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Well i Think raptor can be really good units assigning them mision such as kiling enemy heavy weapon units, or destroying tanks.

My doubts is, would you guys throw 2 melta on a 7 guys raptor units?, the thing is that with melta they loose 1 atack, so I think one is compulsory because on the way to the enemy back side they can shoot 1 tank or so, and you still get 6 guys with good C/C, but what about 2 meltas? is it worth it?

The other antitanq the army has is, a 7 guy CSM with melta, 2 oblit, Land raider, fusion bombs on the serkers, and the 5 termi unit with 2 combi-melta and a chain fist, so what to do?

that one extra CC attack will not make a huge difference overall in the grand scheme of things, and the meltagun can easily make it's points back in one shot at a tank, or on the way into combat with the enemy

Actually, if you look at the Raptor listing closely you will notice that Raptors do not have bolters and under the option for the meltagun it says, and I quote: "Up to two Raptors may replace their pistol with a plasma pistol for 15 pts per model, or take one of the following: ...meltagun for 10 pts per model..."

The operative word there is "take". They do not replace anything to get the meltagun (they have no two handed weapon so they don't need to replace anything). Therefore they still get their +1 attack bonus in hand to hand. You can have your cake and eat it!

Edit: And to clarify if you look under the listing for regular Chaos Marines you will notice that they "replace" their bolter in order to get their meltagun. This makes me quite positive that the wording of take instead of replace in the raptor listing is quite intentional and not just sloppy wording on GW's part.

ok im spanish and my our GW translators pretty much sux, its allways the same in spanish it say:
"up to two raptors may replace the bolt pistol por a plasma pisto (+15 points per model) or for one of the followings: ..... meltagun (+10 points per model)

That really sucks, it seems like the Spanish language book lost something in translation. There's definitely a subtle but important difference between those two wordings. I don't suppose anyone would be convinced if you pointed out the English (original) wording to them?

Or, you know, the Spanish translation is just harder to twist out of context than the original English.

Regardless, it might be something to take a Flamethrower and a Melta Gun. If you take Melta Bombs on the Aspiring Champion, then you have stuff for opportunity fire at tanks and you'll have something to soften up assault targets. Raptors move fast enough to get the Flamethrower in close enough that it likely won't hinder the follow-up charge, and with such a small unit you'll want to soften units up as much as possible so the assault on the survivors is decisive.

Nice one, Nurglitch. Get your shot off knowing that no one can rebut you without bringing the thread off-topic. Then, when someone does, you'll accuse them of being more interested in contradicting you than addressing the topic at hand. Slick.

Suffice it to say that the English version does not say the same thing as the Spanish. That said, it's obvious that the OP can't very well insist on using a different language version simply because it benefits them, so they'll have to live with losing one attack. Is it worth it? I'd say yes, definitely. Highly mobile melta guns are absurdly good in 5th; mobile flamers, too, get better (and were already good). The two normal attacks you lose are really no big deal. If you take a champ, you'll be relying heavily on him anyway, and if you don't, the unit needs the two specials to be a credible threat in the first place.

tegeus-Cromis: I can always rely on you to take the low road. Stay classy.

Why are flamers getting better on 5th?

So would you go 1 melta 1 flamer instead of 2 melta?

I fail to see what I am taking "out of context". If anything I'm putting the wording into context by comparing it to other listings in the book and how they are equiped and how that is reflected in the wording of their options.

The use of the word "take" seems very deliberate to me. It would have been a lot easier to just cut and paste the options from other units with the word "replace" in it. Instead they changed it to reflect the fact that the unit doesn't come with two handed weapons (bolters) so they don't have to "replace" anything.

It is a pretty easy distinction to miss though and clearly the translators of the Spanish book did miss it.

Flamers get better because in 5th, you place and resolve them at the same time. Currently, you resolve each template in a squad in turn. That means quite often your second template will hit fewer guys than your first (because some have died).

I would stick with dual flamer or dual melta. One melta isn't really reliable enough.

The CSM book is riddled with units getting to keep BP/CCW when they upgun, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. we could boot this into YMDC (if it hasn't been hashed out already).

I think raptors are going to be a key unit to Chaos armies. They're cheap, they get meltas and lightning claws, and they have shockingly little competition in fast Attack.

the real question, for me, is what icon to give them? I think for smaller squads, Chaos Glory or Slaanesh will be better simply because they are cheaper, but a bigger (7-8) man squad could really hit hard with khorne.

Does anybody have any expereicne with Nurgle or Tzeentch raptors? Are they worth it? Obviously they protect against different attacks, either basic attacks or armor piercing.

well then flamers seem good option, how about 1 flamer and 1 melta so the can either go shoot at a tank or soften a unit before assaulting? and i save 5 points which is needed

kaintxu wrote:well then flamers seem good option, how about 1 flamer and 1 melta so the can either go shoot at a tank or soften a unit before assaulting? and i save 5 points which is needed

Absolutely not. Mixing weapons is generally A Bad Thing. The reason is that if you need them to pop a tank, you have half the chance. One melta against AV14 has under a half chance of penetrating. Two meltas bumps that chance to nearly 75%, which is a much more reliable anti-tank option. Likewise, any time you'd actually want a flamer, you'll want two.

Whether having complementary weapons or redundant weapons is a good thing depends on what the rest of your army is doing, and other characteristics of units (such as the Combat Squads rule). If most of the units in your army are specializing with redundant weapons, then specialize the Raptors to complement the other units. If most of the units in your army are generalizing, then generalize the Raptors so you have a redundant unit.

The thing not to forget is that adding meltas at all already generalizes the unit. Raptors are inherenlty good at shooting and assaulting infantry, a flamer just makes it better at that. Meltas add a new option: shooting MCs, termies, and Vehicles. The raptors stay pretty good at their old role, they just also now have a secondary role.

Mixing the two weapons is being highly wishy washy. I supposed if you have plenty of anti-tank in your army, but you want to make sure you don't get caught with your pants down, dropping one flamer for a melta isn't a terrible decision, but it's stil strapping a small amount of anti-tank onto a unit that's predominatly anti-infantry.

I guess my point would be: if you're going to dual purpose your units, don't screw around. Adding longshot possibilities at the expense of making a unit even better at it's day job doens't actually solve many problems. anyway, I'd rather plug for a melta bomb and two flamers then a flamer and a melta.

Polonius: That's true, just taking one Melta Gun is risky. Adding Melta Bombs to the Champion would add some cheap insurance for opportunity fire if they wander by a tank on the way to jump an infantry squad.A Plasma Pistol would be expensive insurance. Hence one Melta Gun, one Flamerthrower, and Melta Bombs on the Champion seems about right for all-purpose.

I think it also helps to repeat: "If you're going to dual purpose your units, don't screw around."

I don't know that I would bother with the flamer in the case of melta gun and bombs. It seems to me that dual flamers with melta bomb vet would be best for anti-infantry with a chance at killing a vehicle (my Seraphim run like this) or dual metla-gun with maybe the bomb for extra help.

The problem with meltagun/flamer/melta bomb is that you don't seem to be focusing enough for the points you are spending. There does not seem to be much synergy in spending 10 points for a chance to shoot a tank on a unit that is by far focused on killing infantry in melee. 5 points for a melta bomb (in addition to krak, correct?) is pretty cheap and probably worth it. 10 points that don't add much utility and take away from possible utility that matches the purpose, that seems like a poor use of points.

It seems to me that raptors are fast enough that they can be reliably used for a specific purpose without having to worry too much about another. More of a scalpel than a chef's knife. While I would mix melta/flamer on a foot slogging Sisters squad, if I have the mobility of raptors, I expect to be able to put them where needed.

Personally, I run with melta guns and I see it this way. With the melta guns I can always jump up to a squad of MEQs, vaporize a few guys with shooting (thanks to the two str. 8 ap 1 shots) and then charge and stand a pretty good chance of winning. Sure I could do that with dual flamers too BUT the meltaguns coupled with the champion's power fist gives me the flexability to go tank hunting when the situation calls for it. If I had taken the flamers tank hunting probably wouldn't be option. The only reason i could see taking flamers would be if I expected to play in an environment without a lot of armor and/or monsterous creatures.

I really disagree that Raptors make effective generalists. That kind of thing works in, say, a Fire Dragon squad with DBF + CS Exarch, because the AT in that unit is as close as a sure thing to busting a tank as you can get, and the anti-horde likewise guaranteed to gut 4+ or worse troops. You can throw the unit at either of the two targets its designed for and know that it will usually achieve impressive results. In a Raptor squad, however, splitting the specials gives you a chance at taking out a tank, but not a very good one, and a chance at softening up a squad, but only that. Such a unit could save your ass in a tight spot, but unless you have multiples of it, it can't be relied on to do what needs to be done.

I allready have 4 melta guns:
-1 on CSM
-1 on CSM
-2 on termi combi weapons.
-Land raider

then i have 2 obliterators plus power fists on most units and demon prince thats all my AT, wo what should i go with?

againts hrode i ve got the 8 T-son which also work againts marines, the flamer would help to soften eldar, nids and orcs when i charge i dont know what to do hehe

If you really want to dual purpose your raptors I suggest taking two flamers and a chainfist (yes chainfist) on the AC. This can make your raptor squads a bit more expensive than you might be comfortable with so I would only run this setup if you only had one, maybe two squads of raptors; otherwise specialize them.

Too bad you can't take a chainfist on the AC.

Yeah I just realized that now, I'm still getting the parts of the old and new chaos codex confused...
Apologies to all

give it a look at the list and advice me on some questions I ask please.

Im going for the 2 melta, but i need to work out the point distribution and make some changes so tell me what you think please

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/211570.page

Melta are definately the way to go. Flamers are a fun weapon but they can get your Raptors into trouble. More often than not your opponent will remove flamer casualties in a way that will keep you from charging in the Assault phase. Then you're just hanging in the breeze for the enemy shooting phase.

Would a squad of 18 be a good to back up two Deamon princes with wings? I do not have the points in my 1k sons army for 2 units of 9 but I could do 2 units of 7 or the big block. I normally play Orks and for my money I like large mobs but I am new with none horde armies.

The army includes thre units of 9 1k sons, and 4 oblits, along with the princes and 18 raptors.

Another question:

Are the claws worth it on this guys? i mean its 10 poiints to repeat to wound on 4 attacks on charge, 3 otherwise which makes that usually 2 hits on charge and 1,5 otherwise (is it owrth paying them?

It isn't about whether the LCs themselves are worthwhile, but whether they are the most worthwhile choice out of PW, LCs and PF. I'd say the LCs are definitely better than the PW, but the PF is usually the best choice. If you take IoK, the PF becomes still more attractive, since you're now comparing 3(4) S8 attacks against 4(5) S4 re-roll-to-wound attacks. If you take IoS, the LCs become more attractive for obvious reasons.

Im taking IoS for the I and because points only allow me for those and so they attack first