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I've had the codex for a long time and was just waiting until I started the army. With the release of 5th coming out July, I thought it would be a good time to go ahead and start buying and painting models.

I'm not too sure what all changes are in 5th and such. I've only played 40k for 3-4 years now I have no idea what to expect from GW. I was hoping some fellow dakkites could give me a rough idea of where to start for 5th. Keep in mind that I am more of a close combat type of player. I love armies with mobility and speed. I'm not a real big fan of armor, but I do love skimmers. I dont know how much they nerfed em' though. I want to have a mass amout of marines. I'm a little sad because I cant use devastators in BT.

Any help would be great. Thanks.

you can start with two full sized crusades an emperors champion and grimaldus...

once you've built them add fire support (tank hunting terminators, speeders, 5man las plas crusades)

if you add a lot of fire support you may find that you'll want a marshall so that they don't run away.

edit: the crusades should be armed with pistols and close combat weapons

Agreed on all counts but one.

Two Crusader Squads is an excellent base. Black Templars do work with their Troops, more so than some, and with 5th supposedly making only Infantry-type Troops counting as scoring (to the last man, at that), 20-man Crusader Squads are going to be very, very valuable. Aside from Orks, it's hard to make a very large squad of tough soldiers for a relatively low cost. If you do go for the 20-man Squads of 10 Initiate and 10 Neophytes, then I'd recommend giving everyone a Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, with the exception of a single Power Fist and Bolt Pistol model. It is optional whether or not you want to include a Meltagun in such a large squad. The unit's purpose is choppy, not tank-popping (especially with only a single Power Fist). IMHO, I never leave home without one, as Templars are usually a bit lacking in the AT department. Keep in mind that it should only be used as a backup, not as a primary anti-tank weapon.

The Emperor's Champion is one of the best close combat units in the game for his points cost. Point for point, few units can match him in assault. Since he's mandatory for any army above 750 points, all I can say with regard to his uses is to choose your vow carefully, and then pile him into a squad.

Grimaldus is only useful when you have large 20-man Crusader Squads. That, and the fact that he's a special character that requires a 1500 point army backing him in order to be fielded. I'd go with a Reclusiarch, give him a Bolt Pistol, Holy Orb of Antioch, Frags, and 3 Cenobyte Servitors and call it a day. You lose the 6" Fearless bubble and the Holy Relic, but you still get the Zeal boost and Re-rolling to hit.

Hope that helps.

CK

you'll never regret taking those meltaguns.

The new ed will not really change the way competitive BT armies are played.
There was one BT player at GT heat 1, 8th ranked and so reaching the final.
He had 3 large Crusader squads (add EC and two Reclusiarchs) and several tanks (Predators, Tornados, Dread) to provide fire support.
Tanks not be the same in 5th ed, as defensive weapons are S4, bye bye heavy bolters, and Skimmers get nerfed.

Thanks for the comments guys. I was thinking about adding in 3 crusader squads of 20. Give the champion the Accept the Challenge vow. So this is what I was thinking to start off with.

Chapion - 140pts
Accept the Challenge, No matter the odds.

Crusader Squad - 285pts
10x Initiates, Powerfist, Melta-Gun
10x Neophytes.

Crusader Squad - 285pts
10x Initiates, Powerfist, Melta-Gun
10x Neophytes.

Crusader Squad - 285pts
10x Initiates, Powerfist, Melta-Gun
10x Neophytes.

This puts me at 995pts. I'm not too sure what to throw in for tanks though. I know the skimmers are nerfed now, whitch sucks. I really never like dreadnoughts because they are a huge "Shot me" target, plus now they dont seem worth it with 5th ed coming out. I was thinking maybe attack bikes? At 65pts, if you get any type of armor then they've made their points back.

I really want to use assault marines, but since they wont count as scoring units, there wouldn't be a point.

Anyone else have any ideas?

3 demolishers, with machine spirit upgrades. Lets you fire one weapon, and since its a blast its not a roll to hit with its crappy bs. Trust me 3 demolisher cannons is imposing no matter who your fighting. Also cheezy.

I have fielded 3 Vindicators before on a few occasions, and must say that while it is quite fearsome, it also goes down very quickly. My opponents all saw the three of them, and their eyes got a little wider and did that funny twitch you see cartoon characters make whenever they get upset.

I find them to be really hit or miss. In a couple games, they accounted for more than half of the points I killed. I others, they accounted for fewer than 100 (which is terrible, regardless of the points level). If you want to take Vindicators, I would recommend following the Rule of Two (or three). Taking only one is asking your opponent to take it out. That, and the fact that they're really easy to take down on their own. Having a pair or a trio of them allows you to maintain a massive area of effectiveness while keeping them within 12" of one another. In this way, you can intersperse them amongst your Crusader Squads, causing Line of Sight blockage for your opponent and acting as a charge deterrent for Sv2+ nasties and specialist hit-and-run type troops.

If you take them, do not skimp on additional protection for them. Power of the Machine Spirit should be considered a compulsory upgrade for them - if you can't make the points for it, then don't bother taking the Vindicator, as your opponent will keep it shaken all game. In addition, Extra Armor is incredibly useful, as it allows the Vindicator to move in other directions besides straight ahead. Smoke Launchers will also come in handy if you expect to brave anti-tank weapons before closing the distance.

Those three upgrades will give you a 163 point tank. Three of those will cost you 489 Points. That's a significant investment.

While I do not claim to understand all there is to know about how to work Vindicators on the field, I will say that they require some practice to use effectively. One particularly fun tactic I've discovered for them is to pop smoke on the first turn and move them 12" straight toward my opponent's line (I do this usually only if I won the roll for turn order). It makes your opponent sweat, because he knows that he's going to have to bring down the tanks on glances only, because next turn they're going to be able to reach out and touch anything in the enemy line.

Anyway, I would say that the base setup you've got so far is excellent. I wouldn't discount Dreadnoughts so quickly - having a single Dread in your army will be well worth it with the new damage table, provided you upgrade it to Venerable status. One of those packing an Assault Cannon, Missile Launcher, and the Tank Hunter upgrade makes an excellent mobile tank killer. The key with Templars is that everything ideally should be able to move with the Crusader units. Having a single, massive blob of Marines and Neophytes surrounding a spackling of Vindicators and Dreadnoughts is an absolutely brutal combination. Against other horde armies, it will tear apart everything that is thrown against you. It leaves something to be desired against Mechanized and Drop SAFH armies, but that's to be expected with any Templar build (with the exception of Drop Pod BT).

Anyway, long story short, it's looking good.

CK

Silverwarrior88 wrote:Thanks for the comments guys. I was thinking about adding in 3 crusader squads of 20. Give the champion the Accept the Challenge vow. So this is what I was thinking to start off with.

Chapion - 140pts
Accept the Challenge, No matter the odds.

Crusader Squad - 285pts
10x Initiates, Powerfist, Melta-Gun
10x Neophytes.

Crusader Squad - 285pts
10x Initiates, Powerfist, Melta-Gun
10x Neophytes.

Crusader Squad - 285pts
10x Initiates, Powerfist, Melta-Gun
10x Neophytes.

This puts me at 995pts. I'm not too sure what to throw in for tanks though. I know the skimmers are nerfed now, whitch sucks. I really never like dreadnoughts because they are a huge "Shot me" target, plus now they dont seem worth it with 5th ed coming out. I was thinking maybe attack bikes? At 65pts, if you get any type of armor then they've made their points back.

I really want to use assault marines, but since they wont count as scoring units, there wouldn't be a point.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Well you need an HQ spot filled on your FoC for starters.

From the F&Q, the Champion can count as a HQ, but doesn't take up a slot. If I'm wrong please provide me with the correct link so I can make changes.

Okay, for the next 500pts block, I took the advice about the Vindacators. So I added in what I believe would work for 5th, since def weapons are str 4 or lower.

Dreadnought - 160pts
Twin-Linked Lascannon
Venerable
Tank Hunters
Extra Armor

Vindacator - 163pts
Machine Spirit
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor

Vindacator - 163pts
Machine Spirit
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor

This brings it up to 1500pts range. Any other ideas?

The EC is considered an HQ but does not fill the mandatory HQ slot on the FoC. I'd recommend a Chappy as they're always fun in BT lists.

Again, unless anyone has the F&Q on the Champion that states otherwise, this is how people play them at local shops here. Even GW's site counts him as a HQ when showing the Core list for BT

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/blacktemplars/gettingstarted/core.htm

That's an interesting point. Unfortunately, GW has fielded downright illegal army lists on more than one occasion. Even though the Emperor's Champion is in the HQ Section of the Codex, he does not take up an HQ slot on the FOC Chart. Since standard missions REQUIRE at least one HQ slot be filled, the EC is inadequate, since he cannot fill any HQ slots.

Consider the Champ a nice addition to your already highly choppy HQ units. He's a quasi-HQ unit, but nothing more unfortunately.

CK

Silverwarrior88 wrote:Okay, for the next 500pts block, I took the advice about the Vindacators. So I added in what I believe would work for 5th, since def weapons are str 4 or lower.

Dreadnought - 160pts
Twin-Linked Lascannon
Venerable
Tank Hunters
Extra Armor

Vindacator - 163pts
Machine Spirit
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor

Vindacator - 163pts
Machine Spirit
Smoke Launchers
Extra Armor

This brings it up to 1500pts range. Any other ideas?

It can be land speeder tornado teim now?

well I guess what I'll do in that case is just drop one of the squads down to 5x marines, and 5 neophytes, throw in a cheap chaplain with an orb, bolt pistol, and honours and call it a day...

not sure if someone pointed it out or not (didnt look like it) but for the EC look in the codex page 31 under the emperors champion "chosen of the emperor" section of his entry. "...the Emperors champion does NOT use up an HQ slot on a force organisation chart, so you may still pick your two HQ choices as normal"

Cy

PS.
I would recommend chaplains myself (two but im kind of a holy roller like that)