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All I'm saying is that if you're taking CSMs, why would you not at least take specials? It is easily worth losing a Marine or two for some specials.

The thing about your planned 14-man Khornate CSM squads is that for the same points, you could get 12 Berzerkers. Not the best unit, I know, but still more effective than the CSMs. Really, I am not dead set against basic CSMs, but I do think that if you want to make the best use of them, you have to either use them as generalists or as cheap disposables. These two areas (flexibility and cost) are the only things they've got going for them over the cults. Specialise them too much and you effectively end up with a second-rate cult unit instead.

Thousand Sons come in sets of 8 TSons and one Sorc. The TSons are hybrid metal and plastic (CSM kit with metal additions/substitutes) and the Sorc is metal. Have a look.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:All I'm saying is that if you're taking CSMs, why would you not at least take specials? It is easily worth losing a Marine or two for some specials.

The thing about your planned 14-man Khornate CSM squads is that for the same points, you could get 12 Berzerkers. Not the best unit, I know, but still more effective than the CSMs. Really, I am not dead set against basic CSMs, but I do think that if you want to make the best use of them, you have to either use them as generalists or as cheap disposables. These two areas (flexibility and cost) are the only things they've got going for them over the cults. Specialise them too much and you effectively end up with a second-rate cult unit instead.

Thousand Sons come in sets of 8 TSons and one Sorc. The TSons are hybrid metal and plastic (CSM kit with metal additions/substitutes) and the Sorc is metal. Have a look.

It took me a minute but I get what your saying. I'm starting to overvalue to basic CSMs and instead of running them as the base troops with good rounded ability that they are I'm trying to force them into a Khorne Zerkers role. I suppose the only reason I've done this is because I watched a few games where the zerkers just tried to run down someones position and got wasted by enemy fire. I think I'll drop the troop count on the CSM units from 14 to 10 and take away all their specials. I suppose I was just making them a point sink aswell. Thanks for your input.

You're welcome, but I do have to emphasise that the specials are worthwhile. They cost between one CSM and a third of a CSM each, so they aren't a huge points sink, and they increase the threat rating of the squad immensely. The more specialised upgrades can go hang (like I said, pay for IoK and a CC champ and you might as well get zerkers), but taking a couple of plasma guns in a 10-man squad is a decision you'll rarely have reason to regret.

So the 10 man CSM squads are still ok and 2xplas would make them good. I've always seen plasma guns and hated them because they have Gets Hot! so I avoided them. I haven't until now really looked at their profiles and they are good.

Edit: As I'm looking in the codex I see plasma pistols and guns. I should be getting the 15 point plasma guns right? Not the plasma pistols.

Yes, plasma guns. You can also give your champ a combi-plasma for 6 shots. Has anybody else tried havocs with 4 plasma guns in a rhino? Roll up on a squad, jump out, and blaze away. My luck with plasma isn't that good, though. Half of them might as well just stick their guns in their mouths and pull the trigger. But 'gets hot' is only supposed to be on a 1 in 5th, right?

i use to use a unit of 10 chosen with 4 plasmaguns but later switched them to being a devastator unit in a rhino with 4 plasmaguns. it works great. anything from marines, to eldar and tau battlesuits fear them greatly and using the rhino allows you to disguise them and keep the exact outfitting of them hidden until the last moment. also 10 devastators with IoCG and 4 plasma cost the same as 10 regular CSM's with 2 plasma and a champ with plasma pistol, so they're good n my book if you have extra heavy support slots open on the force org chart.

Typeline, definitely the plasma guns. Plasma pistols aren't generally worth it, as they only get one shot at 12" and can't fire to 24".

Rbb, that seems excessive to me. With cargo that lethal, who would let the Rhino survive to deliver it?

Bastirous666, don't you share lists before the battle? I know the BGB states you don't need to, but it is common practice nonetheless. Also, it's been a long time since I saw a Chaos lsit with a spare HS slot.

Wow.
The end is nigh. I can't remember ever agreeing with t-C so many times in one thread... or even one DAY...

Typeline, everything t-C has said is, pretty much, on the money here.
Opinions vary, of course, and I think that anything more than 8 CSM in a squad is a waste of points, really. If you give 'em a IoCG, you get to reroll your failed morale and, if you go with the cults, they're fearless and don't need to worry about how many wounds they take (for morale purposes).

Drop 4 CSM and you are close to having what you need for a second Oblit. Sorry but, IMO, having one single Oblit out there with his hanging in the wind is not a great idea. One S8 shot wound and your entire unit is as good as gone.

As for your earlier post on buying models, you should check out:

www.thewarstore.com
www.chaosorc.com
(both reputable sellers... Chaos Orc sometimes has OOP stuff for even cheaper than the new stuff -- like the recently OOP CSM, which are not too different from the new ones)
www.bartertown.com
(You can pick up stuff SUPER cheap)

My favorite is bartertown. You can get models in conditions that range from brand new to assembled and painted, and everywhere in between.
Word to the wise, though... stay away from anything painted unless they provide you (clear) pictures first.

Later!!

Eric

I don't play in 500 pt games(not many people interested in that level where i play) .. but here is what I would take:

DP, MOS, Lash, Wings
7 berzerkers, champ with PW. (29 str 5 hits on the charge should be able to handle most things).
7 Noise Marines with sonic blasters, champ with PW or Doom Siren if enough points. Thats 12 str 4 shots a round to kill stealers and then anything else not in combat after stealers are not a threat.

Both of these units are fearless so won't have to check to run away if they start losing a fight or take shooting casualties. Also, both squads can keep moving with the prince to put pressure on the enemy, so you arn't rushing forward with one part of your army while the other hangs around in the back. The drawback with this list is that your only antitank is the DP, but in 500 I wouldn't be too worried about that, unless you expect Falcons. Your model count is also going to be hurting at this low point level no matter what you do, so look out for shooty armies(like) tau or eldar that can output a lot of shooting at this level.

Ignore me if any of this doesn't make sense, the people already posting are giving good advice and have much more experience than I.

Meph

After lurking more, posting more, and playing more I've got to dig this one back up for a kind of 'final'-ish revision of my CSMs

HQ: DP, wings, LoS, MoS x2 310 pts
Troops: 11 CSM with Icon of Khorne 195 pts, 11 CSM with Icon of Khorne 195 pts
HS: 2 Oblits 150 pts, 5 Chaos Havocs with 4 heavy bolters and champ

This list addresses the problem in my meta of a ton of swarm armies namely 2 new Orks players,5 Nids, and 1 IG. The Havocs are a good unit to put in the lead of the firing while the CSM with IoK engage in CC. I know they suck, but they are cheaper than 10 zerkers by 15 points with one more body than they on the table. This 1000 point first draft of my playing 40k will probably go pretty well when the painting is done. The first replacement I'm making is the CSM though. That 390 pts along with the 500 to 1500 could be well spent on some fearless Cult troops (I'm thinking Noise Marines and Zerkers but I change my mind every day on that one).

First off, be glad there are so many xeno/guard players. The main reason I quit playing IG was that everyone at my FLGS seemed to play a loyalist marine army and I wanted to play games that made sense in context of the background.

It seems that people who are a lot better at building army lists than me have given you lots of help on the front loaded part of the game, which I can't really help you with as my Eldar list is not an optimized list. However, after playing for many years against players of all abilities, I can give a few suggestions on the tactics side of things.

First and foremost, know what every unit can do and what the odds success are. For things that wound, know the odds for everything in your army wounding T3 and T4. If you're not into math, get a chart that lists the probability of numbers rolled on 2d6 and memorize it. All and all get a good feel for what the odds are. For instance, if I shoot a squad of marines with my Dire Avengers using bladestorm, I can pretty much count on killing three out of a squad of 10.

Have some idea of what you're opponent is bringing to the table. When I played second ed, I had the cash to blow on all the codicies. I do not now, so I can understand if that is an issue. If you have regular opponents, borrow that codex and study it for an hour or so. Ask lots of questions. Since the codicies are availible to anyone, if you ask an opponent what a unit does it is unreasonable for him not to tell you. If something sounds too good to be true, don't be shy about asking to see the codex. I don't get offended by that, as I, like everyone else, can sometimes see the good part of the rule without the bad part ( for me that is ).

40k is very front loaded. This includes deployment. Don't deploy hoping you'll get that one shot that kills the Land Raider. Always deploy as if you know you're getting second turn. If you're fighting an assault heavy army then arrange it so that they have to get out of cover to get at you. When deploying and moving, mind the infiltrators and deep strikers. Try to set it up in such a way that minimizes their advantage. Same for shoot and scoot. If you're going up against, say, eldar warp spiders, don't get in a situation where they can shoot you then jump behind an obstacle. I learned this the hard way fighting Tau.

Always have your mind a turn or even two in the future. Ask yourself if that MC can charge you next turn. Try to plan assualts so you think you'll win the assualt in your opponents turn and therefore have your turn ahead to take cover ( that is, unless you can consolidate into a new assualt). I have killed many vehicles with my wraithlord w/ wraithsword. Why? There is no excuse for it as any vehicle ( excepting walkers ) can move away faster than I can charge. Don't neglect to think ahead.

Before you do anything, stop and think. Ask yourself why you're doing what you're planning to do. I've found many new players will move all their non-heavy weapon infantry in their movement phase just because they can. Why get closer to an enemy that is strong in assault when you have lots of shooting. You need a very good answer to that question if you're going to do it. I made a bad mistake along these lines last game I played when I moved some guardians into the charge range of a bunch of Kroot. The only thing that saved me is that he forgot that his little move through cover thing only applied to woods, and fortunately for me he rolled two 3's to move into the fortification I was in. On both accounts, failure to look ahead.

Finally, remember your rules. I have to be very careful that I remember to use my Farseer's powers at the beginning of the turn. If I do not and move on with the turn, then I technically cannot go back and do the powers. Although a lot of people in friendly games will let stuff like that slide, you're much more likely to be called on something like that during a tourney. Ask yourself at the beginning of every turn what you need to be doing.