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As many know, Phil Kelly was at Adepticon. I attended the morning session on saturday. The main points that I drew from it was:

There will -not- be Space Wolves, this year.

V5 will be out by Christmas.

Planetstrike -is- the next expansion for 40k. With the success of Apocalypse, the bean counters have specificly requested more 'expansions' such as Apocalypse. It was not clear to me from the discussion what would be in Planetstrike but it will not be Spacehulk scaled up to 40k. There will not be an expansion called Space Hulk because Space Hulk has its own identity and is considered a seperate entity. However, Phil Kelly believes that an expansion based on boarding parties, battles on asteroids and abandoned hulks "has legs." There is also another expansion in the works.

He made an analogy between 40k Chaos and Fantasy undead. Many years ago, Fantasy Undead were all in the same army book. The developers at the time felt that while some undead were very popular, other undead were neglected. It was decided to separate the "wet" undead from the "dry" undead and develop the two armies into unique, independant armies. So now we have Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings. He says that is his intention with Chaos. Instead of Daemons being just those ugly blokes that hang around with the Chaos Marines, Daemons would be developed into their own independant identity. They will have their own special characters and so forth and will enjoy a relationship similar to what Imperial Guard, Loyalist Marines, and the Inquisition have.

Ordo Xenos will (barring unforseen future events) never be printed. Instead, there are plans for a complete Inquisition Codex encompasing all three branches, Sisters, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch. When asked about the contradiction in seperating demons from chaos marines and the trimming down of Traitor content and lumping all of the Inquisition into one book, he remarked that there is still far less content in all the Inquisition than in four different chaos gods and twelve different traitor legions.

Plastic plaguebearers and plastic flamers/screamers are a long way off.

That's all that I can remember right off the top of my head but there were a number of things we talked about. There was some fantasy talk, also. Anyhow, if there are any questions about what we spoke about, feel free to ask.

Interesting news, all around. I thought about it, and I think Phil has a point: Chaos always had fistfuls of units, fluff, lists, direction,etc. while the current inquisition books are both barebones lists (Grey Knights and sisters) with some Freakshow support and rules for allies. I think the point that was missed is that at least Sisters players would like their army to become a bona fide army (with models and a codex, just like a real boy) while the more specifically Inquistitorial forces form a second book. Sisters aren't that far removed from Necron style unit selection, and a few clever ideas could really expand one of the more unique armies. Anyways, I think the simple truth is that those really clever ideas aren't forthcoming.

I'm excited about Planetstrike for the same reason I was excited about Apocolypse: I'm a sucker with slightly more time then money, and I like the idea of being able to use models I already own in new ways. I still claim this is why Cities of Death never caught fire the same way: too much time investment in building terrain, while apocolypse was pretty much restricted to bulking up formations and building the compulsory new Baneblade.

As much as it kills me to admit it, the new Chaos Book, and the idea for a seperate Daemon book is growing on me. The real problem for me is that a really fun, sort of viable build was eliminated: the demonbomb army. I still don't agree with the execution, but the concept seems slightly less awful over time.

Any updates on other armies? Dark Eldar, IG, Necrons, and SM rumors are all over the place.

Coming from someone who really didn't play chaos till now (and actually I haven't even played them yet, still building) I don't mind the new CSM codex at all. I read it, came up with a fun theme for my army and that's really all it should be about. I guess it does suck to lose stuff for the older players, guess I'm glad I missed that who fiasco :p

I will get the demon books when they come out as I will most likely be using them for both games.. but I do think it would have been cool if demons & marines in 40k could be allies just like the inquisition stuff. I think most of the games I play will be apoc style since my group is pretty laid back and a lot of folks have 3k armies. So I could still mix them. But still it would be nice if it could be done "officially".

Glad Apoc was a success, can't wait for the next one

Commissar wrote:Any updates on other armies? Dark Eldar, IG, Necrons, and SM rumors are all over the place.

He would not comment on anything that wasn't happening after Christmas. Mordor for LotR is forth-coming. Pressed, he conceeded that Dark Eldar would be coming in the very near future. On the Space Wolves rumor, he said that the studio "really wants to get Space Marines right" and after that would look at the other Loyalist Chapters. He didn't come out and say it but he implied that Space Marines codex would come out before Space Wolves and we would be seeing the Space Marine codex soon.

Some slow always has to ask about Squats, Squats are not coming. No information on IG or Necrons. I would speculate that they are not currently in progress. Getting Space Marines right is the current focus of the studio.

Also, about Apocalypse and the Space Marines codex. Phil Kelly spoke at length about how, more and more, 40k's focus seemed to be moving toward tournament and league play. While a very very vocal minority howled about game balance (and rightly so) there was a silent majority of their players that just wanted to throw down miniatures, enjoy a relatively balanced game, and throw back some beer afterward.

Where the first group of players (the tourney and league players) cannot choose their opponents in most cases and must rely on a very exact rulesset to arbitrate any conflicts, the second group (casual, familiar players) have the luxury of planning things out in advance. If a unit or combination of units proves to be too powerful, casual players can just decide not to include that combination in future games. Or even change the rules to fit their needs. Codex Space Marines should be designed with the first group in mind and then Apocalypse with the second group in mind. The first group will get a simpler but clearer Codex system and the second group will get expansions that increase the options available in the core Codexes.

At least that is how I interpretted his comments.

No one asked why his Codex's in 40k are so much more powerful than the ones by other designers?

Asking about the squats was actually sort of funny back when GW felt bad about pulling support from armies, games, etc. Now, it's just sort of sad, like the guys in trucker hats that say "the South will rise again."

redstripe wrote:Getting Space Marines right is the current focus of the studio.

Well I for one hope this implies that the new Codex: SM will not be the way the Dark Angels were handled.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

redstripe wrote:Getting Space Marines right is the current focus of the studio.

Well I for one hope this implies that the new Codex: SM will not be the way the Dark Angels were handled.

I asked specificly about that. I asked that if when we get the "right" Codex: SM, would those chapter codexes that have already been written be revisitted. He said "Dark Angels, you mean?" I said yes and asked if he felt Dark Angels had inheritted any problems from the "wrong" Codex: SM. He said "No, we're happy with Dark Angels."

Nice set of rumours, I would be very happy to see Dark Eldar this year so I can get myself a new army. Or an army, for that matter

redstripe wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

redstripe wrote:Getting Space Marines right is the current focus of the studio.

Well I for one hope this implies that the new Codex: SM will not be the way the Dark Angels were handled.

I asked specificly about that. I asked that if when we get the "right" Codex: SM, would those chapter codexes that have already been written be revisitted. He said "Dark Angels, you mean?" I said yes and asked if he felt Dark Angels had inheritted any problems from the "wrong" Codex: SM. He said "No, we're happy with Dark Angels."

Well I guess he would be happy with the Dark Angels, I mean all his Xenos codex's need SOME kind of opponent to use for target practice.

Did anyone bring something up about the 5th Ed rules?

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Did anyone bring something up about the 5th Ed rules?

Yes. His major points about V5 was that it would be more objective focused than victory point focused. He wanted to move the game from lots and lots of elite troops back to normal troops instead of people just fielding their compulsory two.

He says that in the studio, he champions the "horde" armies. He would like to see small arms become more useful instead of people trying to pack as many lascannons as they can in a list.

His other point would be that line of sight would be much more intuitive. Instead of having all kinds of different heights of terrain and such, line of sight would be the actual uninterrupted, point-to-point path of a weapon.

Objectives and Line-of-sight were the two issues he discussed when that question was brought up.

Also, the Forgeworld Lord of Change is forthcoming.

This all sounds about right:
- the December slot goes to WFB / LotR
- 40k5 confirmed for summer
- Apocalypse a resounding success, hence the rush job on Warhammer Legendary Battles and Planetstrike next year (yay for plastic Valkyrie!)
- duh for splitting CSM from Daemons - what's done is done.
- hopefully, GW will trim the nonsense / made-up units from the combined Inquisition Codex (e.g. GK as Troops).

I think the IG book, when it finally comes around, will be awesome.

To be fair, DA get better in 5th, and as far as I can see, Eldar get worse, since the best builds have always been MSU.

Edit: Was addressing Voodoo Boyz.

What are you suggesting about GKs? That they should be
Elites?

Getting Space Marines "right" means not having Jervis write the Codex, right?

Right?

redstripe wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

redstripe wrote:Getting Space Marines right is the current focus of the studio.

Well I for one hope this implies that the new Codex: SM will not be the way the Dark Angels were handled.

I asked specificly about that. I asked that if when we get the "right" Codex: SM, would those chapter codexes that have already been written be revisitted. He said "Dark Angels, you mean?" I said yes and asked if he felt Dark Angels had inheritted any problems from the "wrong" Codex: SM. He said "No, we're happy with Dark Angels."

Reading all this, what I gather is that Codex: SM will look a lot like the new format (Eldar, DA, BA, Chaos, etc), simplified Codex for the tournament & league players who like their rules clear beyond a reasonable doubt. To achieve this nirvana of rules you have to limit a clear set of boundaries for options.

Could the Space Marines comments mean that maybe GW is looking into a Chaos Codex solution for Loyalists? In other words, other than a few "playtest" versions (BA, DA) they will roll the rest of the loyalist Marines into a single codex this year? Wouldn't that make a lot of sense after what they have done with Chaos and Phil Kelly's words??

Did anyone think to ask him why GW can't seem to be bothered with writing FAQ'a for all their codexes, which seem to have been edited by a spider monkey with a red crayon?

Eric

I like what I hear. I got back into 40k thanks to the new Chaos Marine book, and I think they got the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels just right. In fact, all of the new books are good in my opinion - clear, effective, and they focus the player on tactics as well as mucking around with strategy.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the 'forward'-compatibility of the latest crop of armies works out. It's already interesting to read clues like the reference to the run rule in the Chaos Dreadnought Crazed rules.

I'm excited to see what they do with the Imperial Guard, Tyranids, and Necrons

Was there any word on chaos legion specific codexs? Like world eaters or thousand sons?

lol @ nurglitch mentioning tactics and strategy being 'reborn' with the new books.

This is like saying making everyone use the same chess pieces makes chess more interesting.

I 'grew up' from chess decades ago, when I was a kid. Too g-d damn simple. I play this game because it isn't so dumbed down the average man can play it.

it's stupidity on GW's part to believe they CAN dumb 40k down enough to play it.

Didn't work with DND, or Magic, or anything else really--it's always the same core group that plays.

Now if they can translate all of 40k into an online game like WOW and stop selling minis completely...then maybe they're on the right track.

lol tactics and strategy indeed.

Stelek wrote:
I 'grew up' from chess decades ago, when I was a kid. Too g-d damn simple. I play this game because it isn't so dumbed down the average man can play it.

I'm sorry Stelek, you know i'm a fan of your posts. But this one is just priceless!!! You have to acknowledge that you just said warhammer 40k is a more evolved game than chess is. And you also just said that chess bored you when you were a kid because it was too simple. Either you are Bobby Fisher, or your hyperbolic sensor is malfunctioning again!

back to topic...

Did anyone ask if a shoota boy nob can have a power klaw?

I'm surprised that Stelek hasn't copped to outwitting Chuck Norris in Russian Roulette...

Chess bores me. You can memorize it to death, and beat most 'joe blo' right out the door. Without getting ranked, you can't find any competition.

At least in 40k (or really, most any modern gaming) you can at least have fun while beating the dickens out of someone.

Winning in chess, for me, is less exciting than having a good read on the toilet.

I think we should take what red stripe has said with a grain of salt. For instance I think DE are at least 1.5 to 2 years off based on what Phil said. His analogy was look how long it took the studio to finally get wood elves right. I am guessing Chaos legions are at least 2 to three years off. Phil did say that troops will play a much more important role in V edition but could not say what would be a typical percentage of these units you will need in V edition to be competitive. I hate to see so much speculation based on improper reports.

G

No one asked Phil Kelly if Shoota Mob Nobs could take a Power Klaw?

In an effort to -not- antagonize him, I did not ask about the FAQs. In my mind, the FAQs are what they are, take them or leave them. I wasn't there to lynch him, but to ask him questions about the current studio design philosophy.

One of the core precepts Phil explained in the studio philosophy is that they lost their way pursuing the desires of the tournament and league players. The core of their consumers, however, are casual, garage players. These players do not like continuously updated and lengthy FAQs that they have to parse through before every game.

He seemed to be quite content with leaving FAQs to the tourney or league organizers like Adepticon had done.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think we should take what red stripe has said with a grain of salt.

I'm just reporting on what he said. Anything else that I've written that was my own speculation I've tried to mark as such. He did respond to a question about Dark Eldar as "near future."

He eluded to the fact that Dark Eldar are more than likely next after Codex Daemons, not counting the expansions. I forsee DE in october.