Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I played my first game of 40k Evar! I was psyched. It was a 500 point game and I had this list
HQs:
Demon Prince, MoS, LoS, Wings
Chaos Sorc, MoS, LoS
Troops:
6x CSM with flamer
6x CSM with flamer, aspiring champ with force weap

My opponent was playing tyranids and ran some stuff. Here is what I remember seeing on the board
HQs:
2x 3 warriors, one all had the same weapons but never fired a shot, the other had venom cannon and other stuff
Troops:
2x Tarmogaunts
1x Genestealers (Only 5 of them)
heavy?:
Dakkafex

Heres how it went. He rushed me down as I got a few lashes off. Someone who was looking at my paint job on my DP broke his sword hand off so I decided to deep strike him while trying to glue it back. It didn't happen. As they rushed toward me firing many ineffective shots into my CSM and Sorc in cover I failed my first Deep strike roll for my DP. Then everything started to go downhill. I lashed the Carnifex forward, shot at him and assaulted him because he laid down some pretty heavy fire on my dudes. The DP came in. But basically couldn't do anything because deep striking is the worst option available to anything ever, I hate it now. I lashed some dudes away from synapse and pinned them. Then tarmogaunts, genestealers, and warriors joined the fray with the carnifex I decided to assault. The genestealers did something called a sweeping advance and killed my sorc and 4 dudes by just rolling some leaderships, I was none to happy to find this out. I have no idea why a group of 5 genestealers who took out a few of my men are decided the crushing victors and get to do 7 wounds to my guys for free. As all my troops are swallowed up by tyranids my DP takes out some tarmogaunts by himself very handily. But I loose, it was a crushing defeat, and I felt like someone stomped on my puppy.

I'm planning on revising my list and removing the sorcerer and champ for another DP and running 2 DPs and the two units of 6 CSM with flamers. Any advice on how I should take this list to 1000 points? I was thinking of adding Termies and a unit of Khorne dudes in anticipation of 5th.

But what I'd really like to know is what did I do wrong?

You DSed your DP.

You targetted the Dakkafex first instead of the stealers.

You had no serious ranged firepower.

I also am not a fan of generic Chaos marines. I thik the dex has better troop choices you might want to look at.

Yeah, looking over the approximate minimum points costs of his units, if he's fitting that into 500 pts those must be some small gaunt squads, some cheap/weak warriors, and almost definitely no extended carapace on his genestealers (meaning that they probably don't get armor saves against bolters). Some more long-range shooting ought to tear him up (oh, and on that subject, I don't know how much the flamers will do if he's reasonably experienced; the extra "fleet of claw" movement that his little guys all get makes them pretty good at avoiding the worst of the flamer template... the points might work better in something with more range).

Seconding tegeus-Cromis, the genestealers are the main threat in his army (lucky that they die easily to shooting)... the dakkafex should be second.

Oh, and genestealers come in a 6-pack, minimum. If he's really only fielding five, it's not a legal squad, though in a small game between friends maybe you don't mind letting things like that slide (and I don't know if you want to encourage him to take more genestealers anyway )

tegeus-Cromis wrote:You DSed your DP.

You targetted the Dakkafex first instead of the stealers.

You had no serious ranged firepower.

Exactly what I was told afterwards. Deep Strikeing is junk and I shouldn't have done it. I targeted the DakkaFex first because it came at me front and center and was standing 12 inches away shooting me down from inside cover. So I lashed it out and engaged it. Shortly after that the genestealers presented themselves and came at me from the squads right flank. They had been hiding behind cover until my troops where tied up in CC. When they came around and engaged my men I immediately realized they were pretty dangerous in CC. I had been underestimating them. It was also 500 pts so I can't say much for my fire power. I'm not really able to field anything much different with those kinds of points restrictions.

I was shocked when he began to lay all of his models out. I didn't realize how many tyranids I would be going up against, I'll keep it in mind for next time and have the same mentality going against orks and IG.

Any suggestion on a change of list? I was hoping to be using lash to line up enemy troops so I could get them with some flamer action then assault the survivors. The sorcerer proved to be very fragile when attached to a unit that can be killed so easily. I'm thinking about removing the sorc and down grading the champ to add my second DP to the list. The DP proved very effective in his few active turns on the table.

I would suggest dropping one of your HQ choices. In 500 points, 2 lashes is probably 2 more than you really need but I could see the arguement for keeping one. Use extra points for more marines. This game is all about quantity over quality, chaos marines can have both.

One other thing I noticed is a lack of anything stronger than a bolter for shooting. Missile launchers are great weapons for their points, as are heavy bolters. You should consider using one or more. I say this because heavy weapons will threaten the carnifex more and if you play someone else who brings something like a dreadnought or predator you are limited to using your demon prince to assault it.

2 DPs in 500 pts. would be tough to handle. Do it if you want, but be prepared to be called unflattering things unless you face likeminded opponents.

There's not really no reason to play the game at that point.

Expect to get stomped in your 1st couple of games. Most people aren't born tacticians. Don't get discouraged because you get beat. Alot. You'll learn. Or you won't. At least if you suck lots of people will want to play you so they can win.

Your champion can't take the force weapon so I'd recommend switching it out with a PF for next time.

Don't forget you can use the lash to move enemy units away from you. Might be a good idea to keep everything from ending up in hand to hand all at once.

Cadian16th wrote:Your champion can't take the force weapon so I'd recommend switching it out with a PF for next time.

I ment power weapon. Sorry about the confusion. I was actually thinking about the powerfist anyway, I started an aspiring champ with one the other day.

Most people I play with are very tournament/competitive oriented and I don't think they would see me fielding 2 demon princes or any amount of cheese very negatively besides seeing it as a difficult challenge to overcome.

I've been considering reworking which psycher powers to give my DPs aswell. I only ever used LoS twice in the game and not really to much positive effect. I've thought about giving my DPs either Gift of Chaos or Doombolt. I really like the idea of Gift of Chaos. It offers either a buffer for my DP in CC if people try to focus on the toughness 5, 3+ save, 3 wound model instead of the DP or it's an extra attacker alongside the DP. I could use the high mobility of the DPs with Gift to quickly engage weaker units and start using Gift to get some Spawn out. It wouldn't change my list around much and would give me a few more guns to be shooting. Doombolt gives them something to do before assaulting a unit. but I was wondering under the current edition rules if a DP has the MoTz and Doombolt can he use/fire doombolt twice before assaulting in?

Don't underestimate warp time. I love it on my dps.

Well, first of all I think you should read the rule book through, then go and watch some games and try and pick up some tips from other chaos players. Most should be willing to help you.

I created a 500 pt list to show my daughter how to play once...
It was the new codex, but it's been a while.

There was a DP... Tzeentch with Warptime
a couple units of CSM (6 or 8 strong). 1 had a P-Fist & the other a P-Wpn, IIRC, a unit of 2 Oblits & a Predator with Las turret (don't recall sponsons).

As I recall, it wasn't too horrible. The Oblits & Pred were serious firepower, the CSM were middling firepower AND middling HtH, and the DP was a great HtH piece, as were the Oblits.

The forces were evenly balanced, as I just made 2 copies of the list & that's what we both fielded.

IMO, Oblits are a great unit to put into a 500 pt force because, while slow, they pack a punch in shooting AND HtH. Warptime on a DP is good, too, as is a Predator, if you can fit it in.

Eric

If you can get your hands on one cheap, replacing the sorc with a dreadnaught can be effective at a low points level. Dreads are not generally "good", especially Chaos dreads, but in low points games are hard to deal with for the enemy, and it is much easier to mitigate their "oops, shot my buddy" issue with a sparse table.

I say cheap because paying retail for a model you might not want later isn't a good idea in my book.

Alternately, I agree that dropping the sorc for more marines is a good call. In small games volume of fire seems to play a really big part since heavy weapons and vehicles are more difficult to fit in, and you can't take as many super specialized troops.

Wehrkind wrote:If you can get your hands on one cheap, replacing the sorc with a dreadnaught can be effective at a low points level. Dreads are not generally "good", especially Chaos dreads, but in low points games are hard to deal with for the enemy, and it is much easier to mitigate their "oops, shot my buddy" issue with a sparse table.

I say cheap because paying retail for a model you might not want later isn't a good idea in my book.

Alternately, I agree that dropping the sorc for more marines is a good call. In small games volume of fire seems to play a really big part since heavy weapons and vehicles are more difficult to fit in, and you can't take as many super specialized troops.

I really don't think I could run a dread. I'm just too afraid of them. Even in low points games I can see that one really destroying me. It could take out a DP or a Sorc if it was lucky enough. That random "I might kill you/myself" roll is why I hate Orks so much and I tend to avoid them as much as possible. I also don't think I'd run him at higher points. Although I do think it would look pretty cool on the board (Which might actually lead me to run a decked out one later on).

I was thinking of dropping the Sorc or maybe even the DP in favor of Khorne zerkers. They seem like they would really help against those swarm armies at low points, seeing as how 4 of the 14 people I regularly have a chance to play with play Tyranids.

Edit: P.S. How does everyone like my burgerkitty avatar?

imho, the p-fist could be a blessing or a curse. I say this because it has to attack last, or at least at i 1, and up against a 6 peice genestealer squad on the assult which has something like 12 or 18 attacks in HtH iirc, you may never get to use that one massively powerful hit. On the flip side though it would be great for takeing down your opponents bigger sh!t with the s8 hit it dishes out. (I pesonally took all the powerfists off my space marines after I lost horribly in 4 consecutive HtH rounds before I got to even roll for a single hit against some striking Scorpions who have a similair ammount of HtH attacks and have a higher I than most space marines (simmilair to your situation, just different races). fot attacking 1st in cc can really kill you). Maybe I'm just scarred there, I dunno, just tryin to play devils advocate to all this p-fist support here.

BTW, schweet burgerkitty pic.

Dessel Ordo wrote:imho, the p-fist could be a blessing or a curse. I say this because it has to attack last, or at least at i 1, and up against a 6 peice genestealer squad on the assult which has something like 12 or 18 attacks in HtH iirc, you may never get to use that one massively powerful hit.

Problem there is that the genestealers go first whether he takes the fist or not, so I1 makes next to no difference in that scenario.

Typeline: I'll second the Chaos Dreadnought. They're a poor-man's Terminator, but they have some redeeming qualities in lower points value games. Namely cheapness and counting as 10 models in assaults.

If you're afraid of a little friendly fire, I'd suggest plumping for a second Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon and a Heavy Flamer upgrade to one of the Twin-Linked Bolters. The Heavy Flamer will tend to be out of range, and Bolters hurt less than anything else you can arm a Dreadnought with.

Since you're facing at least four Tyranid armies, the Heavy Flamer won't have problems with range, or fire frenzy, because you'll be surrounded by the enemy pretty quickly. AP4 will defeat the inevitable Extended Carapace of the Genestealers, and two Heavy Flamer shots tends to evaporate Tyranid swarms. At short range, the Bolter that'll plink your own Marines can hit Tyranids much hard with four attacks.

Also, a Chaos Dreadnought can eat units like Dakkafexes.

Think ahead. If you can get a Dread cheap like Wehrkind says--and I mean really dirt cheap--then go for it, but if not, do you really want to fork out the cash for something that'll be left on the shelf once you hit 1000+ points? Get the second DP instead. There'll be room for that in any army.

Dire Wombat:

Problem there is that the genestealers go first whether he takes the fist or not, so I1 makes next to no difference in that scenario.

Not only that, but so do the Scorps!

I really like the idea Nurglitch suggested. I think I'll do a 110 pt Dreadnought with two CC weapons with the bolters upgraded to flamers. That way I can drop the flamer CSMs. I could use the DP to LoS the enemy units into the Dreadnought's path so he could double flamer them and assault with 4 attacks to clean up. I'll start looking around for a deal on one. If I can find it I'll be up a Dreadnought, otherwise I'll be fine and just be playing more in the 800 to 1000 pts games that are pretty common in my circle. Are Dreadnoughts made of plastic or metal?

I also had no idea power weapons attack on I1. That is dumb, but I could understand where it is useful.

I really like the idea Nurglitch suggested. I think I'll do a 110 pt Dreadnought with two CC weapons with the bolters upgraded to flamers.

Can't. Only one of the bolters can be upgraded to a heavy flamer.

That way I can drop the flamer CSMs.

How? You still need two Troops.

I also had no idea power weapons attack on I1. That is dumb, but I could understand where it is useful.

Power fists attack at I1. Power weapons attack at normal I. Doesn't stop PFs from being better in squads (not on most ICs).

Typeline:

I think I've mislead you somewhat. tegeus-Cromis is right: "Power Weapons" hit at the Initiative of the wielder, "Power Fists/Klaws" hit at Initiative 1. Only a single Twin-Linked Bolter can be upgraded to a Heavy Flamerthrower.

You get two Heavy Flamethrower attacks if you Fire Frenzy. You can't move or assault the turn that you Fire Frenzy, and the Heavy Flamethrower is best against things you don't really want to assault, like Genestealers (just move close to maximize the number under the template). Good idea with using the Lash to close the gap between the Dreadnought and its intended victims though. Remember that the Dreadnought will Fire Frenzy before you can use that power though.

You can make a cheap Chaos Dreadnought by looking on Ebay for a Furioso Dreadnought and converting it. I bought a plastic Dreadnought from the Warstore and bitz-ordered a Furioso right arm with an extra claw for the left army.

Another fun chaos unit at low point values are possessed. I know that they're not anybody's favorite, but the models are readily available, fun to convert, and backed up by oblits it takes a lot of fire power to drop both of them.

Polonius wrote:Another fun chaos unit at low point values are possessed. I know that they're not anybody's favorite, but the models are readily available, fun to convert, and backed up by oblits it takes a lot of fire power to drop both of them.

The models are fun, no doubt, but for 3 points less you can pick up a TS or a PM who is much harder to kill

A good idea might be to lash stuff out of synapse range. You could then assault a unit of gaunts, break them, then run them down.

The power fist confusion is only my confusion in terminology. I know it's power fist but sometimes anytime it's a power/force weapon/claw I confuse the term but I still have the right thing in my head and on paper if not the right name.

So I went out on Friday and bought some more troops and an Oblit. I couldn't find a cheap Chaos Dreadnought, and by the looks of things I wasn't going to be able too. I realized that they are made of metal and hard to come by other than wholesale. So I think my list is going to look like this when I have the troops done.

HQ: Chaos Sorc, MoS, LoS
Troops: 10x CSM
Troops(2): 10x CSM
HeavyS: Oblit

When I said I could remove the flamer's, I didn't mean the whole squad I meant the actual upgrade from my units. With the Oblit who can whip out a twin-linked flamer I think I'll be good without the flamer troops. I realize in lower points brackets (I played a few games this weekend) numbers can be much more important than quality.

Really, if your group is the kind that wouldn't bat an eye at dual-DP at 500 points, I cannot see this list doing anything but get stomped game after game.

Those CSMs (already the worst CSM Troops) need a special and heavy to be useful.

If you're only going to have a Sorc or a DP, make it the DP.

The Oblit is good, but you are very much mistaken if you think he can be relied on for flamer goodness. His job is to stand far back and blow stuff up. If you want him to flame stuff, you'll need to DS him to an Icon, which you don't have, and even then it is usually a waste of his points.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Really, if your group is the kind that wouldn't bat an eye at dual-DP at 500 points, I cannot see this list doing anything but get stomped game after game.

Those CSMs (already the worst CSM Troops) need a special and heavy to be useful.

If you're only going to have a Sorc or a DP, make it the DP.

The Oblit is good, but you are very much mistaken if you think he can be relied on for flamer goodness. His job is to stand far back and blow stuff up. If you want him to flame stuff, you'll need to DS him to an Icon, which you don't have, and even then it is usually a waste of his points.

In 500 I don't see the room to run all the Cult Troops CSM has. I've played a few more games now and the only time I ever really lose is versus numbers. The troops always do really well. I'm going to model some Heavy Bolter dudes up because I have some extras. I never really plan on running more basic CSM than this in any army I'll be playing.

As far as replacing them goes though. Do any of you think Noise Marines with blast master and sonic weapons on all the troops is good? I was planning on buying a few of them (they come in 8s I think) and doing three squads of five.

But when I have those Noise Marines I'd probably just be playing 1000 pts games. I'm still keeping the CSM but I'd have two squads of 14 with flamer, Khorne banner, Champ with power weap/fist. Then I'd have double DP with MoS, LoS, Wings. And finally the Noise Marine squads and Oblit (going to get my second Oblit soon, I want to be running 3 squads of 2 of them in my 2000)

Edit: I'm starting to like the idea of Thousand Sons as well. How much do they cost money wise, how many come in a box, and are they metal or plastic? I know Noise marines are plastic and come 8 to a box for 30$. But I'd imagine Ksons would probably be made of metal given my luck.