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Wondering if there are any other Stealer Shock players out there who are contemplating what modifications will be necessary to keep Stealer Shock viable in 5th edition.

For discussion purposes, we'll define Stealer Shock as a Tyranid army designed to get genestealers into assault as rapidly as possible, and relies on genestealers as the "bread and butter" of the army list. Therefore, to be considered a Stealer Shock army, the following conditions must be met:

#1 - A minimum of 5 units of genestealers at 1750 points, and 4 units at 1500 points.
#2 - Genestealers must be equipped with scuttling. (Extended Carapace is also a no-brainer, but technically, you could try a stealer shock without it.)
#3 - There should be more genestealers than any other type of model in your army.

Now, with those conditions in mind, here's the question: Does stealer shock remain a viable army in 40K 5? And what changes modifications will be required to maintain its effectiveness?

I'll start the discussion with a couple of assertions/quesetions
A) Stealer Shock will, in general, remain viable due to the increased importance of troops.
B) Feeder tendrils become an absolute no-brainer due to the rumored changes in the preferred enemy rules.
C) Raveners become much less useful (potentially even useless), as the changes in rending and assault make them much less effective than adding more stealers.
D) Ideal squad size for genestealers in 40K 5 - do we want to field larger squads, or would we rather field more smaller squads.
E) What other units become the preferred support units. Currently, I would consider gunfexes to be nearly mandatory, and shooty tyrants (dakka and/or venom cannon) to be nearly so. Does this change? (I realize a lot will depend on whether the rumored nerf on MC shooting is true).

Assuming the only fire one on the move is true-
A good list I think will be 5 Carnies w/BS+Talons, Tyrant w/VC+Talons+scream+3 guard, 3 zoeys w/warp blast+scream, and the rest stealers.

Neither EC nor feeder tendrils are no brainers really (although they are excellent). Acid Maw, which you don't mention, are the actual no-brainers for stealers.

You also don't mention the broodlord, which is odd considering how good he is.

Aren't fexes and tyrants standard fare for stealer shock army lists?

While it's a moot point, I've always found the lone or paired raveners useless. That said, given the removal of fexes from mass direct fire--raveners do a decent job of it when striking in, and they can be a strong deterrent as they can be mini-fexes by themselves and boast decent combat capability...doing so while hiding behind a wall of fexes is where I see people using them if they bother with them at all.

Personally, I see the real stealer shock list for 5th being quite a bit different. I'll post it in army lists for you, it's the latest boogeyman in our local playtest group.

Is this sarcasm Stelek? I can never tell. Acid Maw? You've always found lone and paired Raveners useless? Broodlord?

Anyway, C99 my take on your assertions is as follows:

A. Stealers aren't typically sticking around to score in a SS setup, they are either all dead or your opponent is, in either case their scoring status is probably irrelevant. I think the idea for Stealer Shock is to run your foe over if he can't shoot you down on the way in, and this will remain viable. The stealer units staying scoring below 50% is nice, but canceled out by the fexes not being scoring. To sum up this comment, I concur that Stealer shock will remain viable, but I don't think the stealers being more scoring than previously will be the reason.

B. Sure, just too cheap not to take.

C. I can't concur, the Ravener still has a longer charge range than the stealers for locking things up purposes, as long as that doesn't change I think there will always be a place for 3 tiny units of them. It's clear that they are weakened by the combat changes, but I don't think its enough to make them useless.

D. More smaller squads is always better, right? Other than Liths and similar Necron toys I can't think of a reason not to rock the small squads as much as possible.

E. In all honesty I don't even know what competes with fexes/tyrants for those slots. Even if they get nerfed and have to go claw/guns, do the Nids have anything that can compete with even weaker fexes? t6 2+ saves are just too good.

Honestly I think Stealers are overpriced. Better to just take Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs.

Hmm, wouldn't you want like one or two really large squads of Hormaguants to screen/score/draw fire?

Stelek wrote:Neither EC nor feeder tendrils are no brainers really (although they are excellent). Acid Maw, which you don't mention, are the actual no-brainers for stealers.

They're absolutely no-brainers. EC, because of its greatly increased survivability against bolters and the like, is essentially mandatory, unless you regularly play with incredible amounts of terrain or in cities of death. FT, because re-rolling all failed to-hit rolls for 1 pt/model is just too good to pass up. Other armies pay 10-15 points for a character to master-craft a unit to get the same result.

Acid Maw looks good, but its high cost is off-putting. 4 pts per model, only works on the first turn of assault...not sure. Working the stats:

#1 - Genestealer /w EC, S, FT - 24 pts
#2 - Genestealer /w EC, S, FT, AM - 28 points.

Equal points comparison gives you 6 #2 Genestealers, or 7 #1 Genestealers

On the charge vs. MEQs
7 #1 Genestealers get 21 attacks, with 17.5 hits, 2.92 rends, and 5.83 wounds. 4.86 wounds after saves.
6 #2 Genestealers get 18 attacks, with 15 hits, 3.75 rends, and 7.5 wounds. 6.25 wounds after saves.

If the assault continues for a second turn, the numbers become
#1 - 14 attacks, 10.5 hits, 1.75 rends, and 3.5 wounds. 2.91 wounds after saves. 2-turn total: 7.77
#2 - 12 attacks, 9 hits, 1.5 rends, and 3 wounds. 2.5 wounds after saves. 2-turn total: 8.75

Extrapolating numbers, the assault would have to last for four turns in order to achieve parity between the two. Of course, this doesn't take into effect casualties from the return attacks. Acid maw may definitely be worthwhile, but the additional cost is troubling. A 16.6% increase in cost that doesn't increase the survivability of the genestealers in terms of their greatest threat: enemy shooting.

Stelek wrote:You also don't mention the broodlord, which is odd considering how good he is.

In v5 possibly. And if the 1 shot/MC thing is true, quite likely. But if the 2 weapon rule remains, the shooty tyrants remain critical, IMNSHO. Not enough information to determine.

Stelek wrote:Aren't fexes and tyrants standard fare for stealer shock army lists?

In 40K 4, yes. In 40K 5, depending again on whether they're nerfed...maybe.

Stelek wrote:While it's a moot point, I've always found the lone or paired raveners useless. That said, given the removal of fexes from mass direct fire--raveners do a decent job of it when striking in, and they can be a strong deterrent as they can be mini-fexes by themselves and boast decent combat capability...doing so while hiding behind a wall of fexes is where I see people using them if they bother with them at all.

Huh? Glad to know I've been using useless units for so long. Can't understand why they've been doing so well.

Regardless, in 40K 5, the rending nerf plus their removal as a scoring unit greatly reduces their utility. Their incredible threat radius remains, but everything I've read so far indicates that if you want to use Raveners, a larger squad will be necessary.

40kenthusiast wrote:
A. Stealers aren't typically sticking around to score in a SS setup, they are either all dead or your opponent is, in either case their scoring status is probably irrelevant. I think the idea for Stealer Shock is to run your foe over if he can't shoot you down on the way in, and this will remain viable. The stealer units staying scoring below 50% is nice, but canceled out by the fexes not being scoring. To sum up this comment, I concur that Stealer shock will remain viable, but I don't think the stealers being more scoring than previously will be the reason.

I'm thinking that the reliance on troops units will be both a plus and a negative, but I see your point.

40kenthusiast wrote:
C. I can't concur, the Ravener still has a longer charge range than the stealers for locking things up purposes, as long as that doesn't change I think there will always be a place for 3 tiny units of them. It's clear that they are weakened by the combat changes, but I don't think its enough to make them useless.

The rending nerf and the rumored counter-charge are what really worries me. Lone raveners will be easily overwhelmed by any sizable squad. They may still have a place vs. backfield types, but again, I'm not sure. No longer being scoring is really bothersome.

40kenthusiast wrote:
D. More smaller squads is always better, right? Other than Liths and similar Necron toys I can't think of a reason not to rock the small squads as much as possible.

In 40K 4, definitely. In 40K 5? I'm not so sure.

40kenthusiast wrote:
E. In all honesty I don't even know what competes with fexes/tyrants for those slots. Even if they get nerfed and have to go claw/guns, do the Nids have anything that can compete with even weaker fexes? t6 2+ saves are just too good.

For HQ slots, I think the broodlord becomes a viable alternative, especially if MC shooting is nerfed. At the HS level, a squad of 3 zoanthropes may very well become nearly mandatory, as the three S10 shots are the only things in the nid list that will be able to pen AV14 at range.

Ratbarf wrote:Hmm, wouldn't you want like one or two really large squads of Hormaguants to screen/score/draw fire?

Hormagaunts can't scuttle, which makes them useless for screening.

40kenthusiast wrote:Is this sarcasm Stelek? I can never tell. Acid Maw? You've always found lone and paired Raveners useless? Broodlord?

Nope not sarcasm.

Acid Maw re-rolls to wound, so you get a second chance at rending. How's that a bad thing?

I stopped running Raveners because they're so easy to kill. For the points, I'd rather run a bunch of hormagaunts.

The Broodlord comes in from reserve and eats you for lunch.

Centurian99 wrote:They're absolutely no-brainers. EC, because of its greatly increased survivability against bolters and the like, is essentially mandatory, unless you regularly play with incredible amounts of terrain or in cities of death. FT, because re-rolling all failed to-hit rolls for 1 pt/model is just too good to pass up. Other armies pay 10-15 points for a character to master-craft a unit to get the same result.

Extrapolating numbers, the assault would have to last for four turns in order to achieve parity between the two. Of course, this doesn't take into effect casualties from the return attacks. Acid maw may definitely be worthwhile, but the additional cost is troubling. A 16.6% increase in cost that doesn't increase the survivability of the genestealers in terms of their greatest threat: enemy shooting.

Getting cover saves is easy in 5th. You'll just have to see.

Feeder tendrils are cheap, but if you take acid maw you actually kill MORE enemies. And if you take feeder tendrils, well, congrats. You killed the enemy twice over (when paired with acid maw). So what's the point?

Centurian99 wrote:Huh? Glad to know I've been using useless units for so long. Can't understand why they've been doing so well.

You play people who can't figure out how to deal with them. I know, and I upgraded to the better unit. Haven't ever lost to the kind of army you run, especially not Raveners. In 5th, they're worse. So for me, a already crappy unit used for beating down the scrubs just got so bad even scrubs can kill it? Gee, let me play that.

Centurian99 wrote:Regardless, in 40K 5, the rending nerf plus their removal as a scoring unit greatly reduces their utility. Their incredible threat radius remains, but everything I've read so far indicates that if you want to use Raveners, a larger squad will be necessary.

It's not really incredible, it doesn't really scare experienced players, and I encourage you to run 300 point Ravener units in a troop-centric game.

10 Stealers w/ AM: 200 pts, 30 attacks on the charge, 8.33 meq kills.

12 Stealers w/ Feeder Tendrils: 204 pts, 36 attacks on the charge, 8.89 meq kills.

Factoring in the extra stealers you can buy by downgrading to tendrils, tendrils are better. If you assume they take shooting casualties, it gets even more pronounced.

After 4 shooting casualties:

10-4=6 Stealers w/ AM: 18 attacks on the charge, 5 meq kills.

12-4=8 Stealers w/ Feeder Tendrils: 24 attacks on the charge, 5.93 meq kills.

And so on. Stelek is absolutely correct that acid maw is better (that actually surprised me, BTW, because I expected the fact that only hits are eligible to roll+re-roll to wound whereas all attacks re-roll to hit to skew things more in tendrils' favor). The higher cost, however, just makes it a losing proposition vs. tendrils. Also consider that more bodies makes the units more resilient, improves morale, etc., and tendrils can also help nearby friendly models that may be in the same combat.

Stelek wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:Is this sarcasm Stelek? I can never tell. Acid Maw? You've always found lone and paired Raveners useless? Broodlord?

Nope not sarcasm.

Acid Maw re-rolls to wound, so you get a second chance at rending. How's that a bad thing?

I stopped running Raveners because they're so easy to kill. For the points, I'd rather run a bunch of hormagaunts.

The Broodlord comes in from reserve and eats you for lunch.

The broodlord can't fleet. That's painful, as it means that all it takes to counter him is to stay 12.00001+" away from the sides.

Stelek wrote:Getting cover saves is easy in 5th. You'll just have to see.

I'll believe that when I see it. You must play armies that believe in static gunlines.

Stelek wrote:
Feeder tendrils are cheap, but if you take acid maw you actually kill MORE enemies. And if you take feeder tendrils, well, congrats. You killed the enemy twice over (when paired with acid maw). So what's the point?

As I said earlier, they definitely make the squad more hitty. Whether they make it more survivable is the question, and additonal bodies can do that.

Stelek wrote:You play people who can't figure out how to deal with them. I know, and I upgraded to the better unit. Haven't ever lost to the kind of army you run, especially not Raveners. In 5th, they're worse. So for me, a already crappy unit used for beating down the scrubs just got so bad even scrubs can kill it? Gee, let me play that.

Oh really...so the guy who won the GW Tournament Series last year is a moron? As is every other player I've beaten with my stealer shock? Maybe its just that you haven't figured out how to use them effectively.

Stelek wrote:It's not really incredible, it doesn't really scare experienced players, and I encourage you to run 300 point Ravener units in a troop-centric game.

Yep...because there are tons of units that can potentially assault 24" in a single turn.

Obviously, you don't understand how to use raveners, if you think they suck. Based on a lot of your posts here, it seems like your tactics can be summed up in "hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle."

For a more direct example, I posted a variant of Stelek's proposed list over in this thread.

I replaced the units of 9 AM stealers w/ units of 10 FT stealers for 10 points less per brood.

9 AM stealers = 2.5 meq kills on charge
10 FT stealers = 2.47 meq kills on charge

And of course it gets better after the first turn, when AM wears off. As I said, Stelek's finding that AM is significantly better per-model than FT surprised me, but with the extra to-wound rolls you'll be making from FT, tendrils are close enough to AM that you're better off taking more FT stealers rather than fewer AM stealers, even considering the first turn when AM is in play.

The broodlord is debatable, but if you are taking one, Stelek's setup in the other thread is very nice; FT on the broodlord, AM on the stealers, re-roll hits and wounds for the retinue. My only concern there is that it may be overkill, but it's certainly scary.

edit: Cleaned up bad grammar.

I think what it comes down to is one simple question: Do stealers really need more help killing things once they're in combat? Or do they need help staying alive to get to combat?

"FT on the broodlord, AM on the stealers, re-roll hits and wounds for the retinue. My only concern there is that it may be overkill, but it's certainly scary."

This is 40k, a world where to crack a nut they use a sledge, they don't know the meaning of overkill.

So this degenerated into a pissing match.

What else is new.

Yes, and the first fly to unzip was yours, Stelek.

What else is new.

"What else is new" Exactly!

What does Centurion99/Bill Kim know compared to Stelek about Tyranids? Centurion won the Chicago GT last year and the Adepticon Gladiator this year with Stealershock. What are Steleks accomplishments again?

Darrian

Regardless what's new, the overemphasis (sp?) of troops in 5th edition means that armies will feature more anti-troop- weapons(Heavy Bolter for example) which are the bane for genestealers. And in fact almost any medium size tyranid creature...

Just something to consider.

Greets
Schepp himself

Centurian99 wrote: Therefore, to be considered a Stealer Shock army, the following conditions must be met:

#1 - A minimum of 5 units of genestealers at 1750 points, and 4 units at 1500 points.
#2 - Genestealers must be equipped with scuttling. (Extended Carapace is also a no-brainer, but technically, you could try a stealer shock without it.)
#3 - There should be more genestealers than any other type of model in your army.

Here is where you get the problem. You insist on the genestealer horde because you need them to protect the few who make it into close combat and wipeout the enemy.

Mixed hormagaunts and genestealers in roughtly equal numbers is almost always better than an all genesteraler assault wave. Adding in lots of ablative hormagaunts doesnt make the list a generic swarm (it would if it included other gaunts) or included a higher proportion, this is because the genestealers still make up the majority of the points investment. The hormagaunts are essentially 'the genestealers who die first' and those who double charge over double tap range to tie up the opponents gun line. In all its still the stealers who do the work, only you will likely deliver more genestealers in total.

Sure you might prefer a genestealer 'cult' theme army with no gaunts. But a hybrid list is still stealershock in tactics, looks and effect. The onkly major diffference is that to get your stealer in you have to have fewer larger units of stealers.

A hybrid list also means you can skimp on scuttling if you want, and pour that investment back into more models.

I included #1, 2, & 3 because...well, I could. :p

Seriously though, I had a friend who did the S4 hormagaunt horde, and it was vicious. I don't think any of us beat him until one guy threw down a lysanderwing.

But at some point, if you're taking lots of hormagaunts, you've essentially got a hormagaunt army with stealers, instead of a stealer army with gaunts.

The other thing (and this is some element of 40K 4 thinking) is that part of the stealer shock's power comes from the scout move. Pre-game move and guaranteed deployment. With the hormagaunts, you'd lose that. A bit less valuable in 40K 5, but the rumored side table edge thing could make up for it.

The final thing (and this is really the kicker) is that (at least the way I played the Stealer Shock) if I did things right, all the genestealers or most of the genestealers hit assault in the same turn (barring poor fleet rolls). Sometimes I went half-and-half, but those games were generally much tougher - because a lot of the time, it wasn't that I would tie up every enemy unit...but I would have almost every unit of genestealers safe in assault, and unshootable. With a stealer/hormagaunt mix, you're all but guaranteeing that you hit in two waves...which means that the stealers have to take an extra turn of fire.

BTW, Darrian - Thx. The ghost of Drew Riggio must be rolling in his grave...

By the way, another reason for requiring scuttling is that it forces a player to be relatively aggressive with the stealer shock. I should have also put a "no elite carnifex" rule in there, since when Yakface created the stealer shock concept for DD1, one of the major concerns was to do something that was not Nidzilla.

Another reason not to use gaunts is that Gaunts require synapse, whereas Stealers don't.

Orlanth wrote:Here is where you get the problem. You insist on the genestealer horde because you need them to protect the few who make it into close combat and wipeout the enemy.

Mixed hormagaunts and genestealers in roughtly equal numbers is almost always better than an all genesteraler assault wave. Adding in lots of ablative hormagaunts doesnt make the list a generic swarm (it would if it included other gaunts) or included a higher proportion, this is because the genestealers still make up the majority of the points investment. The hormagaunts are essentially 'the genestealers who die first' and those who double charge over double tap range to tie up the opponents gun line. In all its still the stealers who do the work, only you will likely deliver more genestealers in total.

Sure you might prefer a genestealer 'cult' theme army with no gaunts. But a hybrid list is still stealershock in tactics, looks and effect. The onkly major diffference is that to get your stealer in you have to have fewer larger units of stealers.

A hybrid list also means you can skimp on scuttling if you want, and pour that investment back into more models.

Wa...wait...that's...that's my Nid army! You're a genius!

I for one hope you do try stealer shock.

Let me enlighten you as to how it works against smart opponents in just one mission, taking the objective from the enemy.

Keep 1 unit on your objective in one mission and hope no one comes to clear you off it. So, you're down 1 stealer unit.

Then take everything else you've got and start marching towards the objective I've cunningly placed on my board edge, about 30" away from my shooty force--with nary a cover save to be found. About 24" away on the other side of it, I've placed my speed bump mobile assault force. I have a unit in reserve or one that is fast enough to get around you, and take your objective from you.

You can come play with my shooty element, in which case odds are you'll send 1 stealer unit towards my objective.

Gee, now you are down 2 stealer units. How many ya got? 6? So 4 gotta make it across the board to me, and you still have to deal with my assault force as I will gladly let you kill my entire shooty force in turns 3-5, and win by moving to the objective with my assault force. All I have to do is take one objective from you, and if you think you can stand around to contest an objective the other guy has placed so you can't get any cover saves you don't bring with you....yeah, I gotta kill you to the last stealer. Even with a 4+ save, you should know most armies will annihilate you if you are plinking them with 3 carnifexes worth of pathetic 5th ed shooting.

If I have a fast skimmer, I can avoid most of your army and most of your fire for most of the game (if not all of it) and force you off it. I win.

If I have a land raider, and you don't have a MC that can get to it--you can never take my objective from me with stealers, so...who cares? Oh since you are talking about 'efficiency' and telling me what a no-brainer is, don't forget to bring your S5 upgrade so you can at least glance AV14. You might be able to whittle down a LR then. Otherwise, I win by killing your MC and laughing at your stealers.

You won a tournament? Really? I had no idea. Glad Adepticon's missions are so uber you can beat them with stealer shock. Real tough competition and all. Point and click, WIN!

When you run Dawn of War, and your stealer shock list ends up behind the eight ball, and you lose every game--don't complain, ok? It'll be unseemly for a mighty 40k champion such as yourself to bitch your gak got nerfed and it's not you, it's the scenario. Remember, 3 gunfexes only! 6 stealer units. Rofl.

Zip diddle diddle, right up the middle. Yeah, good luck with your stealer army cent. You can't follow your creation rules and have a army that can win.

Not that GW intentionally nerfed your list or anything. Oh wait, they did.

Stelek, your arguments are seriously lacking in quality here. You seem to totally discount the value and efficacy of mobile firepower, and while I'm not claiming that winning a GT and the AdeptiCon Gladiator gives me any special insight, I've yet to see any real value in many of your comments.

Your comments on Acid Maw are insightful, but aside from that, you've contributed nothing of value to this thread aside from pumping up your own ego.

Mobile firepower is nerfed in 5th edition.

Besides mentioning how awesome you are, I've seen you show you don't understand 5th edition nor how your army you have a comfort level with doesn't work.

I've explained why and how.

Sorry, who isn't contributing? You and your fans?

I believe it was Darrian who first mentioned the GT and Adepticon btw. To me personally winning Tournaments does give someone special insight, validity, and credibility. I mean your all scout army might be dominating at your local shop but has it won a tournament. Those that have not won a sanctioned tourney may have some great insights or get the thought process rolling in different directions but it usually takes some one competent to make a new list or idea happen. If the new rumor on MC's firing one weapon only turn out to be true it may force new shock armies to actually require the dakka fex to make up for the sniper fex's decreasing shots. This may have the opposite effect of taking less shooty MC's because the barb strangler seems to be a less attractive option than the venom cannon on the sniper fex?