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Ok, so Ive read a lot of posts on here totally beating on the new Dark Angels Codex, and am still curious as to whether the army can be competitive. I used to play them in their old form and under that GW "update" they put online. Im not overly familiar with the newest version of the book, so any veteran Dark Angel's players please fill me in on the Pro's/Con's of the list (even the special characters). Anyone who's fought the new list pretty frequently, please feel free to toss in why the army was a pushover, or if they gave you a rough time.
Id like to know as much as possible from all you fellow players about this new book/new army list.

Thanks all!

--Also, feel free to post any army lists that seem to work well for you!

thanks again!

Well, a competitive DA army can be build upon the following core:

Sammael on Landspeeder

2x RW Assault squadron
5 Bikers w/ plasmas (x2)
1 Vet Serg w/ power fist
1 Attack Bike w/ mmelta
1 Tornado

3x Predator w/ heavy bolter sponsons

The rest is personal preference: RW Landspeeder squadron, DW Termie squad, Scouts.

I have been playing DA since I began playing back around '95 or '96. Personally I felt very let down by this new codex. But I refused to let that stop me and I have been trying to work within the few things I like from the book. Taking advantage of the 95pt pred destructor is a big must. I have not been able to buy everything I need yet but have been running the same idea shrunken down in points, which is still giving me a good idea of how the larger army will work since all I plan on doing is adding more of the same things to the list.
Currently using
-Pred Destructor
-2x Venerable dreads w/ asscans
-Techmarine w/ 4HB servitors
-Tacticals 10 man w/ Fist, PG, and Rocket or LasCan... combat squaded with a razorback.

Most everything else is in flux. I don't get to play very often, and with so many MEQ armies floating around in my game group I generally fall back on my eldar, orks, or guard.

I will be adding another pred, and more techmarines... or as I call them ghetto devs. I am also prolly only going to field 2 preds, the other heavy slot will go to LasCan devs for more AT. As for HQ's the specials are prolly the way to go. Right now I usually use my chaplain attached to one of my squads intended for CC. Ravenbomb interests me but honestly costs too much points, for not enough punch in my book. So far this list has performed admirably for me. It has plenty of shots to put my enemy on his heels as soon as he crosses 36" mark, and I usually manage to squeeze enough LasCans on the board to apply enough AT at these lower points, and having some transports on the board gives me objective grabbing ability. With the dawning of 5th edition ravenbomb using Samael and Belial as HQ's is interesting me though.... take a bunch of termi's and bikes as troops, too keep KP value on the list lower. Even with 2 juicy 3 KP models on the board to get this effect, they have a good level of survivability. This would make ravenbomb a little more appealing to me, as even if you looked like you got hosed KP could say otherwise. Now I am sure plenty of people are going to call me an idiot for that but whatever.

If you take everything that is good about the codex (very few things) and nothing that is fluff/bullcrap, you can make an almost competitive list with this book. That said, because so many of the things are so utterly terrible and overpriced (terminator squads, dreadnoughts, las/plas squads, HQs other than Belial or Sammael) your choices are fairly limited.

Predators, whirlwinds, landraiders, assault marines, bike squads, all good options.

Basic tac marines are acceptable options.

Terminators, landspeeders, dreads, veterans, scouts are weak and should be avoided generally. Command squads same same.

I'm not going to say you won't win some games even with the cruddiest list, but whether your list is going to hang with Godzilla nids or whatever is going to depend on how you abuse the very few good spots of the list.

The Dark Angels are fine. Deathwing squads can mix weapons and they're Fearless. All Dark Angel HQs are Fearless. A Dark Angel Command Squad can, for 5 measly points in conjunction with an Interrogator-Chaplain, take a banner that makes all units with a model within 12" Fearless. Their Command squads are Fearless. Ravenwing Bikes and Attack Bikes are...Fearless!

Take an army including an Interrogator-Chaplain, a Command Squad, two full Tactical Squads, and two full Ravenwing Attack Squadrons. That can be 10 Fearless units on the board if you use the Combat Squads rule.

Only those of us in the Inner circle know how to TRULY play the DA's effectively. THAT"S the secret they're talking about.

I'm sorry young one, these are secrets you must figure out yourself.

I think Dark Angels players should have a secret handshake.

Or once you get a certain number of wins a secret handshake, and an induction as an honorary member of the chapter.

Anyone looking forward to Dark Angle tattoos?

Maybe a limited edition keepsake from the souvenir store in the Rock's lobby?

Last tourny I went to, the top two armys van SM (mine) and the DA army.

One unit of termies,
HQ Chaplin assault squad
Bike squad
couple tactical squads, split combat squads.
Pred, razorx2.

Good amount of core mixed in with some odds and ends.

My first opp was DW bikes/speeders. He got first turn and I was lucky or should I say I had enough stuff to weather the fire. uggggg.

First of all, thanks to all who've contributed to this thread. Your advice has been great!

Next, I see a lot of mention of Sammael in the land speeder, but what about him on the jetbike?
Is there any good to come out of him that way? other than a cool figure of course.

Im starting to get an idea of how the army list works. I need to get the codex myself before I can start making any of my own lists.
Ive always had a hard time deciding on a chapter to play, and I think maybe they're the ones for me!

Id definetly like to know the Inner Circle Handshake though, that sounds pretty rockin' !

Looking forward to more advice/comments.

Thanks!

You almost always want to take the Landspeeder version unless you were going to run him with an assault squadron. (which is legal) The only problems is that he only shoots one weapon a turn and his plasma cannon gets hot...

So its almost always better as the landspeeder, seeing as its pretty much an incredibly fast landraider with a somewhat lighter armament.

Hmm i havent used him but I thought being that the weapon was mounted and not carried by him get hot didnt matter.

He's not a vehicle so the Get's Hot rule still matters. Basically, the only reason to take the Jetbike version is because the model is so damn pretty. Maybe if you are playing IG or Tau he could have a use as he can tie up units in cc, but otherwise Landspeeder > Jetbike.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ratbarf wrote:You almost always want to take the Landspeeder version unless you were going to run him with an assault squadron. (which is legal) The only problems is that he only shoots one weapon a turn and his plasma cannon gets hot...

So its almost always better as the landspeeder, seeing as its pretty much an incredibly fast landraider with a somewhat lighter armament.

You can't run him with anything. He's not a IC.

Plasma Sam is pretty. In 5th, he's an awesome 3 KP for the other guy.

Landspeeder Sam is dangerous. In 5th, he rarely dies.

I've been fooling around with the DA in army builder, and for 1850 I'm looking at:

Sammy on speeder
2x Tac squads w/ las, melta, fist & LC Razorback
2 full Ravenwing squads with meltas and fist
2 Predators with autocannon & HBs

There are only two static squads, a lots of anti tank, decent counter charge, and a suprising number of scoring units.

Stelek wrote:

Landspeeder Sam is dangerous. In 5th, he rarely dies.

Exactly right, Run the speeder it's Ballin'.

I really don't think there is a "Correct" build for DA's. The big secret is to grab what you can out of the codex that you like and can make effective....and simply get good with it. Lots of things in this game can be great if you "Get Good", last edition I had a great win record with a full DeathWing army, while the 1850 consisted of some 25 or so models, I knew their limitations and their strengths. I also am aware of pretty much all armies capabilities in 40k. This made me a "Good" Deathwing player. Would I easily beat Zilla Nid, Falcon Harlies, or any of the other "Top" Builds? probably not, but I was assured good standing tournement-wise regardless. If I got lucky and faced the right opponents for the whole tournement, who knows? Tournement play is luck of the draw a lot of the time anyway.

Right now I have a successfull DA list built around Azrael and combat squaded tac-squads with lascanon/plas, and pred's in heavy for crowd control, the only "poor" choice I've made is the grossly overcosted dread with lascannon, 145 pts and he isnt even venerable...crap. However, he hangs back, plinking away with his twin-las and frequently survives the battle, in fact I dont think he's died to-date. I've gotten good with him, and if anything, his unfair point pricing has MADE me be cautious with him and probably MADE me be more effective with him. I have other threats more up there and "in your face" that cause my oppenent to 'forget' about the dread that is over 3ft away from his army.

Just build your list, try not to bring all the candy in the list and build something that resembles balance, get good with it, and there you have it, the best DA build. You'll win your fair share of games.

Polonius wrote:I've been fooling around with the DA in army builder, and for 1850 I'm looking at:

Sammy on speeder
2x Tac squads w/ las, melta, fist & LC Razorback
2 full Ravenwing squads with meltas and fist
2 Predators with autocannon & HBs

There are only two static squads, a lots of anti tank, decent counter charge, and a suprising number of scoring units.

Polonius I am surprised at you. Jumping on DA Bandwagon huh?

Seriously though, not a bad list. You've taken a lot of the best bits out of the codex, Sammy on Speeder (best buy in the whole codex), amazingly cheap Preds, and the RW squads are pretty good as long as you are patient and focused.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:

Polonius I am surprised at you. Jumping on DA Bandwagon huh?

There is no DA Bandwagon, it was shot and destroyed by a 14 man Loota Squad.

I'm not jumping on anything, but I'm increasingly interested in determining the extent that codex "strength" has an impact on gaming success.

I've consistently rejected the argument that there is no impact, but for all of the clamor regarding the most powerful builds, their success rate in actual tournaments is less then amazing. As I mentioned in the thread regarding Jervis's standard bearer; his 10% figure doesn't sound totally off base in regards to the impact list design has on success.

On the other hand, my regular opponent played his marines as DA for a while, and I consistently handled what he sent my way with my space marines and IG. The questions I have are:
1) Was he simply playing them poorly?
2) Was his build optimal?
3) Was I simply playing natural foils to the DA?

At first glance, and by all accounts, the DA book is the weakest (save perhaps DH) currently in print. Unlike DH, however, I think that DA have strong advantages in at least a few areas (cheap vehicles, combat squads), making even the label "weakest codex" less damning then it was in the past.

My current theory is that while there are a handful of decent builds in the DA book, any successful army will have to be:
1) Played very well
2) Built with less tolerance for error then many other books
3) built almost entirely out of the handful of good units

The problem I see is that DA used to be three sort of baked ideas:
1) rugged shooters
2) all termies
3) All bikes and speeders

The current codex allows all three builds to survive, but with changed, and to an extent diluted effect. i think after the SM revision DA will reclaim the titles of both Terminator and Bike champs, but for now I'd rather feild a Be Swift as the Wind list, or a Lysander wing.

I know this was a long answer to a quick question, but I've been doing a lot of thinking about some of my assumptions about 40k.

Deadshane1 wrote:There is no DA Bandwagon, it was shot and destroyed by a 14 man Loota Squad.

That's why the Emperor invented Land Raiders.

Incidentally, I reject the idea that the Dark Angels are somehow the "weakest" codex. Part of the problem is that people seem oblivious to their strengths, like sheer number of Fearless units they have access to, their Tactical flexibility, and the sheer handiness of Combat Squads.

What's your regular opponent's list like? I do think that DA have to be played more carefully than regular SM, we don't have a lot of the same crutches that vanilla SM have.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

He uses a few deathwing squads, a couple of ravenwing squads, devestators, and razorbacks. I forget exactly what he took, but it wasn't pretty in any of the games.

He certainly didn't use predators, he used sammy on jetbike (instant points for IG), and both times I played a shooty list that could outshoot him.

He was trying to play a las/plas style SAFH with the DA book, and paid the price.

One guy has a Dark Eldar Raider Host (Raiders, Ravagers, etc), another has a Imperial Guard with Conscripts and Hellhounds (as well as some beautiful converted Rough Riders), a third has a 'Swordwind' Eldar army (although he's got enough for an entire Ghost army or Guardian Horde), and the fourth has an Ork infantry-based horde accompanied by Dreds and Kans.

I have Orks, Dark Eldar, and Imperial Guard as well, but they're on the back-burner these days while I play with my Marines (dual-configured, looking at triple these days now that I have the Dark Angels codex).

Polonius wrote:He uses a few deathwing squads, a couple of ravenwing squads, devestators, and razorbacks. I forget exactly what he took, but it wasn't pretty in any of the games.

He certainly didn't use predators, he used sammy on jetbike (instant points for IG), and both times I played a shooty list that could outshoot him.

He was trying to play a las/plas style SAFH with the DA book, and paid the price.

Using Deathwing AND Ravenwing in multiples was his first mistake. It's an obvious str in the codex that seems so good, you wind up ignoring how many points you have tied up in the tactic...it isnt worth it. One ravenwing squadron AND one Terminator squad is expensive enough and tough enough to use. Doubling up on Deathwing assault is ridiculously expensive and leaves you with no meat in the army. If the Deathwing Assault fails, the army has failed. Too chancy and too circumstancial for tournement play.

I also cant see how one can ignore the 100pt Dakka pred... two heavy bolters, an autocannon, and a storm bolter is a DEFINATE awesome unit in the dex.

The DA codex really rewards smart play with a Balanced list. Pure or heavy Deathwing assault aided by Ravenwing is transparent and wont work against good players that will expect it. Those armies are what the noobs will be running...unsuccessfully.

Hmmm.. well, there are certainly improvements to the list and I'm sure he didn't use the RW and DW effectively. When I play shooty forces its all about concentration of my forces against a segment of my opponents and using terrain/cheap rhinos to block LOS. Against IG would be a time I'd probably use the Deathwing Assault. If you land right, you can limit return fire and then your opponent has to deal with a scary Terminator squad rampaging in their lines.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

You can use a single termie squad and character to land with a minimal biker squad effectively. It can be done with some decent effect.

I sometimes run two 3 man bikers to give my term's and librarian a "for sure" landing point. If you chance for first turn, you can set up a HEINOUS first turn Hellfire shot with terminator shooting. You can get that close and Hellfire can be ridiulously good at times (or suck). You can also bring a decent sized ravenwing squad split and still give them cover from HtH reprisals. Your enemy can be busy with terminators and often you can get a scout squad in support again, protecting the expensive bikers for a turn 2 melta attack on enemy vehicles.

More than two Terminator squads though? WITH a beefy ravenwing host? Garbage.

Blood Angels can also take the cheap 100 point Predator.

Nurglitch wrote:Blood Angels can also take the cheap 100 point Predator.

Vanilla Marines too when the codex comes out probably. It's still excellent for the cost regardless.