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With my economic stimulus money coming in, and months away from 40k's 5th edition, I've decided to start playing WFB. Since I play Orks in 40k, I'm pretty weary of painting large groups of models at a time. So I was thinking of starting an all knight Bretonnian army since all the models could be painted differently and there would be relatively few of them- making it affordable as well. Some of the Bretonnian paint styles also would be a good opportunity to expand my painting abilities.

Unfortunately I've recently read that the all knight Bretonnian armies are pure cheese. Stinky cheese too.

Is this true? How beardy is is to play an all knight force, and is poor taste to do so in a friendly game environment?

They errantry knight list is a bit ridiculous but good players don't lose to it often. If you're just wanting a casual gaming list I could see it being called beardy though :p. I wouldn't play Bretonnians anyway if I were you. They aren't fun to play with, they are very mindless and take away the pleasure (at least the pleasure I have) of using tactics and maneuver to beat your opponent. (All you do is 1st turn pray for a ward save, 2nd turn charge anything you can, hope you broke what you charged cause if you didn't gg). Since you're new to the game I would recommend lizardmen or VC because they're resilient armies that don't require a master player at the helm to win (like TK) but you'll still have fun playing them. Of course, some people are drawn to brets for the models and theme and if you like that then forget what I say and go have fun . Hope I helped.

Fewer models dont mean less $$. I play Orcs in Fantasy and 16 boyz is about 35bucks. 5 Boar Boys = $50.

If you really like the Knights thing, then go with Brits, but just be weary of yourself and how you compose a list. Perhaps buy the Army Book and read up on it just to see if you like it. But if you are only waiting for the next edition of 40K, do you really wanna make a large commitment to a game you are gonna drop in a few months? Also, few models = Warmachine. I dont play it, but it looks cool.

Ogre Kingdoms are few models, and very cool. Dwarfs are cool as well, and have lots of artillery. Empire has Knights AND artillery. But more models.

Play what you passion is. Hell, buy some magnets and put your boyz on square bases and play Orcs. Proxy is a lot of fun when you dont have the cash and/or time to shell out for a whole new army. And while Orcs have a lot of models, they are fairly easy to paint. And I have one word that sold me on play Orcs- FANATICS.

Hell, if you like Brets and are really concerned about being beardy you could always field...*gasp*...MEN AT ARMS!!!!

Seriously, you'd probably get kudos for at least trying to use them. It would be a good change of pace for most fantasy players, and I actually think the models are a blast to paint.

Men at Arms are actually an excellent unit. They just suffer from the same syndrome as other good units like Saurus- other things in the army (knights) are really, really good, and faster, so the Men at Arms tend to get left behind unless you know what you’re doing.

Brets are not pure stinky cheese. They are a strong army, especially on a table with light terrain, and are fairly straightforward and easy to play. They’re actually not hard to beat using an army with several units of ranked infantry (particularly when complemented with shooting), by using “flee & flank” tactics. But USING flee and flank tactics, and painting up several units of infantry, takes time, effort, and a good working understanding of the rules. These things are often in short supply among new players, which leads them to think Brets are pure, stinky cheese.


Footnote: The only variant of Brets that is really and genuinely stinky is the RAF aka Royal Air Force, in which you take a lord on a Pegasus to get access to multiple units of Pegasus Knights. One unit of Pegs is a strong and flexible addition to an army. Several units = pretty broken and lame, unless you're playing against opponents who enjoy that sort of thing and only use maximum cheese themselves.

The problem with men at arms is that they are ranks of infantry usually all painted with the same scheme- which I am trying to avoid. I like the diversity of paint schemes the knights offer.

Orges sound interesting. I'll have to look into what the models look like/gameplay.

I would not recommend ogres for a beginning army. They are easy to collect with so few models, but their tactics are hard for beginners.

You dont have to paint Men at arms all the same colour just paint a couple models the same as one model and repeat. It could be represented as the knights personal guard

I have lost 1 game out of about 10 at tourneys in the last 3 years against brets, with my VCs and Lizardmen.

They are a great army when they get the charge off but rely on combo charging on enemy units and with clever deployment of terrain they can be bottlenecked and forced to overrun into terrain essentially removing them rom the rest of the game.

They suffer from low Ld if outside the general's 12 inch range.

I haven't played them since 5th ed as they became a matter of 'deploy, pray, move, charge, game over'. Now however I think the game starts after the charge as a good opponent will have set up for an inevitable breakthrough and then goes about dismantling the army.

As my wife want's me to do a 'good' army next instead of 'evil' Brets would be the option after the HEs I'm doing...

Mannahnin wrote:Men at Arms are actually an excellent unit. They just suffer from the same syndrome as other good units like Saurus- other things in the army (knights) are really, really good, and faster, so the Men at Arms tend to get left behind unless you know what you’re doing.

The other use of M@As is to keep them in the back to protect your rear from Dwarf miners and the like.

Brets are not pure stinky cheese. They are a strong army, especially on a table with light terrain, and are fairly straightforward and easy to play. They’re actually not hard to beat using an army with several units of ranked infantry (particularly when complemented with shooting), by using “flee & flank” tactics. But USING flee and flank tactics, and painting up several units of infantry, takes time, effort, and a good working understanding of the rules. These things are often in short supply among new players, which leads them to think Brets are pure, stinky cheese.

Quoted for extreme truthiness.

A quality opponent can adjust and make any game against them a challenge. I had a great series of games against a Dwarf player, We kept adjusting our strategies to make each game a battle of wits. Some of the best games I ever played in.

Unfortunately there are some who prefer to blame the Bretonnains for their own short comings as a general.

Footnote: The only variant of Brets that is really and genuinely stinky is the RAF aka Royal Air Force, in which you take a lord on a Pegasus to get access to multiple units of Pegasus Knights. One unit of Pegs is a strong and flexible addition to an army. Several units = pretty broken and lame, unless you're playing against opponents who enjoy that sort of thing and only use maximum cheese themselves.

I agree with this, An RAF was the first list I built with the 6th ed book. I loved the idea of using a lot of Pegs, the army was murderous. It is quite fun to play, but it is not a list to use in a pick up game or against gamers with weak constitutions.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I have lost 1 game out of about 10 at tourneys in the last 3 years against brets, with my VCs and Lizardmen.

As my wife want's me to do a 'good' army next instead of 'evil' Brets would be the option after the HEs I'm doing...

Lizardmen are good.... ish..... Have you given her the schpleel about how there arent any REALLY GOOD armies out there?

Im sure this idea is enough for its own thread (and may have been done before my recent join here), but think about it.. High Elves... Good, but only think about themselves really. Empire, good, but heavily prone to corruption and will gladly leave a city unguarded so a Elector Count can make off and survive like the coward he is... Brits, good, but rely upon a caste system, so unless you are a Knight, you are expendable. Wood Elves, good ish, yet again. The wont invade your Kingdom, but step a foot inside the forest, and you have 7 arrows in you before you hit the ground. Dwarfs... Mostly good, but cross them and they hold it against you.... Oh I dunno.. FOREVER.

One reason I kinda like Orcs. Think about it. They arent good, sure. But they arent really evil either. They fight because they love to fight, they dont call the Waaagh to take over a kingdom, they burn the kingdom to the ground which is really only an unfortunate side effect of their love to fight. Should orcs ever take over the world the would quickly grow bored. They would pack up and leave, with a note telling the squishies to call them in 20 years when they have an army again.

Though if Orcs ever discovered Nerf sword and the like, a possible golden age of peace could ensue... Yeah right!

Just getting back in to the Game, but Brets are a longtime favorite of mine, the Guy I'm most likely to be playing against is also a Bret fan, but he's coming over from LotR, I've showed him how bad the Massed Cav charge can be against Black Powder Weapons (Handguns & Volley Guns) or against X-Bows and Bolt Throwers without a PBI Screen to hide behind wile Praying or Archer Bow Cover Fire to whittle down large Blocks of Infantry (50-100 Skaven, High Elf Spearmen or Tealian Pikemen anyone, how about 30-40 Pheionex Guard?) before the Knights Hit it on their 2nd Charge, or to tie up the Light Cav trying to Flank you.

Their are lots of holes in the Brets TO&E to exploit, so they aren't as Munchtastic as folks make out (at least from the dozen or so Games I've played of 7th ed).

If You want to have fun painting lots of Different Livery go with the KoB, You'll end up painting 30-40 or so guys in quick and simple almost Uniforms in between groups of Knights, hell for Variety each of the Three Units of Infantry (about average split two units of 10 Archers and one 20ish strong of Men at Arms) could be from separate Households meaning Different Livery for each unit.

Ive got a friend of my who has recently started playing brets and he is much better with them then his orcs and goblins. He fields mostly knights and archers with a 20 block of men at arms and 3 pegasus knights which are nasty. The list is well balanced and not too cheesy. so if its brets you want go for it im a firm beleaver in saying forget "cheese" if its in your army book and you can do it then go for it.

Bleh, I believe that to an extent. As most folks will point out, there is NORMALLY some glaring weakness that certain armies can exploit if you let your army curdle into cheesedom. Against an all knight force, imagine a Lizardmen force with an Oldblood with the +1 strength/ignore armor saves sword leading 2-3 20 man units of Saurus Warriors and 3-4 units of Kroxigor. The infantry soak up the charge, the Kroxigor counter charge and make you take of half a dozen knights at a time

I persenly planing on making a bretonia force but whit alloot of pesents

quietus86 wrote:I persenly planing on making a bretonia force but whit alloot of pesents

U know i have yet to see one of these. I love the minis for the peasants but you have to have at least one unit of knights correct??

corret and I wil be taking grail knights to.
but like in olden time's kngihts wear elite not the normalaty.
I only need 2 hero's ( and a knight unit and i can start)
I have 2 bow men pessant boxes and one whit speers.
it won't be a winning army for a bretonia but I think it will have flavor .
i make army's how I like em planiny on entering contest whit flavor army's ( I em juist of owais losing )

quietus86 wrote:corret and I wil be taking grail knights to.
but like in olden time's kngihts wear elite not the normalaty.
I only need 2 hero's ( and a knight unit and i can start)
I have 2 bow men pessant boxes and one whit speers.
it won't be a winning army for a bretonia but I think it will have flavor .
i make army's how I like em planiny on entering contest whit flavor army's ( I em juist of owais losing )

Holy God what was that!?

Yeah.. you can definitely tell English is not his first language. I do know one thing: There are few units with as much suck piled on them as men at arms.. Although, bowmen are fairly effective, especially with the braziers upgrade.

Now to include if you make the bowmen skirmishers remember they do have long bows. anyways i think no bret army should be complete without pegasus knights just because they are one of the toughest flying units in the game IMO.

There are few units with as much suck piled on them as men at arms..

What are you on about take a large block with a damsel carrying the prayer icon of Quenelles and you have a unit that almost always outnumbers, has magic resistance and if it does flee they wont get points for tha standard...

M@A are excellent. Pure cheap static CR, and don't give up points if they lose the banner. What's not to like?

I wil have 1 unit knights 1 unit graile knight ( 5 men )
knight hero and a lady hero en de rest pike en bow

Aristotle wrote:
What are you on about take a large block with a damsel carrying the prayer icon of Quenelles and you have a unit that almost always outnumbers, has magic resistance and if it does flee they wont get points for tha standard...

Meh, my only experience against them has involved flanking charges with my Terradons.. There's nothing like 10 attacks with 3+ to-hit and 3+ to-wound + flanking bonus +negating ranks to see them off... Used your way though, they do actually sound fairly useful, if for nothing else than a tarpit for some lance formation counter charge love..

Teradons don't break ranks. They are skimishers (all units of flyers are)
Teradons in the flank should lose by 1 every time.

I thought units with units strength 5 or higher broke ranks.. I maybe mistaken. I know skirmishers don't gain rank bonuses themselves though...

Skirmishers don't break ranks either. Yep, it's pretty easy for them to beat M@A if you cheat.


(Just teasing- but seriously, you should spend a little more time with the rulebook).

Yup thats when my dyrads charge a unit i try to get as many units into base to base for more attacks and if the dice gods are willing more wounds!! Other wise they lose in CR. Has anyone had any luck with a mostly peasant army??

cypher wrote:Teradons don't break ranks. They are skimishers (all units of flyers are)
Teradons in the flank should lose by 1 every time.

Hell, as long as they can glom onto the general's leadership bubble, it's still enough to make sure they remain in combat and cause enough casualties to TYPICALLY eliminate any chances of attacks back.

Mannahnin wrote:Skirmishers don't break ranks either. Yep, it's pretty easy for them to beat M@A if you cheat.


(Just teasing- but seriously, you should spend a little more time with the rulebook).

Eh.. sadly, I'm one of the better versed players in my area. The main issues are that A) outside of my terradons and skinks, I don't use skirmishers often and on top of that I mostly play MMU/shooty Skaven over my Lizzies and B) my rule book seemingly grew legs and ran away

Let me check my bag scott a boo boo might have happened last time we gamed