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I have been a Bretonnian player for over a year now. I see a lot of people calling them cheese and they are really predictable. (Yes I see a lot of people with very few losses to the Brets) How good are the Generals you go against? I have played 30+ games and I have lost 2 battlles with them. The two loses happened: first time I ever played them and once to Dark Elves due to my own error and didn't follow through with my plan. The Bretonnians are probably one of the most mobile army and the Lance formation is awesome. Probably the MVP in most of my battles go to the Peasant Men at Arms, I rarley lose them. They are there to support the knights or act as a tarpit. I am not a normal general, I don't always go running forward on a suicide misson. I usually wait a turn or two before I move to see where I can get charge lanes, and counter/multiple charges. I am also notorious for hitting ward saves. When I field an army I usally have several small units of knights, paired in groups of 2 or 3. Depending on points I use Questing Knights and Grail Knights. But the main unit is the group of 3 Pegasus Knights and a Paladin on a Pegasus nearby. I also use 16 bowmen and a trebuchet, it doesn't hit much but it is nice for a long range threat. I have 20 Men at arms and once again it depends on the points for 2 Damsels and 2 Paladins (or 1 Paladin and Lord). Well back on topic I think they are a great army if used right. It is nice to see people that have some luck against them and I would like to play some people of your styles and experience. Just my 2 cents.

Bretonnian knight armies are harsh and beardy, however there is room for peasants. Peasants are very good troops, just overshadowed by the knights. Bowmen are some of the best shooting in the game because of their low cost.

While the classic attitude to Bretonnians is knights-and-more-knights it is actually a bad way to play. Against most opponents your combination of rank bonus, 2+ save, ward save and S5 charge is just annoying, unfair and impossible to win against. One of the addages round here is: 'if you cannot win at Warhammer, play Beardtonnians, then you cannot lose.'
However in tournaments Bretonnian armies often lose against opponents that can outfight and outmanoeuver them. While this refers to a subset of equally beardy lists, chief of which was the now defunct High Elf cavalry list, some Wood Elf builds and summonhorde. The truth is against those armies designed to pick apart knight-only Brets victory comes because the lowly bowmen and men at arms are left behind. The bowmen in particular. If facing HE cavalry/chariot/eagle army - which is possible after two minimum core units are chosen, and can now face two dragons; your chances of victory are much better if you have some humble bowmen along to shoot the chariots and eagles whizzing around your flanks.

In regular play mounted yeomen are also good, not quite as manoeuverable as Pegasus Knights but getting there, much cheaper and a good way to block march moves.

The Reliquae will fight undead blocks and dwarf elite to a standstill if they are big enough.

Men At Arms make an excellent tarpit in large blocks, are well equipped, dirt cheap and very stable if you have a knight nearby. They can act as sacrifice troops in small units to deal with fanatics and such. They have no ladies blessing to lose, won't panic nearby knights and cost less than as minimum Knight Errant unit. Better to charge ten Men At Arms (or forward deployed bowmen) into Night Goblins than your precious knights, just keep them clear of other peasants while doing so.

Be a better Betonnian player and include some rif raff in your army, you will have a far better experience and you can still win, simply because even if all the above units taken in abundance it will only amount to a small portion of your army. There will be plenty of room left for Knights Errant, Knights of the Realm, and Pegasus knights, you won't be lacking anything.

Peasants:
- Don't take them if you want a cheesy army that can beat anyone who hasn't got another beardy list, in an unfair and unfun battle.
- Do take them if you want to give regular opponents a fair game and you want to secure a win in the metagame.

Well we had a 3000 point rtt this weekend and there was a bret havy cav army. Now i played wood elfs and my buddie played high elfs. we had a great list put together but my flank buckled under the sheer weight of all that cav, luckily my to great eagles one with a noble were able to get behind their lines and kill some mages and just cause general trouble. we were able to get a draw out the match but we had climb back up hill after i botched some very key rolls. I wouldnt call it cheesy because the guy who plays brets here is pretty good and always goes cav heavy and i normally beat him easily with my orcs and goblins while i sometimes struggle with my wood elfs. cant wait to get my dark elfs going and try to break some of that on him.

From what I have seen the Bret's seem to be a decent army that can be fielded either pesant heavy or pesant light. It all depends on your skill as a tactician as to wheather they do well or not. Having the fast movment will get you into combat earlier but then you have to make sure you kill a few.

9 Knights is 18 Unit Strength. A 20 thing unit should lose a few to a knights charge. Which means that starting out the Knights are down by two CR.

1 For being outnumbered but on charge they should take care of that issue and actually reverse that problem. The other 1 for 3 ranks versus 2 in the knight unit. Once again the Charge should offset that.

It is after that the Bret's start to have a problem as their Charge bonus is no longer applicable.

But most players I have encountered use the Banner that denies their opponent rank bonuses. And that can make a 3 point swing in CR.

Just make sure you charge small units with the Peg Knights.

I have actually used a unit a 20 dwarf warriors to chased down a unit of Peg Knights.

Good Luck.

i find brets very easy to beat, in a game of last stand i had 500 points of dwarfs, the bret player had 1000 points, after 4 turns i'd got my selve a masscre, his knights just couldn't break through my warriors, with his knights stck i could focus my shooting else where and managed to get his peasants to panic and run. then just flank charged the knights with my crossbowman and it was all over

Lord Bingo wrote:i find brets very easy to beat, in a game of last stand i had 500 points of dwarfs, the bret player had 1000 points, after 4 turns i'd got my selve a masscre, his knights just couldn't break through my warriors, with his knights stck i could focus my shooting else where and managed to get his peasants to panic and run. then just flank charged the knights with my crossbowman and it was all over

That is a little embarassing!!! Good job on your victory.

i think there one army that needs updating

Lord Bingo wrote:i think there one army that needs updating

I am totally with you on that.

its a bit like the tomb kings and wood elfs, they could do with a new book

What? Wood elves just got a new book!

Yeah, brets could use an update, but they are certainly more interesting now than the older version. Peg knights are a bit OTT, though. TK could definitely use some sprucing up.

they did?

Wood elfs are fine, we dont need a new book yet...but if the new DE and HE books are a taste of things to come for my woodies sign me up!!

Wood elves were the first army to get a new race rule. The trouble is that Gw still overvalues BS4 shooting in points costs.

I know this is off topic but I just want to make a comparsion .
Glade guard 12 points/model, HW GG longbow
DE Repeater crossbowmen 11 points/model, HW, repeater crossbow, light armour, shield.

their stat lines are identical except their special rules. On that note the DE crossbowmen can actually have combat res and a 4+ save in cc. GG get run over by anything and everything that gets close to them.

We can compare and still be on topic.

Elf vs elf. Dark elf repeater crossbowmen are the best. They are cheaper and shoot twice. Twice the firepower is easily worth +1 to hit and extra range. Dark elf crossbowmen are alsdo effectively ranked troops, for 11pts you have passably good line infantry.

However when you want good shooting you need cheap shooting. Gobbos are ok but lack range which kills them, Bret bowmen are amongst the best missile infantry in the game, though behind skinks. Like skinks they have a decent weapon and a poor statline.

Just as you pay for WS and I that you dont use for elves, you simlarly dont pay for them by not having them for peasant bowmen. This makes them a steal at 6pts because of their great range. Bowmen make their points back very easily

I always field a unit of Peasant Bowmen, for the price they are worth it. I like the defensive stakes too, just because they look cool.

Ive played a few games vs Orks and Dwarfs and from my experience you either break them on the charge and win the match or you get locked in CC and lose.

The longest match ive played as Bretonnia lasted for 4 turns.

Nieto- Dark Elves seem to be the first elf shooting infantry for a reasonable cost. Look at HE archers. Possibly even more overpriced than WE due to being even worse at shooting and less mobile.

fabbes wrote:Ive played a few games vs Orks and Dwarfs and from my experience you either break them on the charge and win the match or you get locked in CC and lose.

Here I disagree in general. What you say is true against dwarves as they have a tendency to hold regardless of losses then hit back with powerful characters. However a squadron of 9 or 12 knights is not only a solid punch but also a solid holding unit. Let us take a squadron of nine, which is how I run mine. You have US18, ok so you lose out there agianst standard infantry, you also lack the full rank bonus but are only 2CR behind infantry without calculating the charge. Normally a solid charge will wipe the fourth rank CR and likely allow you to outnumber too. I generally find that nine knights can then standoff against heavy infantry. As only decent infantry can hold against knights to begin with blocks of nine can match the enemy elite stuff unit to uint.

The first mistake Bret players make is to underestimate the value of peasants in their army.

The second mistake is to run knights exclusively in squadrons of six.

Together they make Brets an all or nothing army. yes squadrons iof six are very good, cheap hard hitting and efficient, but you need to include some larger blocks in case of a freak item, unit ability or break test has the enemy standing after the charge.

Ur not kiding about HE archers way over priced and no where nearly as good as their WE or DE brethern. Peasant bowmen can be quite annoying though cheap and large in numbers.

Orlanth wrote:

fabbes wrote:Ive played a few games vs Orks and Dwarfs and from my experience you either break them on the charge and win the match or you get locked in CC and lose.

Here I disagree in general. What you say is true against dwarves as they have a tendency to hold regardless of losses then hit back with powerful characters. However a squadron of 9 or 12 knights is not only a solid punch but also a solid holding unit. Let us take a squadron of nine, which is how I run mine. You have US18, ok so you lose out there agianst standard infantry, you also lack the full rank bonus but are only 2CR behind infantry without calculating the charge. Normally a solid charge will wipe the fourth rank CR and likely allow you to outnumber too. I generally find that nine knights can then standoff against heavy infantry. As only decent infantry can hold against knights to begin with blocks of nine can match the enemy elite stuff unit to uint.

The first mistake Bret players make is to underestimate the value of peasants in their army.

The second mistake is to run knights exclusively in squadrons of six.

Together they make Brets an all or nothing army. yes squadrons iof six are very good, cheap hard hitting and efficient, but you need to include some larger blocks in case of a freak item, unit ability or break test has the enemy standing after the charge.

Nicely put. With Bretonnia it is all about the finesse on when and where to hit units with the charge. My biggest thing when I run my army is SUPPORT, SUPPORT, SUPPORT!!! Multiple charges on one unit, counter charges, and all that good stuff.

I am a Bret player. Have been for years and years... I started WHFB just before Kingdom of Heaven came out. It wasn't my inspiration- I wanted humans but not guns- but it was enough to get all my friends interested in what my stuff would look like painted.

An all knight list is usually the "cheese" people refer to with Bretonians, however I'll tell you from experience all knight lists are awful.

Pegaus knights are in a no-man's land. They're too strong for their normal tasks of warmachine/mage hunting, but not quite strong enough (in my opinion) to take on ranked up units.

Men At Arms are goblins without the toys.

The Grail Reliquae is huge. Every Bretonian Army shouldn't leave the castle without one. Hatred, Stubborn, Ld 8, US6 + 1 per peasant, Light Armor, Shield, Hand weapon (for the CC armor save bonus) plus the Blessing's ward save. Its just awesome.

My usual list is

A duellist lord, BSB with 3 static CR, mounted damsel with n (on a 2+) extra dispel die, either another paladin or another damsel

9 Knights Errant
9 Knights of the Realm
20 Skrimishing Bowmen

A unit strength 25 Grail Reliquae
5 Mounted Yeomen
3 Pegasus Knights

6ish Grail Knights.

At 2250, I'd probably take a 25 block of Men At Arms, and the other damsel/paladin.

the person who i play usually have :
8 grails w/damsel
lord on hippo
8 kotr w/damsel
2 x9 kotr
5 mounted yewman
3 pegasus knights.

put 2 units of knights on each side, move them close first turn and double charge next..... it is pretty cheesy army imo.

Oh yeah one game he knew what i was gonna play and made his lord immune to fire and killing blow LG target against my BT... pretty cheesy..