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I keep hearing people call 40k and WFB beer and preztel. If this is true what are some examples of fantasy or sci-fi games that are "tactical". And what the heck is the difference?

P.S. Where do AT-43 and Helldorado fall?

Edit: Oops, maybe this should be in the Other games forum?

Fantasy is more tactical than 40k, but yeah, both are somewhat beer & pretzel. I find 40k especially to be a "roll lots of dice and laugh" type of game. The specialist lines tend to have a lot more in terms of strategy & tactics. I haven't played AT-43, but I hear that it's similar to fantasy in terms of tactics, and I can say from experience that warmachine & hordes are along those lines as well (just in different ways).


Steve

The current edition of Epic is far more tactical than Fantasy or 40K.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I keep hearing people call 40k and WFB beer and preztel. If this is true what are some examples of fantasy or sci-fi games that are "tactical". And what the heck is the difference?

P.S. Where do AT-43 and Helldorado fall?

Edit: Oops, maybe this should be in the Other games forum?

No, this is "wargames general discussion" type of area. Its a mixture of everything. Dakka discussions isnt just a GW spot, thank goodness.

40K is beer and pretzel because you cant take it too seriously (even though it takes itself faaaar too seriously). The rules are so shoddy that you simply cant go and use MtG mechanics for the game (which is rules lawyering at its finest precision). So, grab a beer, laugh a bit, (you're gonna need both) sit back, play with some pretty man-dollies. *pew-pew*

AT-43 on the other hand, while having vastly better written rules, is actually an easier read than 40K. The rules are a shining example of how less is more. It is also a far more tactically superior game to 40K in that your opponent has a more active role in the game instead of taking a lunch break while you go through your turn.

AT-43 even uses modifiers. *gasp* You know, that thing that GW says will give kids fits of mathematical confusion?

That said, I still view AT-43 as beer and pretzels as well, because it is pretty simple to play and the game is ready out of the box. The only chart in the whole game, the universal resolution chart, can be easily memorized as opposed to GW multiple charts that they have.

I could go on, but I will just start to go on a huge rant regarding GW, and I dont want to slam on GW. Its too easy. Its like pushing the kids on the short bus around.

[edit]
Warmachine/hordes is pretty good. Its like playing MTG on a tabletop. If you have any experience in Magic: the Gathering, then you may know what I am talking about. To me, its the best of both worlds. Huge amounts of tactics and strategy go into WM/hordes.
[edit#2]
I cannot comment on helldorado, as I dont know if the english rules are even out yet. Are they out? I want to know. But am lazy and will waste away here awaiting someone telling me....

SteveW -Fantasy is more tactical than 40k, but yeah, both are somewhat beer & pretzel. I find 40k especially to be a "roll lots of dice and laugh" type of game.

So succinct. Should replace the Wiki description! Made me really think "Yeaaaah"..Gold mate.

A game of "Diplomacy"(One of the best Tactical games ever) is more 'HighBrow'

In my humble opinion. Just my take on it.

We should all play BattleTech. Nothing quite like having a 6 page document of just modifiers and tables...

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:We should all play BattleTech. Nothing quite like having a 6 page document of just modifiers and tables...

BYE

Hmm...

No thanks.

Kthnxbye

The lovely mind-altering effects of beer and pretzels make one less likely to gripe about crappy rules design.

I highly encourage anyone who wants to be a well-rounded wargamer to try out Squad Leader (or Advanced Squad Leader) and some of those older "chit" games. Many of them were tactical gaming at its mechanical finest, but the visual element left much to be desired. Personally, I'm happier with the man-dolls and more imagination- but it's really apples to oranges there.

Speaking of which, I saw that the Vassal engine has a mod for SL and ASL. Think I might try it next time I travel somewhere boring for business.

Savnock wrote:
Think I might try it next time I travel somewhere boring for business.

You mean there are towns that are without ale and whores?

Perish the thought.

And about Helldorado (large file)

http://www.helldorado.fr/ressources/telechargements/telechargement_id19/fichier.pdf

Hellfury wrote:Hmm...

No thanks.

Kthnxbye

You've never played? It's quite a fun game, especially for those of us who like big stompy robots blowing the crap out of one another.

BYE

Battletech + 1!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Hellfury wrote:Hmm...

No thanks.

Kthnxbye

You've never played? It's quite a fun game, especially for those of us who like big stompy robots blowing the crap out of one another.

BYE

Grand Preceptor ran a game for us once.

I played once. I didn't really like consulting so many tables so many
times in a game.

The upside was that it worked as a one player one mech kind of
game. The downside was that I was pissing tiny lasers at the rear
armor of a bigger mech.

I don't think we won.

The detail was neat, and I liked reading the background, watching the
cartoon, playing the video games. I just didn't fall in love with the
tabletop version.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

You've never played? It's quite a fun game, especially for those of us who like big stompy robots blowing the crap out of one another.

BYE

Thats the problem, I have played the game. It just takes way too long to resolve.

I love the idea of the big stompy robots, but it just never really stuck with me.

I am a bigger fan of the battletech video games.

"Shut down sequence initiated...shutting down"

Battletech was rendered redundant when Mechwarrior came out. Sorry guys.

So how many of you guys play 40k beer pong? Down a shot whenever one of your guys die.

stonefox wrote:Battletech was rendered redundant when Mechwarrior came out. Sorry guys.

Just as 40K was made redundant the moment Final Liberation game out? Or Chaos Gate? Or perhaps Dawn of War?

BYE

Well, HB, I haven't played 40K since '06 so draw your own conclusions.

Noisy_Marine wrote:If this is true what are some examples of fantasy or sci-fi games that are "tactical". And what the heck is the difference?

everyone will have their own opinions on this, i think tactical games require more depth. things like supply lines,espionage and territorial disputes are needed before any game becomes tactical. 40k is just a skirmish game while WFB is a more in depth skirmish game.

its hard to find any sci-fi or fantasy tactical games, its easier to find tactical games based on historic events.
you could start out with a simple game like Bonaparte at Marengo or Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage and work your way up to more in depth games like Europe Engulfed and eventually finish with Advanced Squad Leader (ASL).

MMMMULTI-QUOTE!

SteveW wrote:I find 40k especially to be a "roll lots of dice and laugh" type of game. The specialist lines tend to have a lot more in terms of strategy & tactics.

QFT on the 40k part. 40k is at its best when two painted armies with laidback players throw a bunch of dice and glory when cool stuff happens. From what I know of Epic and Necro, and having played BFG, I totally agree with you on the specialist games = tactics part (BB too I'd guess, as well as Mordheim I suppose though to a lesser extent). INQ on the other hand I play for the shear carnage of all that specific damage, though book keeping becomes exhausting when you're doing it for everybody

Hellfury wrote:[WM is] like playing MTG on a tabletop.

Which is precisely why I don't like the game. Too much picking the established combos you like and making them happen ftw. You can argue this about Fantasy as well but I dislike that aspect of that game as well.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's quite a fun game, especially for those of us who like big stompy robots blowing the crap out of one another.

Agreed. Btech was one of the first games I played, enjoyed the hell out of it. Tried reviving it recently and that fell through, couldn't handle the level of firepower my friends brought and so was just dismantled. Lady Luck slapping me silly didn't help.

stonefox wrote:So how many of you guys play 40k beer pong? Down a shot whenever one of your guys die.

I have only heard rumors of this, though we'll see how booze-soaked the Colonial GT is next Saturday

- Salvage

EDIT -- Ha! Props on the avatar Noisy

Boss_Salvage wrote:

Hellfury wrote:[WM is] like playing MTG on a tabletop.

Which is precisely why I don't like the game. Too much picking the established combos you like and making them happen ftw. You can argue this about Fantasy as well but I dislike that aspect of that game as well.

In many ways, I agree. There are some really seriosly dead stupid combos out there that are nigh...unbeatable.

But for the most part, like MTG, any deck/force build has a counter to it within a number of lists. Some are stronger against others.

I forgot about the BFG game.

Now thats a good game. Totally underrated. Its sex in space, it is.

You really can't call 40K a "Beer and Pretzel" game because a lot of 40K players can't legally drink beer.

...based on it's demographic 40K is more of a "Drink Box and Twizzlers" game?

Boss_Salvage wrote:Agreed. Btech was one of the first games I played, enjoyed the hell out of it. Tried reviving it recently and that fell through, couldn't handle the level of firepower my friends brought and so was just dismantled. Lady Luck slapping me silly didn't help.

Well in an effort to find gaming systems superior to 40K, we switched over to BTech. I already owned a bunch of stuff from a few years back, so getting everyone else into it was easy. Now we have several players all ammasing their libraries of sourcebooks and hordes of models. I put together another 20 'Mechs today, and I'm having a blast - it's nice being able to just bring whatever takes your fancy and not worry that such and such faction can have unit Y because only faction this and that can have it.

In BTech, you can justify pretty much anything.

BYE

As long as we are discussing the glorious virtues of BattleTech, it is worth mentioning that Catalyst's current starter box sets the gold standard on value and playability. Sure, you will want eventually want more variety, but for Level 1 play, 24 'Mechs in plastic is more than you could ever really use at once, and even if you strongly dislike some of the designs, there are still plenty to choose from.

It is also worth noting that if you are playing with mostly 'Mechs, those many many pages of charts and tables required shrink down to the big cards that come in the box as wel.

Hellfury wrote:


Warmachine/hordes is pretty good. Its like playing MTG on a tabletop. If you have any experience in Magic: the Gathering, then you may know what I am talking about. To me, its the best of both worlds. Huge amounts of tactics and strategy go into WM/hordes.

I loved the artwork on the magic cards and the "idea" of the game - you're a wizard casting spells. But I disliked the combo's aspect and random packs of cards. That and all the best lists were on the internet already. And to make them you had to spend an arm and a leg on a few really good cards to make your deck.

It was fun for me when I first started and I was like "Ooh, I summon some skeletons!". Then it turned into "Bah, these skeletons aren't worth the mana cost!" Then the game ceased to be fun.

Which, incidentally, happens to me with WFB and 40K from time to time. It's fun to just sit down and play, but once I start thinking about the points cost of chaos termies versus possessed all the fun just goes out the window. How can the models be so cool and yet the rules suck so much?

Pretzels? Is that what the kids are calling them these days?

That's one stroke against the Warhammer Turn Sequence, it means your opponent bogarts the pretzel!

I suppose that's why God invented Beer Helmets.

Personally, I'm not a beer drinker, but I do love pretzels.

GW games for me were never, ever about competition at all. It's about finding a reason to allow yourself to be 35 and still build models and play with army men. There's a lot of things I've grown to love and hate about the hobby over the last 14 years or so...

I hate tournaments, because people are too competitive and anal about everything. I like tournaments, because I get to play a bunch of games back to back. I hate when people can't play without looking up a rule if it means they're gonna lose an extra model or 2. I like it when people say "yeah i think that's how it works, what do you think?" and I say "Sounds good to me, keep rolling!". I hate playing in stores because little kids say "wow lookit that!" and grab the model you spent $50 and 12 hours on. I like playing in stores because other people say "wow, lookit that! can I see it?" and I say "Sure!" and hand it over. I hate any kind of gaming con because only half the people know what soap is. I love playing with my group cuz we all know each other and the club's been going for like 10 years, and they do know what soap is.

It's just a game. I play to have fun. I lose almost every game I play, but I still have fun because I went outta my way to find a good bunch of folks to play with who like me don't take it seriously at all and just wanna have fun too.

I hate it when people who can spend hours upon hours painting and modelling show up for a game and have to say things like: "yeah i think that's how it works, what do you think?" and I have to explain how the rules don't allow them to do the overpowered thing they are trying to do. Sure there are situations where you are both aware that the rules are unclear and both peopel can easily agree and I'm all for that, just not when they are doing something over the top in their favor.

And it is usually in the favor of the people who say "I think..." I like having fun and don't mind losing to someone who played fair and took the time to learn the game that I am playing with them. At that point it is beer and pretzels, because it is relaxed and not tense because the opponent didn't realize his grand plans were fubared because he had to take his rough terrain roll even though he didn't make it into the terrain.

Hellfury wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:We should all play BattleTech. Nothing quite like having a 6 page document of just modifiers and tables...

BYE

Hmm...

No thanks.

Kthnxbye

It doesn't have to be that way, which is IMHO the best thing about BattleTech. If you want to keep it simple, you can still just play with the one page of tables and such that was on the back cover of the rulebook from the first box set. You can add as much or as little stuff from there as you want, to get to your optimal level of realism/complexity.

Instead of saying X game is better than Y game or why I like A game more than B game, in Table Top Gaming terms, I think variety is the spice of life.

And it's about finding the right group of friends.

Sometimes we play 40K. Sometimes we play Battletech. Sometimes we play AT-43. Sometimes we play Necromunda. And hell, sometimes we sit around the Wii and play Super Mario Strikers or we break out our NDSs and play some Meteos or Mario Cart. Or we break out our laptops for some Warcraft DOTA. We've also had long Settlers of Catan and Puerto Rico sessions. Whatever.

We haven't played Space Hulk in over 10 years, and that's okay. Same with Magic: the Gathering. And I have a painted BFG fleet that never saw a game, but that's alright.

That's what beer and pretzel is about to me. I game to hang out. I don't hang out to game.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

stonefox wrote:Battletech was rendered redundant when Mechwarrior came out. Sorry guys.

Just as 40K was made redundant the moment Final Liberation game out? Or Chaos Gate? Or perhaps Dawn of War?

BYE

MegaMek. All the joys of classic battletech, with a rules engine to handle all the math and dice rolling for you. As a bonus, it handles "doubleblind" games (i.e., if I don't have LoS to you, I can't see you) much better than setting up two tables in two separate rooms, and requiring a moderator to keep them together.

I love classic battletech and still play it when I can. The modifiers are as easy to memorize as the tables from either warhammer game, but you get a more in depth damage analysis when you do hit something.