters. Psychic powers often did something offensively useful.

The cards I could do without, and mostly did.

I realize we're never going to see that game again, but really wish it could be shared with the current generation. Totally different experience.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which was great if you had a subscription. And your back issues were kept in order etc.
Well I think you've gotta admit that's a little more you saying "wots an FAQ, precious" than GW. When I showed up for game night I brought my Codex, rulebooks and any relevant WD that I expected to be relevant.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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NE Ohio, USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which was great if you had a subscription. And your back issues were kept in order etc.
Well I think you've gotta admit that's a little more you saying "wots an FAQ, precious" than GW. When I showed up for game night I brought my Codex, rulebooks and any relevant WD that I expected to be relevant.


Good for you.
Unfortunately if one didn't buy WD, or get every issue, or know that issue x had such a faq in it....
Heck there was one shop in my area at the time that sold WHFB/40k - but they didn't stock white Dwarf.
   
Made in us
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That's fair, but the point is that GW knew what an FAQ was in 2nd ed, and published them.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
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Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Insectum7 wrote:
In Dark Millennium there are revised VP tables, broken up into categories Squads, Vehicles, Characters, Vehicle Squadrons, and Support Weapon Batteries. The Characters chart says a Character worth 50 points or less is worth 0 VPs either wounded or killed. I think my Apothecaries were always suspiciously under 51 points. . .

Ah, thank you! I had a vague tickle on my brain about the 50 point character thing, but couldn't remember where it would have been from. Went back over all of the 2nd ed era FAQs and couldn't find it. Never even thought to look in Dark Millennium.


 Haighus wrote:

The Nobz bike is a support option that seems to be a mob in its own right though. It is a bike + driver + a nob from the characters section. Nothing seems to suggest it needs attaching to another mob.

As Insectum7 pointed out, though, taking it that way makes it a support option vehicle, though, and worth a VP when destroyed.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which was great if you had a subscription. And your back issues were kept in order etc.

Still FAQs, though. On pretty much a monthly basis for most of the edition.

And for what it's worth, I never had a subscription, and was living on the opposite side of the planet from GW HQ in a time before the OZ edition of the mag was a thing, so there were approximately 3 and a half places in the entire country to buy White Dwarf without mail ordering it from the UK... and I still had every issue. I used to photocopy the FAQ pages and keep them in a binder for easy reference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/29 09:09:57


 
   
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A 2000 point 2nd edition army would have half the models of a 10th edition army and take just as long to play. 2nd edition was halfway between 10th edition and kill team. If that's the size of a battle you want 2nd edition was the beat edition.

I would love to see revitalized 2nd edition rules say under the name rogue trader 2nd edition. Some players would prefer to play at that scale but more importantly it would be more accommodating to new players.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
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Chicago

 schadenfreude wrote:


I would love to see revitalized 2nd edition rules say under the name rogue trader 2nd edition. Some players would prefer to play at that scale but more importantly it would be more accommodating to new players.


Have you tried Shadow War Armageddon? It's a pretty good port of the original Necromunda (2nd edition mechanics) into the wider 40k setting. Smaller in scope even (5-12 figures per person, no vehicles, etc) than what Rogue Trader became but it plays quickly like original Necromunda and has campaign and advancement. I still think that warband/gang sized games such as original Necromunda, Mordheim and Shadow War Armageddon are the best implementation of the basic mechanics from Rogue Trader and 2nd edition.

I'm not sure 40k ever recovered from having a set of rules that was best suited for a game like Necromunda and expanding them to army size without corresponding adjustments. Even when they attempted (3rd, 8th, 10th) to dial the complexity back to better fit a the larger game fans wanted, they always find ways to shovel back in additional layers of rules.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/06/16 11:46:48


Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Most of GW's layered rules aren't the issue.

It's more about the way GW structures their rules and uses language as well as rebuilds them so often. As a result you end up with confusion because you've a slightly confused order of activation/importance when resolving rules that clash with each other.

Rule A says "always X"
Rule B says "always Y"

And when both happen and X and Y can't both be true at once you get confusion on which does happen.



This is in contrast to, say, Magic the Gathering where there's very clear orders of activation and a single set of terms for rules; GW even messes with this giving similar rules or even the same rules different names and terms. Heck it wouldn't surprise me if we often get different codex with the same rule written in different ways as an edition evolves and is released.

This is all further compounded by GW losing the ability to create logical information flows somewhere around 4-5th edition or thereabouts. Heck they can't even put unit stat cards in alphabetical order in the codex (since they've removed all other structures that they used to have like the Force Organisation slots).


The biggest weak point with GW rules has always been GW itself. From management to writers the system is not setup for success.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

 Overread wrote:
Most of GW's layered rules aren't the issue.

It's more about the way GW structures their rules and uses language as well as rebuilds them so often. As a result you end up with confusion because you've a slightly confused order of activation/importance when resolving rules that clash with each other.

Rule A says "always X"
Rule B says "always Y"

And when both happen and X and Y can't both be true at once you get confusion on which does happen.



This is in contrast to, say, Magic the Gathering where there's very clear orders of activation and a single set of terms for rules; GW even messes with this giving similar rules or even the same rules different names and terms. Heck it wouldn't surprise me if we often get different codex with the same rule written in different ways as an edition evolves and is released.

This is all further compounded by GW losing the ability to create logical information flows somewhere around 4-5th edition or thereabouts. Heck they can't even put unit stat cards in alphabetical order in the codex (since they've removed all other structures that they used to have like the Force Organisation slots).


The biggest weak point with GW rules has always been GW itself. From management to writers the system is not setup for success.


And yet they succeed, quite well.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Oh agreed it works, but I'd argue that it works for reasons other than the quality/clarity of the rules

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
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Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

 Overread wrote:
Oh agreed it works, but I'd argue that it works for reasons other than the quality/clarity of the rules


100%. In spite of it I’d say.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 Eilif wrote:

Have you tried Shadow War Armageddon? It's a pretty good port of the original Necromunda (2nd edition mechanics) into the wider 40k setting. Smaller in scope even (5-12 figures per person, no vehicles, etc) than what Rogue Trader became but it plays quickly like original Necromunda and has campaign and advancement.


We went wild for it. Extra teams, loads of boards set up, etc. etc. then club had to move and went on hiatus and by time got new venue people were doing different stuff :(
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I was vaguely aware of Shadow War Armageddon, but I thought it was just another one of GW's overpriced and badly made board games.

It's 2e Necromunda with all factions?!

CRAP, I would have loved that! I think my local shop has some of the books in the discount bin, time to go bargain hunting.

   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

The_Real_Chris wrote:

We went wild for it. Extra teams, loads of boards set up, etc. etc. then club had to move and went on hiatus and by time got new venue people were doing different stuff :(


That sounds like a ton of fun. We played a couple times and liked it, but ended up distracted by other games. I made sure to pick up a second copy of the rules with the hope of someday getting folks interested again.

Since then, I've taken quite a liking to Space Weirdos as a great option for zany Rogue-Trader-universe warband skirmish, but my affection for the Necromunda mechanics remains undimmed (we started a Mordhiem campaign last week) so there is hope that SW:A may rise again.

Da Boss wrote:I was vaguely aware of Shadow War Armageddon, but I thought it was just another one of GW's overpriced and badly made board games.

It's 2e Necromunda with all factions?!

CRAP, I would have loved that! I think my local shop has some of the books in the discount bin, time to go bargain hunting.


Yep it's basically original Necromunda (which is based on 2e mechanics) for 40k factions. It was a fairly high-priced box set, but it was also later a comparatively-reasonably-priced rulebook You only need to buy one rulebook and the additional army sheets ,counters, etc are still free to download here:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/shadow-war-armageddon-pre-order-and-downloadsgw-homepage-post-4/

It's not perfect. No where near all units are covered, and some of the later armies may be considered over-powered, but it's a good game. Also, if you're familiar with 2nd edition statlines and such, it wouldn't be hard to port over or make your own units.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

 Eilif wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

We went wild for it. Extra teams, loads of boards set up, etc. etc. then club had to move and went on hiatus and by time got new venue people were doing different stuff :(


That sounds like a ton of fun. We played a couple times and liked it, but ended up distracted by other games. I made sure to pick up a second copy of the rules with the hope of someday getting folks interested again.

Since then, I've taken quite a liking to Space Weirdos as a great option for zany Rogue-Trader-universe warband skirmish, but my affection for the Necromunda mechanics remains undimmed (we started a Mordhiem campaign last week) so there is hope that SW:A may rise again.

Da Boss wrote:I was vaguely aware of Shadow War Armageddon, but I thought it was just another one of GW's overpriced and badly made board games.

It's 2e Necromunda with all factions?!

CRAP, I would have loved that! I think my local shop has some of the books in the discount bin, time to go bargain hunting.


Yep it's basically original Necromunda (which is based on 2e mechanics) for 40k factions. It was a fairly high-priced box set, but it was also later a comparatively-reasonably-priced rulebook You only need to buy one rulebook and the additional army sheets ,counters, etc are still free to download here:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/shadow-war-armageddon-pre-order-and-downloadsgw-homepage-post-4/

It's not perfect. No where near all units are covered, and some of the later armies may be considered over-powered, but it's a good game. Also, if you're familiar with 2nd edition statlines and such, it wouldn't be hard to port over or make your own units.


Well that's got me interested! Was just going to ask if the Necromunda factions were also in the book but I believe I still have Necromunda and outlands laying around somewhere so I guess it wouldn't matter. I'm thinking about just picking up the books from Ebay. I'll gladly hold on to those until I get the chance to give it a go. I'd love to play a wild skirmish game again. I have about 30 Ratskins painted up and about 100 zombies I painted the other year, could be something there. I'll download everything tomorrow morning... if I remember too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/17 20:08:28


The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.

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Calculating Commissar





England

 warhead01 wrote:
 Eilif wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:

We went wild for it. Extra teams, loads of boards set up, etc. etc. then club had to move and went on hiatus and by time got new venue people were doing different stuff :(


That sounds like a ton of fun. We played a couple times and liked it, but ended up distracted by other games. I made sure to pick up a second copy of the rules with the hope of someday getting folks interested again.

Since then, I've taken quite a liking to Space Weirdos as a great option for zany Rogue-Trader-universe warband skirmish, but my affection for the Necromunda mechanics remains undimmed (we started a Mordhiem campaign last week) so there is hope that SW:A may rise again.

Da Boss wrote:I was vaguely aware of Shadow War Armageddon, but I thought it was just another one of GW's overpriced and badly made board games.

It's 2e Necromunda with all factions?!

CRAP, I would have loved that! I think my local shop has some of the books in the discount bin, time to go bargain hunting.


Yep it's basically original Necromunda (which is based on 2e mechanics) for 40k factions. It was a fairly high-priced box set, but it was also later a comparatively-reasonably-priced rulebook You only need to buy one rulebook and the additional army sheets ,counters, etc are still free to download here:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/shadow-war-armageddon-pre-order-and-downloadsgw-homepage-post-4/

It's not perfect. No where near all units are covered, and some of the later armies may be considered over-powered, but it's a good game. Also, if you're familiar with 2nd edition statlines and such, it wouldn't be hard to port over or make your own units.


Well that's got me interested! Was just going to ask if the Necromunda factions were also in the book but I believe I still have Necromunda and outlands laying around somewhere so I guess it wouldn't matter. I'm thinking about just picking up the books from Ebay. I'll gladly hold on to those until I get the chance to give it a go. I'd love to play a wild skirmish game again. I have about 30 Ratskins painted up and about 100 zombies I painted the other year, could be something there. I'll download everything tomorrow morning... if I remember too.

Shadow War: Armageddon isn't an expansion for Necromunda. It is a standalone game that is essentially a version of 40k kill team built on the 2nd edition/Necromunda basic ruleset. It is intended for squad-sized skirmish warfare (initially in Hive Acheron on Armageddon, although they added other factions later).

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Overread wrote:
Oh agreed it works, but I'd argue that it works for reasons other than the quality/clarity of the rules

I'd love to see the alternate reality where GW in the mid-90s hired an editor and from 4th ed onwards, 40K new editions were just for refining and clarifying unclear rules and rebalancing to account for new releases. It would be interesting to see how much difference that would have made to sales and the size of the player base by now...

 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 insaniak wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Oh agreed it works, but I'd argue that it works for reasons other than the quality/clarity of the rules

I'd love to see the alternate reality where GW in the mid-90s hired an editor and from 4th ed onwards, 40K new editions were just for refining and clarifying unclear rules and rebalancing to account for new releases. It would be interesting to see how much difference that would have made to sales and the size of the player base by now...


Honestly 4th-9th (or 8th?) had more issues than just the rules going on. That was the dark ages where GW was against the internet and so forth and pulling back from a lot of the community driven stuff even at the top end. So rules alone might not have led to vast changes; but then again a big reason Warmachine grew was for its rules so who knows perhaps it will have suppressed PP early on. Heck maybe they'd have come out stronger having not had a huge rise and then fall of 3rd edition.

It would be great to see the what-if.

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Some of the things we did if I'm remembering correctly

Models didn't catch fire from flamers. (Dead models removed from board, wounded and saved models moved to edge of flamer template)
Not sure what this facing rule is I've seen mentioned. Individual troops had 360 fire range, tanks had their normal fire-arcs (at least in our group)
Jump packs didn't scatter. (or if they did, it wasn't by much)
Any psychic power could be nullified during any psychic phase. So those powers that stayed in play, you could keep trying to nullify each turn. Adding force cards to your nullify increased likelihood of nullify success.

In 2k point games, you only had 3-5 units, maybe a tank. Because of less troops, even with dark millennium, turns didn't take all that long

I believe we drew strat cards at random and kept them hidden from our opponent until we used them.

Lugging around your army then wasn't as much of a chore as it is now.
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 warhead01 wrote:

Well that's got me interested! Was just going to ask if the Necromunda factions were also in the book but I believe I still have Necromunda and outlands laying around somewhere so I guess it wouldn't matter. I'm thinking about just picking up the books from Ebay. I'll gladly hold on to those until I get the chance to give it a go. I'd love to play a wild skirmish game again. I have about 30 Ratskins painted up and about 100 zombies I painted the other year, could be something there. I'll download everything tomorrow morning... if I remember too.


The original Necromunda books are good fun and nice to have on the shelf. However, for play, I'd skip them and download the "Necromunda Community Edition" from yaktribe.

It's the "Living Rulebook" rules compilation that GW released to the community with a bunch of small, subtle tweaks and balances added. We used it for a short campaign and found it fantastic.
https://yaktribe.games/community/vault/necromunda-community-edition-rulebook.1/
You do have to sign up though.

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 Haighus wrote:

Shadow War: Armageddon isn't an expansion for Necromunda. It is a standalone game that is essentially a version of 40k kill team built on the 2nd edition/Necromunda basic ruleset. It is intended for squad-sized skirmish warfare (initially in Hive Acheron on Armageddon, although they added other factions later).


I'd figured it wouldn't have the Necromunda stuff but thought there might have been a chance.
The important stuff is more that it would work as a resource and that "both games" are effectively the same game and cross compatible.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eilif wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:

Well that's got me interested! Was just going to ask if the Necromunda factions were also in the book but I believe I still have Necromunda and outlands laying around somewhere so I guess it wouldn't matter. I'm thinking about just picking up the books from Ebay. I'll gladly hold on to those until I get the chance to give it a go. I'd love to play a wild skirmish game again. I have about 30 Ratskins painted up and about 100 zombies I painted the other year, could be something there. I'll download everything tomorrow morning... if I remember too.


The original Necromunda books are good fun and nice to have on the shelf. However, for play, I'd skip them and download the "Necromunda Community Edition" from yaktribe.

It's the "Living Rulebook" rules compilation that GW released to the community with a bunch of small, subtle tweaks and balances added. We used it for a short campaign and found it fantastic.
https://yaktribe.games/community/vault/necromunda-community-edition-rulebook.1/
You do have to sign up though.


Very cool thank you. I am kicking myself for not having bought the second release where it was just the big book and no terrain from some time in the early to md 00's.
My buddy bought it and I'm not even sure if we played more than a few games. It's been a while ago.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/18 14:21:20


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