Switch Theme:

Unit Diversity in 40k  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Unit diversity in 40k

While there has been a lot of discussion about diversity, and the possible increase or decrease in 40k, there has been remarkably little analysis done to determine how much diversity really exists, how much existed, and how much change there has been. To get the ball rolling, I’m proposing (and applying) a protocol for determining how much unit diversity exists within a codex. The idea is to determine how unique a unit is, with the overall score measuring how many “distinct” ways the unit can be used on the table top. I plan on combining a subjective scale with a more rigid point based system, and supplying both scores for review. The goal is to answer questions such: who has more variety in troop choices: Eldar or Chaos? How many true choices do each codex have?

My initial hypothesis is that armies with fewer choices often have more variety built into those choices, while armies with a plethora of options (Eldar, chaos) frequently have fewer built in options. Finally, I expect the older, “core” armies to have far more diversity then newer armies. Eventually, I plan on comparing the overall unit diversity from any given codex with an analysis of “Build Diversity” in the codices, meaning how many distinct army archetypes can come out of each book.

For subjective judging, I will use a fairly simple 1-3 score system:
1) This unit has few, if any options, probably limited to a handful of weapon options, wargear for a leader, and/or a transport. This unit is generally limited to one main combat role, but may a secondary back up role. Examples: Necron Warriors, Whirlwind, Howling Banshees, Stealth suits, Sniper units.
2) This unit has a broad array of options that allow it to be used in multiple combat roles. By adjusting the size, weapons, wargear and transport options, the unit can present at least two significantly different looks. Examples: Falcon, Predators, Dreadnoughts, Dark Reapers, Kroot, nearly all transports.
3) This unit has a wide array of options, either built into the unit itself or as a part of the army (traits, doctrines, etc.) that can allow the unit to present multiple, truly different unit builds. These units can be built to tackle multiple battlefield roles well, and may often be a combination of multiple older units. Examples: Guardians, Tactical squads, Chaos Marines, Infantry Platoons, and Ork Boyz.

For a scoring protocol, the score for any given unit starts with a score of 1. The following penalties and bonuses are applied. Keep in mind, all of these bonuses are applied if the option is truly an option. For example, Space Marine Veterans get a bonus for being able to buy Infiltrate, but Scouts do not because it’s standard.

Minor Option (1/4 point bonus):
The unit has a range of weapon options for special/heavy
The unit has access to a transport
The unit may swap it’s basic weapons, with little impact on it’s overall role
The unit may aquire a minor USR (tankhunter, acute senses) that do not chage it’s role.
The unit may gain infiltrate or deep strike
The unit profile may be slightly altered (Initiative, WS, LD, BS)
The unit may alter it’s save up to or back from a 4+ save or worse
The unit may gain an invulnerable save of up to 6++
The unit has access to a special rule that will alter it (in a way beyond making it better) but do not fall into any category
The unit may take a significant morale boost.

Major Options (1/2 point bonus)
The unit may gain access to new/more special or heavy weapons
The unit may access multiple transport options
The unit can gain a major USR that alters it’s role (Scout, Fleet, etc)
The unit can gain both Infiltrate and Deep strike
The unit profile may be altered signifigantly (A, T, S)
The unit may alter it’s save to or from a 2+ or 3+ save
The unit may gain a 5++ or better invulnerable save
The unit may alter in size at least three times the minimum size
The unit may change it’s FOC slot
The choice may add distinct elements to it, from different models to whole new units
The unit may change it’s type (jetbike, infantry, jump)
The unit has access to a special rule that will signifigantly alter it (in a way beyond making it better) but do not fall into any category
The unit may be upgraded to fearless.


Penalties (major options become minor, minor options are discarded) :
An option is so prevalent as to be virtually essential
An option is so costly or weak as to be useless
An option, or group of options, has so little impact on the unit’s combat role as to be mainly garnish, or for show.

Copycat units: if two units are nearly identical, save for a few of the options listed above, the second unit does not get the default score of one for being a unit. The unit will still gain points based on options allowed. The goal here is to prevent double dipping between essentially identical units (Destructors and annihilators) when the difference between them is a simple weapon swap.

Independent Character rules: Since nearly all HQ choices have access to a broad range of wargear, weapons, and protection, the following apply:

Minor Options (+ ¼)
Access to powerful, short ranged shooting weapons
Access to a full range of assault weapons (beyond power weapons/power fist)
Access to increased protection (save boost, invulnerable save)
May add a morale boosting element

Major options (+ ½)
Access to long range shooting
Access to high strength, high Initiative power weapons
Access to enhanced mobility (bike, jump pack)
Allows a unit to change FOC slot

Command squads: a command squad is scored just like any other unit.


The goal is not to weigh capabilities, but rather options. I shall also try to limit the amount of discretionary elimination of options because I don’t consider them to be strong or useful. Some of this is unavoidable: are Kisses really an option for Harlies? Does anybody buy the +1 attack for SM Command squads? However, just because giving nobz bikes is questionable doesn’t mean it’s not a huge new option.

To illustrate the process, I’d like to walk through a few examples. First up are a very simple unit:

Ogryn:

Start with +1 for being a unit.
May take a bonehead to gain access to the armory (+1/4)
May take a chimera transport (+1/4)
May take a bonehead to gain +1 ld (+1/4)
Penalty to Armory: little to no alteration possible (-1/4)

Total: 1.5

I think this makes sense. Ogryn are really only there for one reason: assault, and the only real options are to either gain higher LD and/or a chimera.

Next, we tackle a slightly more complicated unit:

Sentinel Squadron:

Start with +1 for being a unit.
May swap main weapons: +1/2
Access to Armory: +1/4
May gain +1 WS: +1/4
Can gain Deep strike: +1/4
Large size variable: +1/2
Penalty: +1 WS is a minor upgrade with little real change: -1/4

Total: 2.5

This is a unit with a fairly high amount of customizablilty. While sentinels seem pretty straight forward, there is a huge difference between a single deep striking sentinel, WS4 heavy flamer countercharge machines, and a trio of closed top Lascannon sentinels shooting at range. I like this result, even if it appears a little higher then the 2 I would have given it on the subjective scale.

Another example unit:

Storm Troopers:
Start as a unit: +1
May gain Deep Strike and infiltrate: +1/2
Range of weapons: +1/4
Access to armory (can take PP, PW, and give the squad melta bombs): +1/4
May take a transport: +1/4
May be taken as troops: +1/2

This shakes out to 2.75, which is close to the 3 I would have given them. While not good at much, they do have multiple battlefield roles. While sentinels appear high, Stormtroopers appear low to me.

And finally, a mind number:

Infantry Platoon:
Unit: +1
May gain both Infiltrate and Deep Strike: +1/2
May add distinct elements: +1/2
Range of specials and Heavies: +1/4
May gain stealth (cameleoline): +1/2
May gain Jungle fighters, Chem inhalers, and other minor rules: +1/4
May gain +1 initiative and + ½ BS: +1/4
May take transport: +1/4
May upgrade armor to a 4+: +1/4
Access to Armory: +1/4
Access to morale boosters (voc, COD, and/or Iron discipline): +1/4
May trade a heavy for special weapon (heavy flamers, etc): +1/2
May gain a 6++ invulnerable save: +1/4

Total: 5

I like his result. The IG platoon really has a ton of options, and can be fielded in nearly any given way. I’d imagine this will be the high value for all 40k units.



At some point, I would like to actually go through a codex or two and add up all the options and see what the numbers say. If anybody else would like to, I’d be really interested in seeing what you come up. In addition, any comments, criticisms, or complete slams are welcome.


   
Made in ca
Drew_Riggio




Vancouver, British Columbia.

Do you enjoy stacking objects and are often perplexed by subtle social queues? Because seriously, dude.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Are you implying that I might have a little too much free time on my hands?

I have a class that meets twice a week but is mostly filled with student presentations (I've already done mine). The professor sits behind me, limiting my ability to simply surf the internet while not paying attention like I normally do in class. So, I came up with the idea of trying to differentiate units from one another. I could never come up with a good rubric for that (although parts of it live in my definition of "not a totally unique unit") so I became interested in any possible relation between the long term power of a codex compared to the total amount of unit diversity within it. My theory was that armies that can field a wider array of units can better weather the changes in edition, meta game, and scenario.

To do so, I needed a way to determine the total number of units in a codex. To simply add them all up seemed very unsatisfying, most notably with the turret problem. (At what point is a new turret a new unit? Why are annhilators and destructors listed differently while Ionheads and rail heads are one unit? Then I realized that there were options built into many units that were far more profound then in others. The benchmark example is the tactical squad compared to a Necron warrior squad. Tacs have three transpots, necrons sort of 1. Tacs can infiltrate, take specials and/or a heavy, warriors can't. Clearly, to determine the overall diversity of units, some system was needed, to lessen the role of subjectivity.

Of course, this whole exercise is probably pointless. To call it a waste of time, however, would radically overstate the value of my time while sitting through that class...
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




South Pasadena

Polonius, you are awesome! I love your work. Please continue.

Darrian

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

I am pleased! While sort of irrelevant, it is also a very cool bit of analysis for the socially perplexed side of me that loves stacking objects! That and from a game design perspective it really demonstrates the flexibility of different codexes, which is also handy when it comes to choosing a new army.

Well done sir! I expect a full Dakka article for every codex detailing each unit's coefficient. If merged with a tactica or two for each codex you would have a monumental work which would be of excellent utility to every player of any game ever. Or just most 40k players.


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Triggerbaby wrote:Do you enjoy stacking objects and are often perplexed by subtle social queues? Because seriously, dude.


Wait, stacking objects isn't fun?

   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

I'm not interested in doing any of the work, but I am of course interested in reaping the benefits of your research once you finish this project.

Standing on the shoulders of giants, and all that.


Question though - Do you think this system (or a similar one) would be useful in analyzing Warhammer Fantasy Battles as well?

   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

One quick note: It’s becoming clear that the range will be between 1 and 5, and it appears that most units that score in the 2.5+ level have two pretty distinct builds. The subjective scale should probably be recalibrated to be 1-5, with 1 being virtually no options, 3 being two full looks, and 5 being 3 or more builds. The scores could be adjusted, but halves and quarters are annoying enough for me already….

I begin my journey of analyzing entire codexes where all 40k begins: Codex: Space Marines. In the interest of full disclosure, I expect this codex to have one of the largest ranges, especially since many of the units have very high diversity.

I start my journey with the HQ: three basic characters, two “levels” of each. With differing wargear and special rules, all three are distinct from each other. The two levels, however, are not distinct, and merely count as a Major Option for the unit.

Command:
Unit +1
Profile boost +1/2
Full range of assault weapons +1/4
Powerful short range shooting weapons +1/4
Enhanced Defense +1/4
Enhanced Mobility +1/2

Total: 2.75

This seems a little high, but comes in under 3. In practice, there are two main uses of commanders: assault and leadership node. There are also three main layouts: solo and naked, tooled up with Jump Pack or bike, and with a command or terminator command squad. In short, commanders serve one purpose: leadership. The ability to become a decent, although not overpowering assault unit adds dimension, but not a true second facet to the unit.

Possible change: penalize the short range shooting. Combi-weapons are rarely used, one shot only, and the new result of 2.5 fits perfectly in the “one and a half” builds category that commanders seem to fall into.

Chaplain:
Unit +1
Profile boost +1/2
Full range of assault weapons +1/4
Powerful short range shooting weapons +1/4
Enhanced Defense +1/4
Enhanced Mobility +1/2
Adds option to unit: +1/4 (Holy Relic)
Penalties to Defense and shooting: -1/2

Total: 2.5

The chaplain is an assault character that can be upgraded into being a really good assault character. A cheap chaplain can anchor a command squad, however, and that I think justifies the 2.5 rating.

Librarian:
Unit +1
Profile boost +1/2
Full range of assault weapons +1/4 (includes weapons and pychic powers)
Powerful short range shooting weapons +1/4
Long range shooting +1/4
Enhanced Defense +1/4
Enhanced Mobility +1/2


Total: 2.5

I don’t have a slot for psychic powers, I might add one for miscillanous powers, but the libby here has two roles: using Fear or Fury to clear the underbrush, and getting tooled up for combat.

Command squad:
Unit +1
Range of weapons +1/4
Access to multiple transports +1/2
Can infiltrate +1/4
Can gain Tankhunter or Counter charge +1/4
Morale Boost (Standard bearer and medic) +1/4
Major Profile bump (+1 attack) +1/2
Weapon Swap (+1/2)
Wargear (+1/4)
Area Morale Boost (Standard) +1/2
6++ invulnerable from shooting +1/4
Penalty: 6++ is weak and costly: -1/4

Total: 4.25

Command squads can be (inefficient) shooting platforms, powerful assault units, or linebacker morale boosting squads. The numbers add up here.

Terminator Command Squad
Copycat unit: +0
FOC Change: +1/2
Size Variance +1/4

Total: +3/4
For copy cat units (and termie command squads are just terminator squads missing a guy and bought as an HQ choice), you don’t add up the options the unit has, but rather the diffrerences from the original to the copy. Here, there’s a FOC switch and the ability to take one less man. Even the second one is arguable, since an IC has to be bought. The idea here is that with two small rules in the original entry, there would not need to be a separate entry (as later codices have shown.)

Total HQ: 12.5

Elites

Terminator Squad
Unit +1
Range of weapons + 1/4
Skills +1/4
Transports +1/2

Total: 2.5

Durable, mobile shooters don’t change much with different weapons.

Assault Terminator Squad
Copycat unit +0
Weapon Swap +1/2

Total 0.5

Combined, the terminator squads amount to 3.75, which for a unit that can be choppy or shooty, and appear in two different FOC slots is about right. There is no need to keep them separate, however.

Veteran Squad
Unit +1
Weapon Swap +1/2
Transports +1/2
Altered Profile (+1 A) +1/2
Minor USR +1/4
Weapon Range +1/4
Wargear (+1/4)
May add apothecary +1/4
6++ invulnerable from shooting +1/4
Penalty: 6++ is weak and costly: -1/4
May gain infiltrate +1/4

Total: 3.75

Dreadnought
Unit +1
Weapon Swap (DCCW for ML) +1/2
Range of weapons (AC & LC) +1/4
Major Special rule (Venerable plus tankhunter) +1/2
Transport +1/4
Armory +1/4
FOC Swap: +1/2
Total: 3.25

Techmarine:
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap +1/4
Armory +1/4
May add retinue +1/2
Transport s +1/2
FOC swap/+1 wound: +1/2

Total 3

Techmarines have multiple uses, all of them sort of weak, but it’s a pretty varied unit.

Total elites: 13


Troops

Tactical Squad
Unit +1
Range (bonus for multiple specials) +1/2
Transports +1/2
Minor USR +1/4
Weapon Swap +1/2
Wargear +1/4
Infiltrate: +1/4
May add apothecary +1/4

Total: 3.5

Scouts:
Unit +1
Range of weapons +1/4
Transport +1/4
Minor USR +1/4
Weapon Swap +1/2
Wargear +1/4
Total: 2.5

Total Troops: 6

Fast Attack:

Assault Squad:
Unit +1
Range:+1/4
Minor USR +1/4
May remove jump packs: +1/2
Wargear: +1/4

Total: 2.5

Land Speeder squadron:
Unit +1
Weapon Range +1/4
Weapon Swap +1/2
Size Variability +1/2

Total 2.25

Bike Squadron:
Unit +1
Range:+1/2
Minor USR +1/4
Wargear: +1/4
FOC Swap: +1/2

Total: 2.5

Attack Bikes:
Unit +1
Range: +1/4
Minor USR: +1/4

Total: 1.5

Scout Bikes
Unit +1
Minor USR +1/4
Wargear: +1/4
FOC Swap: +1/2

Total: 2.0
Total Fast Attack: 10.75

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad:
Unit +1
Range +1/4
Transport +1/4 (nobody uses these in pods)
Minor USR +1/4
Wargear +1/4
Infiltrate: +1/4

Total: 2.25

Predator Annihilator:
Unit: +1
Range (Sponsons): +1/4
Armory: +1/4

Total: 1.5

Predator Destructor:
Copycat unit: +0
Weapon Swap (Turret): +1/2

Total: +0.5

Vindicator
Copycat unit: +0
Weapon Swap (Turret): +1/2

Total: +0.5

Whirlwind:
Unit: +1

Total: 1

Land Raider:
Unit +1
Armory: +1/4
Total: 1.25

Land Raider Crusader:
CopyCat Unit: +0
Weapon Swap (sponsons): +1/2
Weapon Range +1/4

Total: 0.75

Total Heavy Support: 6.75

Space marine totals:
HQ: 12.5
Elites: 13
Troops: 6
Fast Attack: 10.75
Heavy Support: 6.75

Total Diversity: 49

Codex enties: 24 Diversity per entry: 2.04
Unique Units: 19 Diversity per unique unit: 2.57

More to come!

Edit:
Space Marine Special Characters:
Shrike:
Unit: +1
Add Shrike’s wing: +1/2

Total: 1.5

Lysander:
Copycat: +0
Teleport Assault: +1/2

Total: +1/2

Tyrannic War Veterans:
Total: 1

Honor Guard
Total: +1

Calgar:
Copycat: +0
Morale: +1/2

Total: +1/2

Total special character diversity: 4.5. Entries: 5 Unique Units: 3.
Revised Space marine Totals:

Total Diversity:53.5

Codex entries: 29 Diversity per entry: 1.84
Unique Units: 22 Diversity per unique unit: 2.43

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/04/09 00:23:07


 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

I'm glad there is at least some interest in what I come up with. I'll be honest, part of me is hoping to find some amazing correlations, while part of me is assuming that I'll come up with bupkis. Still, once I got the system hammered out, anazlying the entire SM codex took less then an hour, and I think that'll be among the hardest.

@Hordini: I think this system is almost better suited to WFB, as often the sole distintion between units is a weapon swap.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

Polonius wrote:@Hordini: I think this system is almost better suited to WFB, as often the sole distintion between units is a weapon swap.



There'd probably be a lot of people interested in that information, too.

You know, just sayin'.

   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Ok, I forgot the special characters. Since none of the SM characters really add anything, I'm going to come back to them. As a general rule, I'll count a special character just like any other unit: test for uniquness, and either give a base unit score of 1 (few special characters have options) and if not unique, add the points for variance from base. For example, Tiggy isn't really different from a base librarian, he's just better. the only difference is a larger area of effect for Fear, so at most he'd get +1/2. Since every codex has specials, I'll probably ignore them on my first pass.
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Hrm. This post seems rather well thought out and fascinating.

Unfortunately my ADD just kicked in, and when I first read the topic I immediately assumed this would be a thread about "Why are all Imperial Guard/Space Marines white males?". Which inspired an idea of a very ethnically and sexually diverse, equal opportunity Guard Regiment.

And I'm gonna go work on that now. Thanks for the idea!

Iorek on Zombie Dong wrote:I know you'll all keep thinking about it. Admit it. Some of you may even make it your avatar


Yup. 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

I now turn to the dread enemy of codex: Space Marines, Codex: Eldar. If my scribbling will reveal anything interesting, it will be in comparing a traditionally flexible codex with one known mostly for staggering specialization. For those that don’t remember, the Space Marines enjoy a diversity to 49, out of 19 Unique units in 23 codex entries. Moving on to the eldar:

HQ:

Autarch:
Unit: +1
Major Assault weapons options: +1/4
Access long range shooting: +1/2
May Enhance Mobility: +1/2
Profile Change (+1 A, +1S): +1/4

Total: 2.5

Farseer:
Unit +1
Major Psychic Powers: +1/2
Major Shooting: +1/2
Mobility: +1/2

Total: 2.5

Warlocks:
Unit +1
May become jetbikes: +1/2
Transport: +1/4
Weapon Swap: +1/4
Range of weapons (psychic powers) +1/4
Minor Rule (spirit seer): +1/4

Total: 2.5

Avatar of Khaine:

Total: 1

HQ total: 8.5

Elites

Striking Scorpions
Unit: +1
Transport: +1/4
May infiltrate: +1/4
Exarch armory & USR: +1/4

Total: 1.75

Fire Dragons:
Unit: +1
Transport +1/4
Exarch armory & USR: +1/4

Total: 1.5

Wraithguard:
Unit +1
Transport: +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2
May add warlock with powers: +1/2
FOC Swap: +1/2
Penalty: Warlock is a no brainer: -1/4

Total: 2.5

Howling Banshees
Unit: +1
Transport +1/4
Exarch armory & USR: +1/4

Total: 1.5

Harlequin Troupe
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Penalty: Weapon swap is a no brainer -1/4
Weapon range: +1/4
Major Special rule (veil of tears): +1/2
Penalty: Shadowseer is a no brainer: -1/4

Total: 1.75

I feel bad penalizing harlies so much, but I’ve never heard, much less seen them fielded without kisses or a shadowseer. Feel free to debate this, but this is a hard hitting assault squad, nothing more.

Total Elites: 9

Troops:

Dire Avengers:
Unit: +1
Transport +1/4
Exarch armory: +1/4
USR (Defend and Bladestorm): +1/4

Total: 1.75

I feel more charitable towards DA, mostly because I don’t think my scheme gives them credit for being both decent shooters and an ok tarpit.

Rangers:
Unit: +1
Pathfinders may gain multiple USRs: +1/2
Penalty: does anybody not upgrade?: -1/4

Total: 1.25

Guardians:
Unit+1
Transport: +1/4
May add warlock with powers: +1/2
Range of heavy weapons: +1/4
Weapon swap: +1/2

Total: 2.5

Guardian Jetbike Squadron:
Unit +1
May Add warlock with powers: +1/2

Total: 1.5

Troops total: 7

Fast Attack

Shining Spears
Unit: +1
Exarch armory: +1/4
USR’s : +1/2

Total: 1.5

Warp Spiders
Unit: +1
May gain deep strike: +1/4
Major USR:1/2
Exarch Armory: +1/4

Total: 2

Swooping Hawks
Unit: +1
Minor Rules: +1/4
Exarch Armory: +1/4

Total: 1.5

Vyper Squadron
Unit: +1
Weapon Range: +1/4
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Armory +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: 2.5

Total Fast Attack: 7.5

Heavy Support

Support Weapon Battery:
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
May Add Warlock with powers: +1/2

Total: 2.0

Dark Reapers:
Unit: +1
Exarch armory: +1/4
Exarch minor rules: +1/4
Transport: +1/4
Penalty: nobody buys the Reapers a ride: -1/4

Total: 1.5

Wraithlord
Unit: +1
Weapon Range: +1/4
Weapon Swap: +1/2

Total: 1.75

I’m being generous here, but it’s ok. Nobody takes the suricats, everybody takes flamers, but I figure the Weapon range also takes into account the wraith sword option. Not a bad score for a unit that is always flamer x2, EML & Bright Lance.

War Walker Squadron:

Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Armory: +1/4

Total: 2.25

Falcon:
Unit: +1
Weapon swap: +1/4
Weapon Range: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
No brainer penalties: -1/2

Total: 1.5

Again, there are plenty of options for falcons, but 90% of them are the same.

Fire Prism:
Unit +1
Armory +1/4
Weapon Swap +1/4
No brainer Penalty: -1/4

Total 1.25


HQ: 8.5
Elites: 9
Troops: 7
Fast Attack: 7.5
Heavy Support: 11.25

Total diversity: 43.25

Codex Entries: 23 Diversity per Entry: 1.88
Unique Units:


So, while the eldar have a lower diversity per entry then Space Marines, they’re total diversity is actually pretty high. One of the reasons I started this was because the Eldar and Space Marine codices had roughly the same number of entries. Eliminating the non-unique units from the Space Marine list compensates for of the high diversity units in the SM book.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Are there any request for codices to do next? I'm going to tackle an easy one next: necrons. I figure no codex has a lower diveristy then them.

Additionally, if anybody has any criticisms or comments on either my protocol or it's application, please let me know.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Ok, now to satisfy my curioisity: how limited in diversity is Codex Necrons?

HQ:

Necron lord

Unit: +1
Assault option: +1/4
Enhanced Mobility: +1/2
Enhanced Defense +1/4
Major Option (Res Orb): +1/2
Major option: Viel of darkness: +1/2
Penatly: Res Orb no brainer: -1/4

Total: 2.75

Deceiver:
Total: 1

Night Bringer:
Total: 1

HQ total: 4.75

Elites

Pariahs
Total: 1

Immortals:
Unit +1
Fields: +1/4

Total: 1.25

Flayed Ones
Unit +1
Fields: +1/4

Total: 1.25

Elites total: 3.5

Troops:

Necron Warriors
Unit +1
Fields: +1/4
Monolith Reserves: +1/4

Total: 1.5

Troops total: 1.5

Fast Attack:

Wraiths
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: 1.5

Destroyers:
Unit: +1

Scarab Swarms
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Fields: +1/4
Total: 1.75

Fast Attack total: 4.25

Heavy Support

Tomb Spiders:
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Multiple Units: +1/2

Total: 2

Heavy Destroyers
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: 1.5

Monolith:
Total: 1

Total Heavy Support: 4.5

HQ: 4.75
Elites: 3.5
Troops: 1.5
Fast Attack: 4.25
Heavy Support: 4.5

Total diversity: 18.5

Codex Entries: 13 Diversity per Entry: 1.42
Unique Units: 13
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





Los Angeles

Polonius wrote:One quick note: It’s becoming clear that the range will be between 1 and 5, and it appears that most units that score in the 2.5+ level have two pretty distinct builds. The subjective scale should probably be recalibrated to be 1-5, with 1 being virtually no options, 3 being two full looks, and 5 being 3 or more builds. The scores could be adjusted, but halves and quarters are annoying enough for me already….


If halves and quarters are annoying you and getting in the way, then just multiply all values by 4 and be done with it.

My one criticism of the setup you have going here is that I do not believe that you give enough weight to what weapon options bring to a unit. The difference between guardians with catapults and heavy weapon vs guardians with sword and pistol is huge. Same thing goes for a tac squad with flamer, melta, and rhino vs a tac squad with las/plas. In a lot of situations, the weapons given a unit really dictate what their battlefield role is and it can make a major difference. To this end, you may want to add in an extra 1/4 point (or just make the bonuses range from 1/4 to 1/2 to 3/4 or even 1) for weapon options that completely change the role of the unit.

Just my 2 cents.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/04/08 23:19:08


**** Phoenix ****

Threads should be like skirts: long enough to cover what's important but short enough to keep it interesting. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





San Jose, CA

Very interesting analysis.
Personally I would like to see Orks done next, and then perhaps Tyranids.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Phoenix wrote:
Polonius wrote:One quick note: It’s becoming clear that the range will be between 1 and 5, and it appears that most units that score in the 2.5+ level have two pretty distinct builds. The subjective scale should probably be recalibrated to be 1-5, with 1 being virtually no options, 3 being two full looks, and 5 being 3 or more builds. The scores could be adjusted, but halves and quarters are annoying enough for me already….


If halves and quarters are anoying you and getting in the way, then just multiply all values by 4 and be done with it.


Good tip, I've thought about it, and I think I"m more concerend with the false precision of 1/8's then anything else.

In addition, one weak point in my reasoning is the initial values, particularly the arbitrary 1 to start. At the core of my reasoning is this assumption: that a squad that, for example, can take heavy and/or special weapons, take a transport, and add some wargear can result in two distinct (not unique!) units. To use an example: My system assumes that a tactical squad with plasma, lascannon, and bolters is a distinct unit from a tactical squad with double flamer, rhino, and a powerfist. I think that in game, this works out, and the necron codex clearly shows that some units really have no options: a monolith is a monolith, no matter what you try to do with it. I've tried to work out combat "roles" more then power, as I think that's the real way to differentiate diversity.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Next up, Codex: Dark Angels, to see what the difference between it and Codex: Space Marines shakes out to. I’m expecting a lower diversity score, of course, due to fewer units, lack of veteran skills, etc. On the other hand, DA do have some unique special characters and some pretty flexible formations.

A note on Combat squads: No unit in the codex will be penalized for not being able to be fielded in a full range of sizes. However, no unit will gain any advantage from the Combat Squads rule. As an ability that is standard, and does not need to be declared on a roster, it is simply an inherent rule, not a roster option. While this may artificially inflate some squads diversity number, I don’t think it will be a large problem.

HQ:
Azrael
Total: 1

Belial:
Unit: 1
Range: +1/4

Total: 1.25

Sammael
Unit: 1
Change Type: +1

Total: 2.0

Ezekial
Total: 1

Interrogator Chaplain:
Copycat unit: +0
Enhanced Defense: +1/4
Major Profile bump: +1/2

Total: 0.75

Company Master:
Unit: +1
Range of Assault weapons: +1/4
Enhanced Mobility: +1/2

Total: 1.75

Chaplain:
Unit: +1
Range of assault weapons +1/4
Enhanced Mobility: +1/2

Total: 1.75

Librarian:
Unit: +1
Enhanced Defense: +1/4
Enhanced mobility: +1/2

Total: +1.75

Command squad:
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Major Range of weapons: +1/2
Apothecary: +1/4
Standard: +1/2
Transports: +1/2

Total: 3.25

Total HQ: 14.5

Elites:

Deathwing Terminator Squad
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4
FOC Swap: +1/2

Total: 2.25

Dreadnought:
Unit +1
Weapon Swap (DCCW for ML) +1/2
Range of weapons (AC & LC) +1/4
Major Special rule (Venerable) +1/2
Transport +1/4

Total: 2.5

Techmarine:
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap +1/4
Armory +1/4
May add retinue +1/2
Transport s +1/2

Total 2.5

Company Veterans Squad
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Major Weapon Range: +1/2
Transports: +1/2
Invulnerable save: +1/2

Total: 3.0

Scouts
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4
Armory: +1/4
Transport: +1/4

Total: 2.25

Total Elites: 12

Troops:

Tactical Squad:
Unit: +1
Transports: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
Weapon Range: +1/4

Total: 2.0

Total Troops: 2.0

Fast Attack

Assault Squad:
Unit: +1
Armory (Fist for sgt, PPs for squad): +1/4
May Change Type: +1/2

Total: 1.75

Ravenwing Attack Squadron:
Unit: +1
Add different element: +1/2
Size Variance: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
Range: +1/2
FOC Swap: +1/2

Total: 3.25

Ravenwing Support Squadron:
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4

Total: +2.25

Total Fast Attack: 6.75


Heavy Support

Devastator Squad:
Unit +1
Range +1/4
Transport +1/2
Wargear +1/4

Total: 2.0

Predator Annihilator:
Unit: +1
Range (Sponsons): +1/4
Weapon Swap (Turret): +1/2
Armory: +1/4

Total: 2.0

Vindicator
Copycat unit: +0
Weapon Swap (Turret): +1/2

Total: +0.5

Whirlwind:
Unit: +1

Total: 1

Land Raider:
Unit +1
Armory: +1/4
Total: 1.25

Land Raider Crusader:
CopyCat Unit: +0
Weapon Swap (sponsons): +1/2
Weapon Range +1/4

Total: 0.75

Total Heavy Support: 6.5


HQ: 14.5
Elites: 12.5
Troops: 2.0
Fast Attack: 7.25
Heavy Support: 6.5

Total diversity: 42.75

Codex Entries: 24 Diversity per Entry: 1.78
Unique Units: 21 Diversity per Unit: 2.04

So, as expected the DA have a lower raw diversity, as well as a lower diversity per unit. What was unexpected was how close the DA kept it. Also, I was suprised at how many entries the DA actually had, although 4 of those are special characters. Recalculating the DA, not counting the special characters, gives the following:

Total diversity: 37.75

Codex Entries: 20 Diversity per Entry: 1.89
Unique Units: 17 Diversity per Unit: 2.22

This gives an even lower raw diversity, but actually creeps the diversity per unit up quite a bit.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

By popular request, a break down of codex orks (the have a total diversity of 51.5, a new high.
Orks

HQ

Warboss
Unit: +1
Enhanced Defense: +1/4
Enhanced Mobility: +1/2
Weapons Options +1/4
Morale booster: +1/4

Total: 2.25

Big Mek
Unit: +1
Long Range shooting option: +1/2
Assault/Short range weapons: +1/4
Enhanced defense: +1/4
Enhanced Mobility: +1/2
Kustom Force Field: +1/2

Total: 3.0

Weirdboy
Unit +1
Warphead upgrade (virtually mandatory): +0

Total: +1

Ghazghkull Thraka:
Total: +1

Old Zogwort:
Total: +1

Mad Dok Grotsnik:
Total: +1

Wazdakka Gutsmek:
Total: +1

HQ Total: 10.25

Elites

Burna Boys
Unit: +1
Range of weapons: +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: 1.75

Nobs
Unit: +1
Enhanced Defense: +1/4
Change Type: +1/2
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Morale: +1/4
Transport: +1/2
Range: +1/4
FOC Swap: +1/4
Add Painboy: +1/4
Add 5++: +1/2
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: 4.5

Meganobz:
CopyCat unit: +0
Enhanced Defense: +1/2

Total: 0.5

Tankbustas:
Unit: +1
Range: +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2
Armory: +1/4

Total: 2.0

Lootas
Unit: +1
Range: +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: 1.75

Kommandos:
Unit: +1
Range: +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
May Add Boss Snikrot: +1/2

Total: 2.5

Total Elites: 13

Troops:

Boys
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4
Transport: +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
Morale: +1/4
Enhanced Defense: +1/4

Total: 3.25

Grots
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Armory: +1/4

Total: 1.75

Total Troops: 5.0

Fast Attack

Bikerz Mob
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
FOC Swap: +1/2

Total: 2.25

Buggies
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: 2.25

Stormboys
Unit: +1
Add Zagstruck: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: 2.25

Deffkoptas:
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Range: +1/4
Weapon Swap: +1/2

Total: 2.25

Total Fast Attack: 9

Heavy Support

Battlewagon:
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4
Change Type: +1/2

Total: 2.25

Deff Dread
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
FOC Swap: +1/2

Total: 2

Killa Kans
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Weapon Swap: +1/2

Total: 2.0

Flash Gitz
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
May add Badrukk: +1/2
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Painboy: +1/4
5++: +1/2

Total: 3.25

Big Guns
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Slaver: +1/4
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: +2.25

Looted Wagons
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4
Change Type: +1/2

Total: 2.25

Total Heavy Support: 14

Total HQ: 10.25
Total Elites: 13
Total Troops: 5.0
Total Fast Attack: 9.0
Total Heavy Support: 14

Total Diversity: 51.25

Codex Entries:25 (4 SC): Div/entry: 2.05

Unique Units: 24 (4 SC) Div/ UU: 2.14

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Chaos should be the next...
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Chaos isn't going to be next, unfortunatly. Since I happen to have all the pertinent info on my laptop, I'll do that one while I"m in class (by coincidence, I had all the Ork info on my laptop today in class...). Since I sort of have a life over the weekend, I'll probably not get to it until monday. Over the next day or so I might get on with a few more codices, probably hitting tyranids and IG next.
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





Mayhem Comics in Des Moines, Iowa

Ow. My brain hurts.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

Pretty damn awesome!
One really good potential use for this information is as an idea of what armies are good for new players. It seems pretty obvious that Necrons and Dark Angels are pretty decent armies for new players based on the idea that getting them lost in details is bad. Granted, some people like piles of options, but a lot of folks get bogged down in them and get confused when they are trying to learn new rule sets too.
(Not to say that I would go anywhere near such armies... :-P)
Still, if a new player were to have a list like this, they could easily determine for themselves what sort of army they may want to look at. If they were the option adverse type, they would know where to look, instead of solely basing the decision on "These guys look cool."


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

the more time I spend with this, the less certain I am how useful the information will actually be. Even in terms of helping out noobs, I'm not sure that I'd recommend Necrons before, say, Space Marines. I think complexity of rules and subtelty of tactics are more crucial for first armies (not to mention the savviness of the new player) then any amount of options built into the codex.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

Well, that is true, since Marines are pretty good at everything, etc. But at the same time, I am thinking of the previous edition of the Chaos SM codex. It has SO many options that new players can get overwhelmed in a hurry. Compared to Necrons (ignoring for a moment special rules) who can be summed up as "This unit does X. That's all. This unit does Y. That's all." etc., it would work.
Now, for a REALLY comprehensive guide you would need a scale for complexity of special rules and tactics. This, however would be a good starting point for someone who was just getting into the game and wanted to get an army that was not going to make him insane going through options and building minis. I suspect most new players would be ticked if they modeled all their Vet. Sgts with gear they later discover is a really bad combination, etc.


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

You raise a few points that have been rolling around in my head.

1) While complexity may lead to a player taking bad options for a generally good unit (Vet Sarges with PP and Power weapon, for example, or Crisis suits with Flamer/Burst cannon), is that really worse then a player investing heavily into a simple unit that's simply not very goot (Ogryn, Necron Wraiths). I think as time goes on, and the codices are being weeded out of truly bad units, I think that simple, decent units are going to be easier for new players. I mean, is there a truly awful unit in DA, eldar, or Orks?

2) My methodology really only measure if the unit has an option, and how profound that option is. It does not measure how broad the option is. therefore, Assault squads got 1/4pt for having a weapon range (PP and flamer), while Tactical squads get the same 1/4 for having five heavies and 3 assault weapon options. To a certain extent, the debate is spurios (I'd wager that 90% of all heavies in tactical squads are lascannons), but there is some value to it.

Were I to really tackle this problem, I would value not each field of options, but each option individually, and give each option (take a powerfist, add melta bombs, take a plasma cannon, etc.) a value for how it alters the nature of the squad. 1/4 for adding a wrinkle to the squad (a powerfist on an assault squad gives it a more legitimate range of assault targets). 1/2 for adding and entirely new role and/or target (a lascannon allows a tac squad to at least try to tackle heavy armor). +1 for completely changing the nature of the squad. (nobz to nob bikers)

If I were to do this, I would drop the fractions (which seems to be a popular suggestion anyway) and assign decimal values to each option. Adding, say, a Missile launcher to a tac squad would add .2, as it makes the squad slightly better at anti infantry while at least being capable of taking on armor. A lascannon would add .3, as it makes the squad half decent at taking on armor. You quickly run into problems with overlapping options, of course. I mean, how much variety is added by being able to take Multi meltas, missile launchers, and lascanons?

Finally, to what extent are units assumed to have at least one decent combat role? I mean, every squad gets +1 just for being on the table, but most units are pretty useless without at least some of their options. Should we assume that squads take some sort of "default" weapon, or have a default role? I mean, by it's very nature a tactical squad is built to take on virtually any combat role. Generally only squads with no hard and fast role have wide ranges, and I think that is built into the value of the unit intially.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

All right, out of a perverse desire to keep this lunacy alive, I've churned through Codex: Chaos Space Marines:
HQ
Abaddon:

Total: 1

Fabius Bile

Total: 1

Huron Blackheart

Total: 1

Typhus

Total: 1

Kharn

Total: 1

Ahriman

Total: 1

Lucius

Total: 1

Greater Daemon

Total: 1

Daemon prince
Unit: +1
Enhanced Mobility: +1/2
Major Stat Changes: +1/2
Pysker Powers: +1/2

Total: 2.5

Chaos Lord
Unit: +1
Major State Changes: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/2
Enhanced Moblity: +1/2
Enhanced Defense: +1/4

Total: 2.75

Chaos Sorcerer:
Unit +1
Psyker Powers: +1/2
Enhanced Mobility: +1/2
Enhanced Defense: +1/4
Major state Change: +1/2

Total: 2.75

HQ Total: 16 (9 not in special characters)

Elites

Chosen:
Unit +1
Morale Boost: +1/4
Major State boost: +1/2
Enhanced Defense: +1/2
Weapon range: +1/4
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Transport: +1/4

Total: 3.25

Chaos Terminators
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Major State Boost: +1/2
Enhanced Defense: +1/4
Transport: +1/4
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4

Total: 3.25

Possessed:
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Major State Boost: +1/2
Enhanced Defense: +1/4
Transport: +1/4

Total: 2.5


Chaos Dreadnought:
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4
Armory: +1/4

Total: 2.0

Total Elites: 11

Troops:

Chaos Space Marines:
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
Weapon Range: +1/4
Transport: +1/4
Major Stat boost: +1/2
Enhanced defense: +1/2
Enhanced Morale: +1/4

Total: 3.5

Plague Marines:
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/4
Armory: +1/4
Weapon Range: +1/4
Transport: +1/4

Total: 2.0

Noise Marines:
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/4
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range/Armory: +1/4
Transport: +1/4

Total: 2.25

Berzerkers
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/4
Weapon Range/Armory: +1/4
Transport: +1/4

Total: 1.75

Thousand Sons
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/4
Psyker Powers: +1/2
Transport: +1/4

Total: 2.0

Lesser Daemons:
Total: 1

Total Troops: 13.5

Fast Attack

Chaos Bikers
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/4
Armory: +1/4
Weapon Range: +1/4
Major Stat boost: +1/2
Enhanced defense: +1/2
Enhanced Morale: +1/4

Total: 3.0

Raptor Squad:
Unit: +1
Armory: +1/4
Weapon Range: +1/4
Major Stat boost: +1/2
Enhanced defense: +1/2
Enhanced Morale: +1/4

Total: 3.0

Chaos Spawn:
Total: 1.0

Fast Attack Total: 7.0

Heavy Support:

Chaos Havocs:
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2
Armory: +1/4
Weapon Range: +1/4
Transport: +1/4
Major Stat boost: +1/2
Enhanced defense: +1/2
Enhanced Morale: +1/4

Total: 3.5

Obliterator Cult
Unit: +1
Size Variance: +1/2

Total: 1.5

Chaos Predator
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4
Armory: +1/4
Daemonic Possession: +1/4

Total: 2.25

Chaos Vindicator
Unit: +1
Armory: +1/4
Daemonic Possession: +1/4

Total: 1.5

Chaos Defiler
Unit: +1
Weapon Swap: +1/2
Weapon Range: +1/4

Total: 1.75

Chaos Land Raider
Unit: +1
Armory: +1/4
Daemonic Possession: +1/4

Total: 1.5

Total Heavy Support: 12

Total Diversity: 59.5
Total Codex Entries: 30
Total non Special Character Codex Entries: 23
Total Unique Units: 30
Total Non-SC Unique Units: 23

So, Chaos is the new leader for overall diversity, although I"m sorely tempted to handle special characters in a different way, as seven specials really help the total. In addition, the Eldar will get right back into it against Orks and Chaos when you add in eight non-avatar special characters. that said, all of the new books have a half dozen or more specials, so I think it'll work out, and they really do add a certain amount of diversity.

What is interesting is that when you look at the four "core" armies I've done so far (SM, eldar, orks, chaos) they are all really close in total diversity, number of unique units, etc.

At some point, I'd be tempted to tackle the old Chaos book, and see what it's diversity was.


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





A couple things with the Chaos codex -

Beserkers are pretty much a copycat unit, same as vindicators (You penalized the Marine codex for that).

You gave lots of different boosts for the marks/icons, but they are exclusive so they aren't really worth the +1 1/4 per unit that you are giving them.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH


Thanks for catching the vindicator, that was a mistake.

Are you saying berzerkers copy off of CSM? they are +1 WS and attack, gain Furious Charge and Fearless, and can take a second weapon (admittedly only PP) even if less then 10 men strong. Even stacked side by side with a 10 man CSM squad with MoK, the +1 WS, Fearless and furious charge would seperate them, IMO.

As for icons/marks: this is a really touch call. Clearly, the unit cannot take both, say, a major stat boost from MoK and enhanced defence from MoT at the same time. That's not the point of this anaylsis: it's not to see how many things at once a unit could do (otherwise I'd give oblits tons of points) but how many different builds can be created. If anything, any unit with access to Icons is shortchanged in terms of diversity. Compare Raptors with MoT with Raptors with MoK: these are two units that now shine in different areas. It's similar to many other areas: taking a jump pack eliminates terminator armor as an option, but they both are available options.
   
 
Forum Index » Dakka Discussions
Go to: