Beating the new daemons

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**Waaagh_Gonads**

Cries of cheese have echoed the halls of the intraweb since the first glimpses of the new daemon book were leaked.
So what are ways to beat them.

High Elves:
1: Dragon armour- flaming attacks don't harm you- skulltaker and almost every tzeentch attack is flame based. Either heavy dragon princes and characters in dragon armour. Challenge skulltaker (which he must accept) and laugh as his killing blow is rendered useless.
2: Drain magic- Just to stomp their magic phase.

Lizardmen:
1: Blade of realities +/- banehead on old blood with COJW. Banehead the greater daemon- no ward save, and every wound caused 4 wounds!!!

Empire:
1: Leave the STANK at home, it will be slaughtered by all the high strength attacks.
2: Hellblasters would be essential and cannons should help out, especially against greater daemons and the heavy 'monster cav'.

Anyone got some others?

**40kenthusiast**

Seems like the most important thing about Codex: Daemons is that it is yet another 'Dex with nobody who isn't ITP.

So no fleeing, and they don't have undead's ability to gain additional troops midgame, with a few mostly insignificant exceptions.

Add to this that their force is usually small and elite, and you've got an army that is vulnerable to hordes using Flee & Flank tactics. My guess would be that the best way to handle Daemons is to hang back and cause casualties via stuff that they don't get any chance to negate (salamanders, artillery, etc.) They'll probably have a big flying boss, he's got to get handled carefully, but their blocks are no more mobile than anybody else's, flee pelt and flank.

**PistolWraithCaine**

Tzeentch flamer shooting attacks are not flaming nor are their magic missles so dragon armor won't help you.

Because of the different armies people can make out of the daemon book, it'll be hard to give a strategy for beating the entire book.

For Khorne BL Hordes I would try and shoot the crap out of them and avoid being charged but that's a pretty general statement.

As an Ogre player, tzeentch looks like our worst nightmare and using maneuver to try and get the charge on daemonettes is essential to using impact hits to negate ASF.

The general problem ogres are going to have with this army is that we can't break any of the units...they just possibly crumble instead. So you're going to be fighting a losing fight because of great weapons.

**Boss Salvage**

PistolWraithCaine wrote:The general problem ogres are going to have with this army is that we can't break any of the units...they just possibly crumble instead. So you're going to be fighting a losing fight because of great weapons.

The "Magic Screw" standard really kicks gut magic in the manly bits as well, and is yet another 'always taken' item in the demon book

That said, any thoughts on Hell Heart being more worth it with demons in the pool?

- Salvage

**PistolWraithCaine**

Yeah that banner is great against gut magic. I think the hell heart will be useful against slaanesh, however, I'm not exactly sure how miscasts affect the pink horror sorcerer units, if it only affects one nominated model then the hell heart won't really deter them from casting their spells. However it could still be useful in helping to shut down their magic for a turn but it won't have the affect it would have on a VC, Nurgle, HE..etc etc with sorcerers that can die from miscasting.

**Darkness**

miscasts kill D6 with no saves

**PistolWraithCaine**

So that's not even a really big deal, I'd still risk trying to cast something on two dice.

**mercutio531**

There really is no "cure all" for the book. There are waaay too many possibilities of lists to come up with for any other army to say "Oh Im fighting Deamons? I'll take list X."

Though Im curious if the Flamer D6 attack counts as flaming. It says "normal missile weapon" but we know earlier in the book it ALSO says "all deamon attacks magical blah blah blah..." The attack HAS FLAME in the title...

And this is prolly covered in another thread somewhere (Im new here), but would Killing Blow double up on Flaming attack or is it a separate effect? Has there ever been an official answer to this? The way I see it is getting your head lopped off isnt the same as getting burned by a sword. Something fighting Skulltaker with immunity to fire would either get its head lopped off from KB, or nothing at all... But I could be wrong...

**malfred**

Well, I guess the thing to consider is to build your list as if
you know you might have to play against demons. If you
do that, what elements do you need to beat them and what
do you already have on hand that can handle a demon list
that is also tooled for general play?

In a perfect world, that is. That's why I'm thinking I need
two armies: so if I schedule a game with someone I can
retool to avoid him doing stuff to my army based on his
knowledge of my army.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

mercutio531- If you are immune to flaming attacks, then the attacks should not be able to harm you and in my gaming group we don't even roll for the attacks. As killing blow follows on after the attack is made (which by this reasoning cannot harm you) you cannot be killing blowed.

I think the fast stuff is the stuff to focus on first with shooting and magic. that should allow your warmachines to last past turn 2 (If I had any slaaneshi units that is where they would go to).

**Buzzsaw**

mercutio531 wrote:And this is prolly covered in another thread somewhere (Im new here), but would Killing Blow double up on Flaming attack or is it a separate effect? Has there ever been an official answer to this? The way I see it is getting your head lopped off isnt the same as getting burned by a sword. Something fighting Skulltaker with immunity to fire would either get its head lopped off from KB, or nothing at all... But I could be wrong...

The new High Elf FAQ* (updated 2/24/08... yeah) resolves the issue of models immune to flaming attacks; regardless if it's "a flaming cannonball, flaming sword" or so on, "They are immune to the entire attack." Since all of Skulltaker's attacks are Flaming, he cannot so much as touch anyone wearing Dragon Armour.

*Look under the "Vaul's Forge" section.

**mercutio531**

Buzzsaw wrote:The new High Elf FAQ* (updated 2/24/08... yeah) resolves the issue of models immune to flaming attacks; regardless if it's "a flaming cannonball, flaming sword" or so on, "They are immune to the entire attack." Since all of Skulltaker's attacks are Flaming, he cannot so much as touch anyone wearing Dragon Armour.

*Look under the "Vaul's Forge" section.

Thats all I wanted to hear. Dont know if I agree, but hey. I'll take it.

**blackgaurd**

does anyone have any suggestions on how vamp counts can contend with daemons? Ive played against an all Khorne list, which slaughtered me in the second turn, and a Tzeentch list with some sort of hero (it was called blue something) that gained a power dice every time i cast a spell. Lets see magic heavy vamps so thats 8(6+pool) dice for the lord, 2 vamps with 2, and one with one, all casting invocation of nehek, thats right he gained something like 10 power dice from my spells!!!

i cant compete with that

**cypher**

Demons have to much variety to give an easy method of counter, it depends on the lists involved.

**PistolWraithCaine**

They aren't flaming, does it say flaming in the description? Just because it says fire it doesn't mean anything. DP can be hurt by flamer shooting and tzeentch magic missles.

As to the VC question, good luck..you can't break them with fear, they have crumble except it's better than yours. Except that their units are actually really effective unlike most of the VC units. It's like they took the strengths of a few armies and put them all into one super army.

**AMP187**

New Daemons book is pretty balanced.

I laugh at the HE and VC players going "What am I gonna' do?!?"

**mercutio531**

AMP187 wrote:New Daemons book is pretty balanced.

I laugh at the HE and VC players going "What am I gonna' do?!?"

Deamons CAN be balanced... Id think an all Tzneetch Army would tear some stuff up. Each unit of horrors (3+ units) will have at their disposal a magic missile of D6+1 of D6+1 Str, on a 4+, 3+ if they take the magic banner. Wheedle your opponents dispel dice down Ogre Style, possibly tear some stuff up if it goes through. Get enough units or horrors to make it work. THEN you have your characters which start at level 2 and for only 20 points (which doesnt count towards item limit) can fly, or you can keep them with your horrors and increase your 5+ ward to a 4+. Then the is the Tzneetch Lord. Awesome magic and a decent combat monkey in his own right.

Then the shooting phase. 2 units of flamers that do 6D6 shooting attacks EACH, within 18 inches with a decent BS of 4.

Then just to be a total jerk you can take a few units of screamers to A) March Block, and B) Fly over them inflicting several hits while they cant attack back and then you land where they cant see/charge you.

I know for a fact some people are taking this list already. I personally think I would only use it against someone I really didnt like. Otherwise I wouldnt play it.

**cypher**

Just remember, that horror unit with the char in it costs over 500 pts and will lose combat to a large clanrat unit (of which I can get 3 for your price).

**Mannahnin**

As long as you can get some of those clanrat units into combat, you're good!

Tzeentch pure magic/shooty armies are going to be ridiculous. Unless you have the speed and durability to get intact combat units there within the first two-three turns, you’re going to get hosed against a pure magic/shooty tzeentch list. It’s going to be one of the least fun and interesting games in your life. Matt Birdoff’s already written them off; he’s planning to bring them to one GT and shelve the list, because it’s just too boring and brutal.

Of course Empire and Dwarves, and other armies with cheap + plentiful war machines (like O&G with their 35pt bolt throwers) will be able to put some hurt on if the table/terrain allow. Most of the big daemons can be killed by cannonballs and bolt throwers, and being reduced to 5 wounds on all the greaters except the Great Unclean One makes it easier.

Other lists I think will be interesting and reasonably balanced. Model count is low. Vampire Counts in particular will do well against the fighty Daemon armies, because they can just raise more stuff and CR the Daemons down.

**dogma**

I will be interested to see how Khorne demons do against VC, since I think that's the army I'm going to build up when I get back home.

Full units of Letters which don't run and can probably overcome my static CR through kills...scary.

The obvious solution would be the helm, if only to cut down on the number of hits. Though having a lone vamp float around in an environment which features Bloodthirsters is somewhat questionable.

Then again, this might be an army against which Bloodknights are actualyl useful.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

Blood Knights up the centre sounds a great option. your opponent can't flee and hopefully if you deploy the blood knights last your opponent would have plopped infantry down in the centre of his line....

I'm working on the assumption that the PD generated by the blue scribes are pool dice and not for his/their express use (no book with me ATM)... if so go 2 black coaches. You will have uber machines of death within 2 turns.

**blackgaurd**

good point with the coaches gonads thanks. Now all i have to do is figure out how to kill a blood thirster while surviving the horror and scribe magic missile attacks

**mercutio531**

Can deamons "not flee"? Nowhere in the book are they listed as Unbreakable, they simply take a different break test in lieu of the standard one should they lose combat. Immune to Psyche, yes. But im pretty sure they can flee from a charge if they choose to. One in combat, they are locked until they win or poof. Aside from that....

I could be wrong though.

**cypher**

immune to psych = no fleeing from charges.

**Waaagh_Gonads**

I watched a 1200 point game the other day at my local GW store.

Skull taker
Epidemis
10 bloodletters
10 plaguebearers
10 daemonettes of slaanesh
5 or 6 hounds
1 blood crusher
At least that was what was on table when I turned up.

Absolutley thrashed a dwarf army with mix warmachines, shooting and combat through straight up combat..

**Mekboy**

One thing I noticed:
The Blue Scribes.
They get +1 Casting dice for each spell I cast.

I play really magic heavy VC.

Ouch.

**Janthkin**

Mekboy wrote:One thing I noticed:
The Blue Scribes.
They get +1 Casting dice for each spell I cast.

I play really magic heavy VC.

Ouch.

I love the concept behind the Blue Scribes, as it helps balance the metagame - if you take super-magic, you will allow your opponent to throw super-magic back at you. The less you take, the less you are affected by the Scribes (on down to Dwarves, who laugh at the almost-wasted points). And it's EXACTLY what the metagame needed, in the face of recastable 1-die VC spells.

**Mannahnin**

Except that Tzeentch already has a silly number of power dice.

**Janthkin**

Mannahnin wrote:Except that Tzeentch already has a silly number of power dice.

Well, yes. Note that I love the *concept*, rather than the execution of the concept.

(I wish non-Tzeentch heralds could be lvl 2 casters; it'd give you a way to make use of all those lovely dice, and give magic-inclined players something other than a Tzeentchian horde to field.)

**Therion**

Tzeentch flamer shooting attacks are not flaming nor are their magic missles so dragon armor won't help you.

The ranged attacks and melee attacks of Flamers are flaming. You're right about the magic missiles though. Why are you guys talking like being flaming is a bad thing? Flaming is absolutely fantastic. There's plenty of ways to take down Star Dragons.

The special characters like Fateweaver and Skulltaker are nice, but they're nowhere near crucial. Bloodthirsters and flying Tzeentch Heralds that pick spells from rulebook lores are awesome. Wolf Hunts moves for a Bloodthirster, Beast Cowers against Star Dragons, Bear's Anger for Tz Heralds and so on. The only real reason for having a Skulltaker is to join a sizeable Horror block with it and KB some Steam Tanks.