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The Chaos Conclave and the Master of the Chapter are basically the same thing, with different abilities. The units both cost the same points and have the same break down. My rant is that MotC get 4 strategic assets while CC gets 2. Nothing like being 500 points down. Got to love GW SM bias. Am I wrong or is this truely out of whack?

Nope, not out of whack.

Any of the Coven characters would whipe the floor with any of the marine characters, any day of the week. Their superior battelfield abilities are countered (in a 1:1 comparison) by the Strategic Assets of the loyalists.

From a fluff point of view, the loyalists are far more organised, with greater support, (generally) less flexibility, and more (what we would understand as) strategic training. Chaos is, by its very nature, chaotic, the opposite of all the traits listed above, and logic dictates (from this perspective) that loyalists have more strategic assets, and chaos less.

Master of the Chapter doesn't get to take librarians or chaplains, while CC get demon princes and sorcerers, and can take more of them then the MoC. Plus the CC doesn't lose its assets if a specific character dies.

Also, you get unique assets (kinda).

The Orbital bombardment has as many dice as HQ that you have in it, so if you put like, 10 characters/lords in it, its a very strong attack, provided you aren't attacking a 2+ save.

The Disruptor beacon on each guy gives the beacons mobility, as well as having at least 5 of them, having them cover the whole board.

And Chaos can take Masters of the Chapter on top of their own Enclave - since they are allowed to take any Imperial units in Apocalypse. So they are ahead once again by a wide margin!

Democratus wrote:And Chaos can take Masters of the Chapter on top of their own Enclave - since they are allowed to take any Imperial units in Apocalypse. So they are ahead once again by a wide margin!

Which would make the reverse true as well. Yes? That would take them back towards even.

It's not fair to say that, since you can take whatever you want in Apoc, to just take that formation with your army of a different type. To have a fair and balanced discussion/comparison, it's only fair to treat them as separate entities.

Eric

Where does it imply anywhere that Chaos can use an Imperial sheet like that? The sheet requires Masters and a Chapter Master, which aren't in the CSM codex.

Maybe I'm just a stickler, but it sounds of blasphemy.

The apocalypse book states quite clearly that chaos and only chaos can take any Imperial datasheet that they want. It's in a box on page 117, on the marine Linebreaker formation page. And it says traitor versions. I'd say that since chaos doesn't have Masters, you'd just be required to take 4 chaos lords and a special character [or another lord] for the Masters of the Chapter formation, and you'd have to identify which one was which.

Same with the Battle Company - raptors instead of assault squads, havocs for devastators, and since chaos doesn't have command squads, a squad of chosen or chosen terminators.

It's not "anyone can use anyone's datasheets". Just chaos using imperial. How did you think chaos got linebreaker squadrons? They didn't reprint it in the chaos section or anything.

-Spellbound

It also says in the book that you can use anything you want in your army (not a direct quote, obviously) and to just find a reason (i.e. make crap up) about why such a coupling would happen. So, to reiterate, anyone can use it.
Hmm... a Tau force bolstered by the Khorne Blood Rain thing (don't recall the name off hand)... LOL

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:It also says in the book that you can use anything you want in your army (not a direct quote, obviously) and to just find a reason (i.e. make crap up) about why such a coupling would happen. So, to reiterate, anyone can use it.
Hmm... a Tau force bolstered by the Khorne Blood Rain thing (don't recall the name off hand)... LOL

Eric

Yes, but in the above case, you would have a Tau force and a Chaos force. They would be separate armies and would be unable to share many abilities. A Chaos force can take any Imperial Datasheet and it is still a single Chaos force.

This is why there is a special note in the book for it. This is why, for example, Chaos can field a Linebreaker Squadron.

Democratus wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:It also says in the book that you can use anything you want in your army (not a direct quote, obviously) and to just find a reason (i.e. make crap up) about why such a coupling would happen. So, to reiterate, anyone can use it.
Hmm... a Tau force bolstered by the Khorne Blood Rain thing (don't recall the name off hand)... LOL

Eric

Yes, but in the above case, you would have a Tau force and a Chaos force. They would be separate armies and would be unable to share many abilities. A Chaos force can take any Imperial Datasheet and it is still a single Chaos force.

This is why there is a special note in the book for it. This is why, for example, Chaos can field a Linebreaker Squadron.

... and now I understand the point you are making. It was unclear to me that you meant it in that way. It came across more as a "can or can't do that" type of thing (to me).

Eric

So, this being the case, if you wanted to mock the Masters of the Chapters sheet, would you use Masters from C: SM or Lords from C: CSM?

I would use Tyranids mock ups just to use to absurd amount of strategic assets the datasheet is given.

It states the "allies" are suggestions. Even though Chaos can field any imperial, it also states that anyone can field anything they own.

rarrr.

My understanding is that basically any army can use any data sheet. However, whichever data sheet you use, the points, rules and codex the sheet follows must followed. The models you use to represent the unit in the data sheet are flexible and best worked out with your gaming group.

If a player takes the Chaos Conclave, the Conclave must use and follow the rules out of Codex: CSM
If a plyaer takes the Masters of the Chapter, the Masters must use and follow the rules out of the Codex: SM

One cannot take a Chaos Conclave and fill it with SM Capts and SM characters.

Yes. But a Chaos player can take a Masters of the Chapter datasheet, use the models from the SM codex which are required on the datasheet, and still be playing a purely Chaos army.

You can do the same thing with the Chaos Conclave if your playing Space Marines. What is your point?

That IS the exact point we were clarifying.

Techboss wrote:You can do the same thing with the Chaos Conclave if your playing Space Marines. What is your point?

Uhh... are you not listening?

Yes, Apoc is set up broadly so that, technically, anyone can bring anything.

What we're saying is that, on top of this, Chaos has a specific rule that allows them to take Imperial formations (modified to use Chaos units), the example being the Linebreaker Squadron.

BYE

random comment: Apoc is just plain fun, especially for chaos. Pity the Eldar datasheets are so lacklustre.

The Chaos Coven thing looks fine to me, not that I am an expert on Apoc. I have to agree that the Imperial one is limited by the fact that the characters it comes are kind of ... sub-par. It is not exactly the same as 5 Jump-pack Chaplains or 5 Fear and Fury Termie Libbies or 5 Commanders on Bikes (speaking of which, 5 Commanders on Bikes would make a SWEET Apoc sheet )

But they are nice models with a cool idea. Imperials are weird, Chaos are just evil and nasty. GAME ON!

The Masters of the Chapter are TRADITIONALLY armed with what you see on those models. Naturally in a chapter like the Blood Angels or Dark Angels Ravenwing, the captains would be wearing something else.

So you're limited to Special Character/Captain + 4 other captains, but you can arm them however you want, so long as it's obvious they're different and you mark down which is the Master of what.

I think there's a factor people are missing here about Apoc. You certainly can take anything you want... Orks+Necrons+Tau, with a spiffy, quick-on-my-feet-improvised background as to why such forces are allied. However, the orks and necrons wouldn't benefit from an ethereal, tau won't get to waagh!, orks and tau models don't affect phase out number (if you choose to keep phase out, I can imagine a couple of super-nasties might phase out necrons pretty damn quickly), etc. Essentially, they are three seperate and distinct armies fighting together.

The ONLY exception is Chaos utilizing imperial datasheets. A chaos force could use a damocles rhino, for example, and gain full effect of it's special rules. If SM and Tau allied together, on the otherhand, the Tau would NOT get to use the special rules of the damocles when the time comes to bring in all those reinforcements, or whatever its special rule is these days.

Its 4 am here, so I'm not gonna bother to try to think up any extra examples, I hope that suffices.