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dont think of tzench demons as an OTT magic phase.

Think of them as the magic and shooting component of the army (the shooting only comes from flamers otherwise)
2 25 man units of horrors and 2 hearlds are roughly equal in points to 2 enemy mages (including scroll caddies) and 4-5 warmachines.

The two heralds/mages will nullify each other and so you have 2 25 man units to pump out the shooting power of 4-5 warmachines. Its a prety even matchup if all is used to its full potential.

Therion wrote:There's plenty of ways to take down Star Dragons.

Yes. Like giving your Bloodthirster Str 10. Or a greater Nurgle deamon that makes the dragon roll for getting hurt for hurting or even being too close to the Nurgle. Lots of nasty combos.

cypher wrote:dont think of tzench demons as an OTT magic phase.

Think of them as the magic and shooting component of the army (the shooting only comes from flamers otherwise)
2 25 man units of horrors and 2 hearlds are roughly equal in points to 2 enemy mages (including scroll caddies) and 4-5 warmachines.

The two heralds/mages will nullify each other and so you have 2 25 man units to pump out the shooting power of 4-5 warmachines. Its a prety even matchup if all is used to its full potential.

Yeah, but you get people who will field 4-5 units of horrors at 15+ strong. So you got AT LEAST a magic missile for each of those. Then the heralds, which start at level 2, give them Master of Sorcery to give them ALL THE SPELLS of any of the 8 lores they want. Lore of Heaven perhaps? Couple of comets to get your opponent to think about moving forward. 3 Heralds. Then you have a potential level 4 GD of Tzneetch who knows all the lore of Tz which is pretty hurtful. Otherwise he can fly, and with WS, S and T of 6 each, isnt to bad in H2H. Add any spells or tricks with that.. Doubtful your opponent has any dispel dice left. At this time maybe toss in a bound spell from a BSB or something to put the hurt on.

THEN the wonderful shooting phase. If your opponent got first turn (it would actually work better to give it to him) and moved at least 2-4 inches, you can move your Flamers and still shoot. Tear something up fierce. Aim it right so you cause a panic domino effect. Possible win on turn 2.

600+ pts for the Greater Daemon. Another 150'ish per Herald (more for the BSB). So, over 1k pts in characters.

720 pts for 4 units of Horrors @ 15 strong. Add more points for command (and presumably banners). Now we're at 2k.

Now you want flamers too? That'll fill out 2250.

Of course, you have very little useful combat troops in there; you have 2 turns (if you're lucky) to stop enemy fast troops before they hit your Horrors and crumble them up.

I hope you don't miscast and end your magic phase early.....


The problem with the Tzeentch uber-magic list is that it is VERY all-or-nothing. Either your magic wins you the game quickly, or you start hemoraging dice something fierce in just a turn or two. Either way, boring for you and your opponent. But I don't think it's as bad as you think.

cypher wrote:immune to psych = no fleeing from charges.

Wow.. never knew this. That definitely makes my friend's Wood Elves less terrifying now that I don't have to worry about his dryads, war dancers and wild riders fleeing from my charge!

See I always thought it was only Unbreakable that didnt allow you to flee. Sadly my rulebook is at my friends house.

Couple of comets to get your opponent to think about moving forward

Remember, it is prety hard for a lvl 2 to get off a comet consistently.

Also, you are not talking about a couple horror units, you are talking about having your entire army be composed of magic casters.

That is prety much the same as a dwarven gunline in terms of cheesiness. And the dwarvs will crush you. Anvil to slow demons and kill flamers/chariots. Cannons to kill big guys. Organ gun to kill small guys. Stone throwers to kill horrors. And lots and lots of crossbow men and riflemen to kill off the rank and file. Dont forget 5+ ward save banner for all and extra magic resistance on the two combat blocks that will advance (they can take horros on easily).

Im aware of how cheese it is. I wouldnt ever field it, but there are people who are doing so, and have, and will.

I think a good mix of gods is very balanced as each one is kinda focused. I plan on making a Khorne, Tzneetch, Nurgle army. I wish Khorne still got dispel dice for its units, then I would be all about an all Khorne army (Im new to Chaos so the idea is still novel to me) but such as it is...

And someone posted about hating Furies. Havent played yet with them, but I would use them as a support charge in the flank. Even if they do minimal damage you still get the flank, and with 20" charge range... Pretty nice.

The problem with the Tzeentch uber-magic list is that it is VERY all-or-nothing.

It's not all or nothing if you combine a BT and for example a Skulltaker with an otherwise full Tz list with flying wizards, Horror blocks and Flamers. You'll have two pieces that can hack it in close combat with anyone out there, and yet you will be throwing tons of ranged and magical missiles at the enemy each turn. You don't even have to use the lore of Tzeentch if you don't want to, as Tz Heralds can use any rulebook lore if they want, namely the lore of Beasts.

My 2000p army for tournaments that don't allow named characters has a BT, but also 13 power dice, 8 dispel dice, a scroll and -2 to enemy casting. I also have the ubiquitous 12 Flamers.

oops double post. deleted.

@Therion: And that's a very nice build...let me guess that your Special slots are filled with khornate dogs? or do you rely upon furies?

nikeforever22 wrote:@Therion: And that's a very nice build...let me guess that your Special slots are filled with khornate dogs? or do you rely upon furies?

I use a unit of 6 dogs in 2250p. I always use two units of Furies the minimum, and one or two units more than that in 2.25K.

The ranged attacks are not flaming, it says they have flaming attacks but the specific entry for the flamer shooting attack does not thus they are not flaming. I'm saying that since they aren't flaming DP's are not immune to their shots.

I think this D6 Shooting attack issue, needs to be covered in a FAQ/Errata.

Should be out in time for 8th Ed.

PistolWraithCaine wrote:The ranged attacks are not flaming, it says they have flaming attacks but the specific entry for the flamer shooting attack does not thus they are not flaming. I'm saying that since they aren't flaming DP's are not immune to their shots.

Read again. They have flaming attacks. Shooting attacks are attacks just as well as melee attacks are. Basically in theory even all spells cast by Tzeentch Heralds should be considered flaming, but that's under FAQ scrutiny soon. Take a look at your DoC book and see what it says about the daemonic attacks overall. Additionally I refer you to page 95 of the Warhammer rulebook and see what it says about Flaming Attacks. It even mentions Flamers of Tzeentch specifically if you're curious. By the way, on no other forum except here did anyone find this questionable. It's fairly obvious that all attacks made by Tzeentch models (with the possible exception of spells) are flaming. DPs are indeed immune to their shots. That's why pure Tz lists can make use of Master of Sorcery, and/or combine their lists with units from other gods.

As many have noted, there aren't many overall strategies which can be applied, due to the amount of armies out there and the variability of the demons. However, two things seem to be coming up over and over:

1) Shooting. Sure, flamers are nice, and tzeentch missiles can hurt, but over all, core demons are pretty fragile. War machines and solid shooting seem to be the order of the day.

2) Hordes. Killing blow, high strength, d6 shots lots of power dice etc. seem to be the order of the day when it comes to demons. As cypher pointed out, sure you may have level 4 wizards from your horror units, but those are hugely expensive, and over whelming them with model count negates their strength, which is magical artillery. The same can be said for bloodletters, who don't have the attacks to win by wound generated CR alone. The rare choices (read: flamers) are the real problem from the list, as they are quick and hit hard both in shooting and CC; the best I can see, is cheap knight units tying the units up so that they can't hurt quite as bad (solid in CC, but not as nasty as when they shoot stuff).

Feel free to tear that up and make amendments, as this is just a summary of what has been said so far.

cheers,
ED

still doesnt solve the problem of those a@#holes that field a bloodthirster in a tzeentch army! I play VC i have no WAR MACHINES OR SHOOTING. GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! O great warhammer gods help me!

Bah
You have the thirsters nightmare
A refillable ranked unit that will never run.

isn't it better to have LOC instead of Bloodthirster for that magic army? (or Kairos if the tournament allowed special chars)

Immune to psychology does mean no panic, but units with the rule still take break tests as normal. brb pg 53.

Therion wrote:

The problem with the Tzeentch uber-magic list is that it is VERY all-or-nothing.

It's not all or nothing if you combine a BT and for example a Skulltaker with an otherwise full Tz list with flying wizards, Horror blocks and Flamers. You'll have two pieces that can hack it in close combat with anyone out there, and yet you will be throwing tons of ranged and magical missiles at the enemy each turn. You don't even have to use the lore of Tzeentch if you don't want to, as Tz Heralds can use any rulebook lore if they want, namely the lore of Beasts.

My 2000p army for tournaments that don't allow named characters has a BT, but also 13 power dice, 8 dispel dice, a scroll and -2 to enemy casting. I also have the ubiquitous 12 Flamers.

How many horror units do you have? Isn't it kinda boring to just throw magic around and not much hth? i doubt you are attacking with your horrors?

Usually it is prety booring. But it wins games which is what the people with 80+ horrors will be caring about.

I've recently played a couple of games against the new Daemons - a straight Nurgle list that was pretty filthy (hehehe)

First time he had two largish blocks of plaguebearers (15-20) and a smaller one with a herald in each - all with the soul hunger, cloud of flies and something else I can't remember, a DP that I don't remember what he had, two units of nurglings, 3 beast of nurgle

Second time he had 3 units of plaguies 2 @ about 20, one of 30 - 3 heralds with soul hunger, hatred and cause a wound on 6 to those in base to base, 3 units of nurglings and Epididimus

Both times I had my Knights and Stank - first game was a massacre for him, ward save and regenerate is just sick - I'd do 4-5 wounds with the knights and he'd save/grow back 3-4 per turn, Stank worked fine but flies made it impossible to beat his blocks.

Second game I got a draw but still couldn't beat his blocks - ward / regen again and the ability that acts like an oath stone but the can still move makes for a very difficult and frustrating game

Looking at the magic for the Daemons, spell 1 in each list is just stupidly good (especially the slaneeshie one hehehe) real problem I see is that they are vastly overpowered for for a slot one spell and two of them have remains in play effects but aren't remains in play making them impossible to get rid of

I'd hate to see a Nurgle/Tzeentch combo, great magic and troops that just won't go away - ever

I've looked for ways to be competitive with them but they seem few and far between, the power and resilience of the Daemons makes me even more upset and disgusted with the mortal and beasts chaos changes

On a tangent does the rising power of daemons make sense fluff wise? They are far more powerful and effective now then they were during the Storm of Chaos - when there were thousands of them present and the power of chaos waxed powerful. Guess I'm just frustrated and grasping at straws

PapaSmurf

blackgaurd wrote:still doesnt solve the problem of those a@#holes that field a bloodthirster in a tzeentch army! I play VC i have no WAR MACHINES OR SHOOTING. GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! O great warhammer gods help me!

Um, weren't the new daemons written to mix and match? It's not
like you expect Wood Elves to only pick one Special Unit theme or
for Dwarfs to field only infantry or mostly War Machines. The Daemon
choices weren't built to be fielded as single concept armies, from what
I can tell.

short version: Your rage amuses me.

PapaSmurf wrote:On a tangent does the rising power of daemons make sense fluff wise? They are far more powerful and effective now then they were during the Storm of Chaos - when there were thousands of them present and the power of chaos waxed powerful. Guess I'm just frustrated and grasping at straws

PapaSmurf

Just apply Highlander to the formula. The fewer there are, the more
powerful they become.

Furies should only be used to get behind and then congalined behind enemy units so when they break you 'crossfire them' and they are wiped out, or to capture quadrants.

They are so suckful I doubt they could be relied on to take out war machine crews.

2 units of 6 seems to be a popular choice at 2250 points and above here in Oz.

Oh man the demons have so many weaknesses. Different from the undead but very similar. Being able to channel demons is key I think, they tend to run right at you and that's pretty easy to exploit.

I do like the KB on steam tanks, unsure if it's legal though. Don't really wanna argue that point, since my steam tanks are long gone. lol

Yeah blue scribes are amusing when you run high strength magic VC armies. I swear casting 12-15 spells per turn would be horrible with the VC.

Killing them isn't that difficult though, so it's not a huge deal.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Furies should only be used to get behind and then congalined behind enemy units so when they break you 'crossfire them' and they are wiped out, or to capture quadrants.

They are so suckful I doubt they could be relied on to take out war machine crews.

2 units of 6 seems to be a popular choice at 2250 points and above here in Oz.

Haven't you noticed the nerf on non-character flying units?

It's been a trend for several books now.

malfred wrote:
Um, weren't the new daemons written to mix and match?

Yes they were made to mix and match, but that still doesnt explain (at least fluff wise) why a greater daemon of Khorne would get along and work with an entire army of Tzeentch now does it?

blackgaurd wrote:

malfred wrote:
Um, weren't the new daemons written to mix and match?

Yes they were made to mix and match, but that still doesnt explain (at least fluff wise) why a greater daemon of Khorne would get along and work with an entire army of Tzeentch now does it?

Read the new book. They've provided new fluff - it's a time of Chaos ascendant, where the powers have set aside their differences in favor of beating up on mortals.

Please don't penalize your opponents for not adhering to out-dated backstory, especially not when it is almost impossible to make a competitive single-power list. Each god has 1 core choice, 1 special choice, and 1 rare choice; if you try to force a one god approach, it gets boring pretty quick.