Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, about 2 years ago, I sold off everything hobby related and I mean everything for financial/space/marital reasons. I'm getting back into the hobby because, well, I need a hobby. However, I would like to maximize my gaming buck so I'm trying to create a list that can be used as either Loyalist or When loyalists go Bad. There is a lot of overlap between the two forces and I figure that you get away with maybe 70% of your figures being dual purpose. I could be wrong but didn't Mannahnin do something like this?

I know that I'll probably sacrifice some effectiveness on the altar of economics, but I was curious as to whether anyone else had ever created armies that could be used to represent more than one codex?

As a note, my current plan would be to assemble a force of DA Fallen to use as my army. I'm kind of drawn to a "high tech" style army where everyone has advanced helmets, weapons, and gear; but with very little in the way of screaming, pointing, raising swords to the sky. I was thinking I could have them count as 1k Sons and Iron Warriors or as a sort of Iron Hands style force.

Any tips on incorporating some of the more unique units (demons, obliterators, DPs) into dual-purpose list would be greatly appreciated.

Yep. Gasmask, trenchcoat cadians that I also use as my Tau's Kroot. There will be ~80 of them so it's useful for either army.

I agree iwth you on aesthetics. I love the look of the advanced, high-tech army myself. My armies are always full of helmets and gear.

Well, youv'e now doubt realized that many of the units work beautifully as analogues, not only from SM to CSM, but also to DA and BA. BT are a little wackier, and Space Wolves could go either way. Clearly the following at easy as pie:
Tactical = CSM squad
Chosen = Vet/Command
Termies = Termies
Devs = Havocs
Assault = Raptors
Bikes = Bikes
Pred/vind/Land raider = Pred/vind/Land Raider
Dread = Dread

Even with those units, I would use magnets on a few peices of kit (power fists, icons, special weapons, etc) to really maximize you ability to not only field the force you want, but to change the look completely. For example an icon bearer can be magnetized to carry multiple icons (khorne & undivided, say) as well as imperial imagery (aquilla, brazier, etc) for when the army is loyal.

If saving money is a major goal, then certainly don't use the current oblit models. The older style models are readily available on ebay for $5 a peice or so. Alternatively, you can convert them yourself. There are a few things you can try to use them as in a loyalist army (attack bikes, techmarine servitors) but none are horribly convincing.

Daemon Princes a really tough row to hoe for Loyalists. They dont' have any large, flying, monsters. One way to do it would be to take a Ravenwing landspeeder kit, magnetize the starboard gunner, the top gun, the chin gun, and the drivers left arm. When in loyalist mode, it's a standard tornado, while the drive either has his normal arm or a bolt pistol or soemthing. When Renegade, replace the drives arm with a sword, the chin gun with spikes or claws or something, and replace the gunner/heavy bolter with some sort of chaotic sorcerer/kai gun looking thing, it could be a pretty cool flying daemon prince.

yeah, the daemon prince kind of had me stumped for a while. I like the Land Speeder suggestion, so that'll definitely be looked into.

As far as Obliterators go, I was think of converting my own by making them servitor-like "mini-dreads." When used as Chaos, they would be Oblits and for Loyalists they would be the heavy weapons guys in squads. think weapons servitor on wheel/tracks. If heavy weapons guys doesn't seem to work, they could be techmarines or attack bikes.

I had an idea a few minutes ago that could reliably cover both Loyalists and Chaos. If I modeled the army as being afflicted by a techno-virus, it would explain weird appendages and morphing weapons.

It's not much to start with, but I think it can be done.

It's definitly doable. I don't know if money or time is the bigger limiting factor, which is why some suggestions might be harder then others. I'd ask how many of some of the trickier units you really want: for example, do you want 3 or 9 oblits? Do you want two DPs or just 1? Do you plan to pour a lot of time and conversion into every unit, or just what you have to to double dip?

Do you want the army to be competitive in both forms? Oblits as Techmarines is cool, but very few loyalist armies use techmarines.

Remember that in apocolypse, you can mix and match codices, so that bigger games aren't a problem, you only need to make sure you have solid 2k lists. Are you planning on buying the minimum amount to field two legal 2k lists, or is this going to be a larger, more complete army of 3-5k points?

Finally, keep in mind that there is a new Space Marine coming, sooner rather then later. Certainly the basic structure of SMs will remain, but certain things might go from being awesome (terminators with ACs, tornados) to being meh.

It's a great idea. Right now I have a Marine army that I run as either Blood Angels or Chaos Marines. It's rather interesting to see how they play differently too.

I've had an idea for at least 4 years now of building an Angel army, not Blood/dark angels, but literally winged warriors out of Paradise Lost. I was originally going to use the 3.5 Chaos book, then codex BA, then current Chaos, but now I realize that any wacky jump pack army could clearly be used as either.

I've mentioned it a few times, but it would use current DA plastic robes with all imperial iconography stripped off, no chainswords or bolt pistols (swords, axes, and shields) with flaming swords as power weapons, natch, and BadAss hammers as power fists. Paint all power armor bright steel, paint robes white/purple, and use an Alpha and an Omega as the chapter symbol. Call them the Warp Angels, and base them all on what look like clouds with Reaper angel wing packs as the wings.

I like chaos for having giant arch angles, but BA can take all jump troops... tempting both ways. If I were to build it, I'd purposely try to build it both ways.

Polonius wrote:It's definitly doable. I don't know if money or time is the bigger limiting factor, which is why some suggestions might be harder then others. I'd ask how many of some of the trickier units you really want: for example, do you want 3 or 9 oblits? Do you want two DPs or just 1? Do you plan to pour a lot of time and conversion into every unit, or just what you have to to double dip?

Do you want the army to be competitive in both forms? Oblits as Techmarines is cool, but very few loyalist armies use techmarines.

Remember that in apocolypse, you can mix and match codices, so that bigger games aren't a problem, you only need to make sure you have solid 2k lists. Are you planning on buying the minimum amount to field two legal 2k lists, or is this going to be a larger, more complete army of 3-5k points?

Finally, keep in mind that there is a new Space Marine coming, sooner rather then later. Certainly the basic structure of SMs will remain, but certain things might go from being awesome (terminators with ACs, tornados) to being meh.

Yeah, I've been keeping 5th edition SM and the game in mind. I'm not really looking to go sweep the Adepticon tournaments as far as effectiveness goes, but at the same time I don't want to be tabled every time. Speaking of time, I have all the time I need to model this thing up. The biggest problem will be getting all the necessary stuff to me.

I was saying in my first post that I needed a hobby. I need one because I am currently in Iraq (again) and the nature of my job (UH-60 Medevac pilot) means that I am on duty for long periods but not really doing anything. Seeing that there are no hobby shops, game clubs, or tournament in my forseeable future, I think that painting, modelling and converting will take center stage.

I haven't bought ANYTHING yet, so I'm gonna be short on parts and materials. Luckily, the desert provides plenty of basing material. Luckily, my tax return just came in so TheWarStore is about to receive a visit. I need to come up with a list eventually, but I'm starting off with 2 tactical squads

EDIT
Oh, and I'm looking at maybe have 3-4 Oblits max. I mostly want marines TAC/CSM, DEVS/HAVOCS, RAPTORS/ASSAULT MARINES. I'm still thinking about the more tricky bits but right now I'm mostly focused on getting something going.

Well, I'd consider buying 1 tactical squad and 1 chaos squad. the two kits mesh really well, and it gives you a bit more flexibility in heavy wepaons, as well as more options for BP/CCW.

It sounds like you've got a cool idea. Doing a techmarines gone wild style list can work pretty well in both codices. the other popular idea is to be a chapter that is stationed near the Maelstrom or Eye of Terror, and so uses a lot of Chaos stuff against Chaos, but is often accused of being heretical.

FWIW, my "Chaos" Marines are going to be misguided loyalists - to the point that they don't even realise what they do. Model-wise, they'll play as SM when I so choose.

@sgt. scruffy:
from a gamer's perspective, ya wouldn't run into many problems with flippin' between chaos and imperial marines...ya have the capability to just say,"this counts as this", and get to shootin'...
from a painter's standpoint, this could be a bit weak...
guys painted up as iron hands are not gonna convince anyone that they're iron warriors...

i think that dark angels could be an interestin' project, as they can be fallen, or pre-heresy, with the same paintjob, but a different codex...

i just wanna give ya props right here for the job ya do...
bein' a medi-vac pilot is one of the most noble jobs in
the military...no matter what one's politics, everyone can get behind a guy who is tryin' to ensure that someone's son/daughter/brother/sister gets home again...

cheers
jah

jah-joshua wrote:
from a painter's standpoint, this could be a bit weak...
guys painted up as iron hands are not gonna convince anyone that they're iron warriors...

That is why Jervis' Grey Marines are played as all kinds of things.

When I designed my army, I made it so that it could be used WYSIWYG as either Loyalist or Renegade. That means two things:

(1) Extraneous units like Scouts and Lesser Daemons that do not do double-duty, but sub in for each other.

(2) A rather limited palette of equipment and configuration. I chose to restrict myself to Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, and Missile Launchers at first, but I put together a Multi-Melta wielding Marine recently, and I have some Plasma Cannons lying around that are just begging to get used.

My friend has an army that he fields as either Space Wolves or 13th Company. Of course, some of the models cannot be used with both army lists (EXCEPT IN APOCALYPSE!!!).

Without having to invent crazy models to represent two things at once, the easiest way to do it is to have a couple of mini's in the "sideboard" for when you want to change it up.

For example, oblits and demon princes you would only use when you are playing chaos, and landspeeders when you are playing marines.

The basic marines and what not can be mixed and matched and used in every game, but you will just have a few extra figs to sideboard in every so often.

The sideboard thing has crossed my mind, and I think I'll eventually do that. Right now, I'm pretty focused on getting the basics in place before I start worrying too much about DPs and Oblits.

@ jah-joshua: I have no intention of actually painting them as Iron Hands or Iron Warriors, they are going to be either a Fallen DA or a DIY chapter to avoid any messy fluff entanglements.

Actually, while we're on the topic, does anyone know where I can find Pre-Heresy DA color schemes? I know it's basically all black but I was hoping to find some specifics. Thanks

The place to look for pre-Heresy DA would be the Rogue Trader rulebook.

But as things were pretty primitive back then, you'll do just fine if you spray them black and pick out the trim with red or white DA eagles.

the cover of descent of angels has a great close up pic of the modern interpretation of the scheme that i really like...
if ya don't wanna buy the book(i may be the only one on here that enjoyed readin' it!!!), ya may be able to download the cover pic off of black library's site...

the white shoulder pads really set off all the black armour...

sounds like a fun project...

cheers
jah

The Consecrators from the Dark Angels Codex use what is basically a pre-Heresy DA colour scheme. Just replace their chapter symbol with a red version of the DA symbol and you're good to go.

The Consecrators chapter from the DA codex successors section uses the original DA paint scheme. Though its pretty much black with grey highlights and dabs of red here and there.