Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One thing I hope the look at minutely is higher strength assaulting options. a Commisar w/ PF against a Carnifex is like Paul couples skating with Karl on Aqua Teen

Polonius wrote:Well, I was mostly sarcastic in my post. I think you're right, that it's not exactly noble to speak ill of a child you've never met.

that said, I think that there is a difference between the flesh and blood lil' Jervis and the construct of the interweb that people refer to. It's a shorthand way of alluding to the percieved (not necessarily actual) dumbing down of the hobby in an effort to gain younger players. Now, considering that that's been an issue for 20 years, it's kind of amusing.

Look, I'd never make the joke, because frankly it's just a modern "bring back the squats" sort of shibboleth among people most disaffected with GW's managment. I think it's pretty harmless though.

Well said and spot on!

It has definitely become a shorthand for people to express their dislike of the direction we're headed in for 40K...

Hellfury wrote:

yakface wrote:2) The studio has 5th edition FAQs written but are waiting to release them with the new edition. That means all the FAQs for the recent codices will be waiting until that point.

Wait...what?

They have "Frequently asked questions" already made for a new edition that nobody has frequently asked questions about yet??

Um...ok...

This doesn't bode well for 5th edition for me.

Perhaps I am reading too much hyberbole into that, and I probably am, but it sounds really bad at this point.

I think GW has the wrong approach to think of them as FAQs.

If GW referred to them as "5th edition compatibility patches" and wrote them with that in mind, it would make the transition easier. It would also be better for casual players who would be less likely to miss out on vital information.

When people bought a Codex from a GW store, the staff could add the single sheet (front and back sometimes) insert into the Codex at check-out and tell them "This patches it to be compatible with the latest version of the game rules." Certainly in this day and age anyone who ever used a computer could instantly figure out what they meant. Make it available online too, but make sure to include it in the retail chain and to Rogue Trader stores - not everyone is dedicated enough to monitor developments on the internet.

Changing rules to make something work cross-edition isn't a FAQ, and calling it that just confuses the issue and consumers.

Yay My DE will be given the Phil Kelly treatment. Expect Wyches to have rending

Except the Phil Kelly nugget won't be an obvious buff. Instead of wyches getting rending, it'll be something like warp beasts getting infiltrate and 3 wounds or something else similarly unexpected.

Phil said that DE will most likely get to have Harlequins so nix on rending for Wyches. Personally I would like to see Harlequins limited to 0 - 1 choices for both eldar and DE.

G

Except that 5th Edition does away with 0-1 restrictions and mandatory requirements. In general, this is a good thing.

After all, if GW were to try and impose some rarity effect, Space Marines (especially Grey Knights) would hardly ever be fielded, and *that* wouldn't sit well with the suits that run GW.

Ozymandias wrote:I once brought my fiance to GD LA with me and we sat down together for the conversion contest. She had a lot of trouble knowing what was what and even tried to glue a marines body together upside down. We both laughed and I corrected her, but I don't think she was stupid for not knowing how a marine is put together.

But to extend the analogy, you didn't then go and request that GW change all their models so that they were simpler to put together.

BYE

Well, they did do that for the new players. 3rd ed Box set had complicated models that took a long time for novice hobbyists to put together. 4th ed box set had snap-together figures that still looked almost as good (better when you compare it some of the 3rd ed Marines I've seen).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

At first I thought it was JohnHwangDD, but now I think Ozymandias might be Jervis' son...

Can we PLEASE lay off the kid?

I dont think the models that came in the current box were too bad. If you paint them well enought they are hard to distinguish.

The marine models in the BFM set has a rather odd set of poses, actually.

They well all doing some sort of strange lean to the side.

Or something.

Ozymandias wrote:3rd ed Box set had complicated models that took a long time for novice hobbyists to put together.

Yeah, the landspeeder. Even expert modellers howl in rage when having to assemble that atrocity.

Everything else in that box was relatively self explanatory and easy to build.

Alpharius wrote:At first I thought it was JohnHwangDD, but now I think Ozymandias might be Jervis' son...

Haha, you are so funny! *rollseyes*

I started playing when I was 11-12 and I started with 4th ed Fantasy and a few years later started 2nd ed 40k. 2nd ed came with a great book that had detailed pictures of almost every single weapon in the game as well as the rules. In fantasy it was easy, I already knew what a spear and a bow looked like. It was the 4th ed and 2nd ed rules that tripped us up.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Alpharius wrote:At first I thought it was JohnHwangDD, but now I think Ozymandias might be Jervis' son...

Nah, I know what a Conversion Beamer looks like. Tho it's wierd how Shuricat's don't look like crossbows anymore...

back on topic? I wonder what Wyches will get that will help them compete with Harlequins (beside a raider).

Combat drugs, I guess. Fancy Syberite. +2 Attacks on a 12" charge.

Thanks for the info! Very happy to hear the considerations for Triumvirate =I= Codex!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:I'd be ok if they got rid of Doctrines as long as the good ones came mandatory (like ID and CoD standard) and the rest were just platoons you bought (like "Light Infantry Platoon", "Heavy Infantry Platoon", "Mechanised Platoon", etc.).

I've had that idea for our own Guard Codex, but I really doubt GW is clever enough to even think of that. They'll just cut Doctrines completely, allow Carapace, Grenadiers in some form or another, and maybe Light Infantry, increase the cost of our oh-so-useful power weapons and fists, add a further 5 points to the cost of Plasma Guns and Lascannons, draw some nice pretty pictures for Jervis' kid so he knows the difference between a Vox-Caster and a Leman Russ, and call it a day.

A chilling vision of things to come.

As Ogryns are my pet peeve, I am convinced that when they redo the Guard codex, they'll change nothing about their entry. Oh, except take away the Armory (not that Bone'eads mind, there was nothing there for them). There's a dozen ways to make the unit better and more appropriate for its supposed role, but as surely as the Earth is round, GW will adopt none of those.

I wonder if anyone knew what a melta, or a plasma, or a boltgun was when they started playing this game.

2nd edition had a lovely book that had drawings of all the weapons, thus you knew what was an Autogun, a Needler Sniper Rifle, etc. So I don't exactly know what the peeve is with this, unless some people are so brainwashed into hating the "GW system" that they perceive everything as disrespectful/bad/"GW hatzorz". Funny thing is, users from this site bashed people for being nazi's or whatever because of their paint jobs, but calling other people's kids retards is fine.

Given that, I mostly agree that over-simplification is an issue. I think that they're taking the old adage, "easy to learn, hard to master" into an "easy to learn easy to master (thanks to our one-trick ponies!(tm))" approach.

Destrado wrote:I wonder if anyone knew what a melta, or a plasma, or a boltgun was when they started playing this game.

2nd edition had a lovely book that had drawings of all the weapons, thus you knew what was an Autogun, a Needler Sniper Rifle, etc. So I don't exactly know what the peeve is with this, unless some people are so brainwashed into hating the "GW system" that they perceive everything as disrespectful/bad/"GW hatzorz". Funny thing is, users from this site bashed people for being nazi's or whatever because of their paint jobs, but calling other people's kids retards is fine.

Given that, I mostly agree that over-simplification is an issue. I think that they're taking the old adage, "easy to learn, hard to master" into an "easy to learn easy to master (thanks to our one-trick ponies!(tm))" approach.

I know you weren't trying to start anything, but I think it's clear to point out that the joke isn't "lil Jervis isn't smart," but rather "Jervis is dumb to design rules for veteran wargamers based on what an 8 year old says." It would be like Steve Jobs remarking that his dog can't operate an Ipod, so they're redesigning it. Nobody thinks the dog is dumb, they would think that Jobs is foolish.

Polonius wrote:

Destrado wrote:I wonder if anyone knew what a melta, or a plasma, or a boltgun was when they started playing this game.

2nd edition had a lovely book that had drawings of all the weapons, thus you knew what was an Autogun, a Needler Sniper Rifle, etc. So I don't exactly know what the peeve is with this, unless some people are so brainwashed into hating the "GW system" that they perceive everything as disrespectful/bad/"GW hatzorz". Funny thing is, users from this site bashed people for being nazi's or whatever because of their paint jobs, but calling other people's kids retards is fine.

Given that, I mostly agree that over-simplification is an issue. I think that they're taking the old adage, "easy to learn, hard to master" into an "easy to learn easy to master (thanks to our one-trick ponies!(tm))" approach.

I know you weren't trying to start anything, but I think it's clear to point out that the joke isn't "lil Jervis isn't smart," but rather "Jervis is dumb to design rules for veteran wargamers based on what an 8 year old says." It would be like Steve Jobs remarking that his dog can't operate an Ipod, so they're redesigning it. Nobody thinks the dog is dumb, they would think that Jobs is foolish.

Dogs don't listen to Ipods, 10-12 year old kids do play 40k.....

Ozymandias wrote:Well, they did do that for the new players. 3rd ed Box set had complicated models that took a long time for novice hobbyists to put together. 4th ed box set had snap-together figures that still looked almost as good (better when you compare it some of the 3rd ed Marines I've seen).

But the originals still existed. It's not like they got rid of one and replaced it with another.

BYE

Pariah Press wrote:Can we PLEASE lay off the kid?

You're Jervis' son!!!!



Sorry... couldn't resist.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:Can we PLEASE lay off the kid?

You're Jervis' son!!!!



Sorry... couldn't resist.

BYE

I wish my dad was as cool as Jervis!

Pariah Press wrote:Can we PLEASE lay off the kid?

I'm gonna give a quick vote for "No."

it's already been covered but I'll put it in even simpler terms. Think of "Lil Jervis" as the new "Drooling Fanboy".

It's 100% deserved and 100% accurate. People like Jervis really need to figure out that if they're going to say dumb like this, then people are going to beat them in the virtual mouth with it... repeatedly.

They really need to start working on a "all of the stupid left when we fired Gav" angle and stick with it.

Blackheart666 wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:Can we PLEASE lay off the kid?

I'm gonna give a quick vote for "No."

it's already been covered but I'll put it in even simpler terms. Think of "Lil Jervis" as the new "Drooling Fanboy".

It's 100% deserved and 100% accurate. People like Jervis really need to figure out that if they're going to say dumb like this, then people are going to beat them in the virtual mouth with it... repeatedly.

They really need to start working on a "all of the stupid left when we fired Gav" angle and stick with it.

Do tell, what dumb stuff did he say?


The only things he's ever said about his child are:

1) that he didn't know what every weapon/wargear looked like because GW over the years had stopped putting full weapon illustrations in their rules.

2) That his son naturally gravitated towards purchasing Mephiston because the model looked cool and that made Jervis realize that cool special characters help to define an army.


Both points are completely valid and true.


IMHO, far more dumb stuff is said on the internet by anonymous posters who have since twisted and fabricated the story to fit their own ends.


But to be honest I sometimes think GW needs to "dumb down" the game because so many people can't seem to tell the difference between streamlined army list choices and a game being "dumbed down".

Chess must be the dumbest game in the world because my King always has to have the same wargear every single time.

God forbid someday games of 40K may actually be decided by the game rather than the army lists.

The only reason I know what autocannons, heavy bolters, and lascannons are is because people who play marines have drilled it into my head. The only reason I know what plasma rifles and burst cannons are is because illustrations were provided in the 3rd edition Tau codex. I recall many people going WTF when the cyclic ion blaster and fragmentation burster were released. Hell, I didn't know. I recall bwbits taking a while to sort it out as well.

When the necrons are re-released, and lords are all given necron orbs with an increase in base points, it will be said to have been dumbed down. The same for Hammerheads with their disruption pods (in 5th), and IG with close order. When people decry that they need to take an Eldrad for their harlequin lists the same way DA special chars are needed to take their specialized lists, people will say it was dumbed down. And when you can only take 5 or 10 marines per squad, when troops choices are needed to capture objectives, and when you know you'll only use 10-man squads since 6-man squads are ripped apart pretty easily, it will also be said to have been "dumbed down."

stonefox wrote:, when troops choices are needed to capture objectives, and when you know you'll only use 10-man squads since 6-man squads are ripped apart pretty easily, it will also be said to have been "dumbed down."

No, the only troops scoring is a stupid move towards unbalancing the game, not a dumbed down move.

What exactly is GW's core market?

Can 12 year olds who have trouble understanding the rules and/or figuring out the difference between a melta and a plasma gun really afford this game anymore?

And are their parents really buying x hundreds of dollars of unpainted miniatures for them?

Really?

In almost every game store I've been in, I don't think the age of anyone playing was under 18, and probably averaged somewhere in the min-20's.