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Hey guys,

My group has been stonewalling my efforts to open our monthly basement Apocalypse games to the use of Super-heavies. The problem is I am scratch building my own (Defense Laser and Subjugator) and they refuse to make the effort to scratch or drop the coin on a Baneblade, thus unanimously denying me the pleasure. To ease them into the whole concept and play test an idea I've had for ages, I am going to introduce my own datasheet to them. It's something easily converted and light on the structure points. Unfortunately, they shun anything "cheesy" (which is anything breaking their stance on 'Apocalypse minus Super-heavies') so I wanted to swing it by you grunts to get a couple real opinions on it before I shove it down their throats. So here it goes:

CENTAURUS DREADNOUGHT

BACKGROUND:
The Centaurus Dreadnought is a pre-Heresy rig that combines thick armor with deceiving mobility. A compliment of these walkers were most recently uncovered in the listing hull of an ancient Strike Cruiser. After a thorough scan, the Loyalist Cruiser was learned to be tagged as lost in the Warp during the many fleet movements feverishly reacting to the spread of the Heresy. Following several electronic inquiries, it was determined that the ship's warp shield had remained intake as best as could be surmised. After a cautious boarding action by the investigating Adeptus Astartes fleet, the Dreadnoughts, emblazoned with the heraldry of the Ultramarines (or other Loyalist Legion), were uncovered in stasis awaiting activation. Upon waking, the machines demonstrated extreme loyalty and understanding of the present, as if the Emperor's Light had given them sight throughout their time chambered. Because no working SCT of the "new" pattern was uncovered, the Dreadnoughts now hold a status of value beyond even those most venerated.

POINTS: 200? + OPTIONS

UNIT: 1 Centaurus Dreadnought

TYPE: Super-heavy Walker

STRUCTURE POINTS: 2 (maybe 3?)

STATLINE:
WS 5 BS 5 STR 5 I 4 (considering 3 as penalty to armor) A 3 F 13 S 13 R 10

WEAPONS:
Smoke Launchers
2 Dreadnought CCW with Stormbolter (+1A included in stats)
0-2 Optional Weapons Slots

OPTIONS:
- Either additional Slot may be equipped with the following (options selected twice are not twin-linked):
Twin-linked Lascannon for 35 points.
Multi-melta for 20 points.
Missile Launcher for 25 points.
Plasma Cannon for 30 points.
Additional Dreadnought CCW with Stormbolter for 15 points. (each result in +1A to stats)

- Any Stormbolters may be replaced with the following:
Heavy Flamer for 5 points.
Meltagun for 10 points.
Plasmagun for 15 points. ?

SPECIAL RULES: (definitely require criticism)

Venerable: As stated in the most recent Space Marines Codex.

Fleet: As stated in the most recent Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Repair: As stated in the most recent Space Marines Codex.

Power of the Ancients: Upon any roll of a six (6) 'To Hit' during the Shooting phase, the Centaurus gains an additional shot at the same target/unit from the same weapon, resolved at a cumulative -1BS. Upon any roll of a six (6) 'To Hit' during the Assault Phase, the Centaurus gains an additional strike at the same target/unit, resolved at a cumulative -1WS. Additional shots may not be re-rolled due to twin-link.
(Example: Brother Titus fires upon a unit with a Plasmagun requiring a 2+, and rolls a 6. Brother Titus gains an additional shot requiring a 3+, and rolls a 6. Brother Titus gains an additional shot requiring a 4+ and rolls a 3. Brother Titus now rolls 2 'To Wound' against the unit.)

Flaw of the Ancients: Upon any roll of a one (1) 'To Hit' or for 'Fleet' during the Shooting phase, the Centaurus suffers a 'Weapon Destroyed' or 'Immobilized', respectively, on an opponent's roll of a 4+ (open to debate; whether it should be automatic, require a lower roll, or a higher roll). The 'Weapon Destroyed' result only affects the weapon that fired and, in the case of ranged weapons on CCWs, only affects the ranged weapon. (This effectively allows the Centaurus to suffer the affects of Plasma, which it may field liberally and at several opponents due to the Super-heavy rules.)

In conclusion, the Centaurus Dreadnought possess the wisdom of experience (in it's WS, BS and Power of the Ancients) while equally suffering the trails of time itself(in it's worn STR and Flaw of the Ancients). I very eagerly hope to hear some constructive critiques. I do not want any garbage, but hey it's a forum after all! Thanks to all in advance!

EDIT! Forgot to mention, the entire concept is a Dreadnought body on Defiler legs, additionally bulked up with plasticard and Imperial heraldry.

Seems like an interesting idea. Have you any plans to model these?

I can't say that this strikes me as the best way to ease superheavies into your GC: by creating your own, somewhat complicated rules for a brand new (old) unit the onus is entirely on you for everything to be perfect: and if you're creating it yourself, isn't it less likely to be accepted by a group that think even established units are 'cheesy'?

I have sketches at my apartment I can scan when I get the opportunity. I also have the materials, minus a Dreadnought body. My group actually prompted the idea that I deliver them something you might consider a 'mini Super-heavy'. Taking into account my recent fever for modeling, it spawned into this concept. Most of their complaints on Super-heavies is that they are 'too big', in regards to points price and effort. I have lazy friends. I feel they can handle rules, its size and titanic weapons they can't deal with.

Fair point. I feel your pain - it's a shame they don't want to get involved with the big stuff.

Dude, it's Apocalypse! You should be able to field Superheavies if people are using any Datasheets.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Dude, it's Apocalypse! You should be able to field Superheavies if people are using any Datasheets.

Unfortunately its Apocalypse, which means he needs consent for everything he fields.

Well it's a friendly group, thus the consent really. I was hoping you guys could help me hone the points costs and special rules. I want it to be fair in the GW apocalypse games I frequent also. But mainly balanced in general. Assistance?

Both the ancient powers are far too extreme and frequent. Tone them down a lot.

I don't know apoc at all, but borrowing rules from other units is a good place to start instead of crafting your own.

-Leo037

... intresting take but i'd modify the rule so that it works as follows...

CENTAURUS DREADNOUGHT Points: 400
__________ARMOUR_____
WS-BS-S__F__S__R__I__A
7__7__5__13__13__10__5__2

STRUCTURE POINTS: 3

VOID SHIELDS: 0

WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT:
- Smoke Launchers
- Searchlight
- Extra Armour
- Dreadnought CCW (With Furioso Weapon)
And Three items from the following list
- Dreadnought CCW (With Furioso Weapon)
- Twin-linked Lascannon
- Twin-linked Multi-melta
- Twin-linked Plasma Cannon
- Duel Heavy Bolter
- Duel Missile Launcher
- Void Shield*

* if selected once gives +1 Void Shield if selected twice gives +3 void Shields. Can only be selected twice.

Special Rules:
Agile: In the shooting phase the Centaurus Dreadnought may divert some of the energy from its primary weapons towards its legs so it can choose to:
- Fire all available weapons, as normal.
- Fire a single Primary weapon and move an extra D6" (as per the Fleet of Foot rule)
- Fire no weapons and move an extra 2D6" (as per the Fleet of Foot rule)

Rule of The Ancients: When ever the Centaurus Dreadnought fires a weapon or attacks in close combat roll a D6. This number multiplys the number of shots or atacks that you are given (after other modifires), so a D6 roll of 3 lets a lascannon fire 3 times or a heavy bolter fire 9 times. The down side of this is that the BS and WS is also reduced by the roll as the Dreadnought shakes.

Furioso Weapon: It is blieved that the Centaurus Dreadnoughts were orginaly designed for use with in the blood angels. As such it resembles the Furioso Dreadnoughts in that the first weapon on the close combat weapon is a storm bolter and on the second arm it is a Meltagun; if a third close combat weapon is chosen then its a Heavy Flamer; and if a fourth close combat weapon is chosen the weapon is a plasma gun. Also each extra close combat weapon adds 2 attacks (so 1 CCW, is 4A; 2 CCW's, 6A; 3 CCW's, 8A; and 4 CCW's, 10A)

Duel: All Duel Weapons are 2 guns strapped togetter, but unlike Twin-Linked weapons you don't reroll to hit you gain double the stand shots. in regards to Rule of Ancients a Duel Heavy Bolter would have 6 basic shots, so on a roll of 6 you get 36 shots at BS 1


... ok reasons for the changes ...
... the main point of the Apocalypse rules are to make larger games faster, so by making the number of shots/attacks a single D6 roll it speeds things up greatly and reducing the BS/WS by the same reprisents the fact that the Dreadnought is being put under alot of strain firing so fast...
... theres no point cost for the weapons as due to a slight tweak to them the all should cost about the same so it doesn't matter what you got ...
... Furioso Weapon well i liked the idea of have Meltaguns, Heavy Flamers and Plasmaguns on the CCW but this way again removes the need for point changes but keeps all options. Increased the number of extra atacks as it is a Super Heavy Walker (even if they're only strenth 5)...
... point cost 400? well its great but end of the day it has Rear Armour 10 and could easily be killed, even normal bolters could destoy it...

so that my view on this very scary Dreadnought, but end of day it'll die once you work out how to get at the rear armour, it'll be easily killed.

edited 10 times? well i forgot to check the layout (and each time i reread it i spoted some thing i missed)

Your friends sound a little uncool in this respect. Honestly, I don't play, but if someone built an uber-tank and gave it reasonable rules I wouldn't begrudge them. Maybe it's a gamers mindset that I don't understand or something, but I'm sure they could be more accomadating. How old are they?

Yeah, the rules for any given datasheet generally get lost in the overall size of an apocolypse game, so I"m sure you're rules would be fine. personally I think it's a fun unit, and not particularly tough (2 structure points at AV13 won't last horribly long).

I don't think the problem is the rules for superheavies, but rather that your friends are prats. I mean, I'm going to second Jazz's question of how old these winners are, because playing Apocolypse (a wonderfully ridiculous game) while banning Superheavy units is like LARPing while banning SuperHeavy people: it's less fun, and misses a ton of the point of the exercise.

It's true, LARPing without the morbidly obese is just dinner theatre.

Why bother?

Instead give it a battlecannon and call it a Knight.

My friends are in their mid twenties. We have been talking it out for a bit, some of them didn't know the Super Heavy rules. We want the thing to feel like dug-up pre-Heresy. This is what we came up with:

CENTAURIAN DREADNOUGHT

BACKGROUND:
The Centaurian Dreadnought is a pre-Heresy rig that combines thick armor with deceiving mobility. A compliment of these walkers were most recently uncovered in the listing hull of an ancient Strike Cruiser. After a thorough scan, the Loyalist Cruiser was learned to be tagged as lost in the Warp during the many fleet movements feverishly reacting to the spread of the Heresy. Following several electronic inquiries, it was determined that the ship's warp shield had remained intake as best as could be surmised. After a cautious boarding action by the investigating Adeptus Astartes fleet, the Dreadnoughts, emblazoned with the heraldry of the Ultramarines (or other Loyalist Legion), were uncovered in stasis awaiting activation. Upon waking, the machines demonstrated extreme loyalty and understanding of the present, as if the Emperor's Light had given them sight throughout their time chambered. Because no working SCT of the "new" pattern was uncovered, the Dreadnoughts now hold a status of value beyond even those most venerated.

POINTS: 300 + OPTIONS

UNIT: 1 Centaurian Dreadnought

TYPE: Super-heavy Walker

STRUCTURE POINTS: 3

STATLINE:
WS 5 BS 5 STR 5(10) I 4 A 3 F 13 S 13 R 13

WEAPONS:
Smoke Launchers
0-2 Required Weapon Slots
0-2 Optional Weapon Slots
Extra Armour

OPTIONS:
- Each Weapon Slot may be equipped with the following (options selected twice are not twin-linked):
Twin-linked Autocannon for 25 points.
Twin-linked Lascannon for 35 points.
Multi-melta for 20 points.
Missile Launcher for 25 points.
Plasma Cannon for 30 points.
Dreadnought CCW with Combi-bolter for 15 points. (each result after first is +1A stat)
Twin-lined Heavy Bolter for 15 points.

- Any Combi-bolters may be replaced with the following:
Heavy Flamer for 5 points.
Meltagun for 10 points.
Plasmagun for 15 points.

SPECIAL RULES:

Venerable: As stated in the most recent Space Marines Codex.

Fleet: As stated in the most recent Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Expert Repair: As stated in the most recent Space Marines Codex; with the inclusion of 'Weapon Destroyed' results as well on the roll of a six (6).

Curse of the Ages: Upon any roll of a one (1) 'To Hit' or for 'Fleet' during the Shooting phase, the Centaurian suffers a 'Weapon Destroyed' or 'Immobilized', respectively, automatically (enacted at the end of the Shooting Phase). The 'Weapon Destroyed' result only affects the weapon that fired and, in the case of ranged weapons on CCWs, only affects the ranged weapon. All results may be repaired by use of a Techmarine or the Repair rule.(This effectively allows the Centaurus to suffer the affects of Plasma, which it may field liberally and at several opponents due to the Super-heavy rules.)

Will of the Emperor: Upon any roll of a six (6) 'To Hit' during the Shooting phase, the Centaurus gains an additional shot at the same target/unit from the same weapon, resolved at a -1BS. Upon any roll of a six (6) 'To Hit' during the Assault Phase, the Centaurus gains an additional strike at the same target/unit, resolved at a -1WS. Additional shots may be re-rolled due to twin-link. The Centaurian may only gain a number of additional shots per dice rolled, per weapon in the Shooting Phase; and only one additional strike per dice first rolled in the Assault Phase.
(Example: Brother Titus fires upon a unit with a Twin-linked Heavy Bolter and rolls a 6, 3 & 6. Brother Titus gains two additional shots and rolls a 1 & 6. Brother Titus rolls 4 'To Wound' results, then his weapon is destroyed.)

Glory To My Brothers!: This ancient and awe inspiring manifestation of the Emperor's power and glory is truly a sight to behold. The honor of fighting beside such a great and noble being inspires the warriors of the Imperium to fight with stronger resolve. So inspiring is his presence on the battlefield that any friendly unit within 12" of the Centaurian may re-roll any Morale Check, if the owning player so chooses. This includes passed tests if the unit chooses to clear the way for thier honoured guest. (Friendly units only qualify as those units owned by the player fielding the Centaurian Dreadnought.)

I'm pretty sure its just the fact that no one owned the apoc book until last week with the exceptions of smashotron. I've been pushing for the use superheavies along with "smash" and its been kind of difficult to further their usage. Thankfully in the game in june things should be changed.

As for the centuarian, I like the rules set. I think its completely fair and as long as its modeled properly shouldn't be a problem.

Actually Achilles, I meant more about all the flak I was taking from Wolf at first. Then he ate up the idea and spit out some good feedback. I think I'll build a Centuarian by June.

I do like the Knight Dreadnought idea with battlecannon though. It would give the Defiler model more roots and fluff if it came from an actual pre-Heresy pattern war machine.