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What effect does 5th edition have on the IG list?

Right now, im looking at units in IG that CANNOT hang in Close Combat, people are also saying that CC is bloodier and faster. Basically, if you charge a guard unit in 5th it should be gone.

No consolidation into a fresh unit makes IG VERY happy. Combine that with wide open firing lanes with lines of sight wide open, Leman russes (or sentinals, Mondo?) with 4+ cover saves, and screening for the HQ's? It seems to me that the only hit IG are taking is the new "running" rule brings assault units in to attack faster....but since IG are weak in HtH, and there's no consolidation into HtH, doesnt that simply mean that they're bringing themselves into rapid fire range quicker? For the cost of a 60-80 pt squad, nasty (and expensive?) HtH troopers are rewarded with 100's of flashlights shined in their faces at optimum range.

Furthermore, if you look at a 6pt ork statline you wonder what the next codex will bring...cheaper guardsmen????

Golden Age for Imperial Guard, anyone? ....and Dark Millenium is saying that the age of man is coming to an end...I say BS.

I think it may be time to finally break down and start another guard army after a 11 year hiatus.

All good points Deadshane, I'll add that with a Battle Sister Cannoness w/ Book of St. Lucius, the option for a single surviving Guardsman to not break in Close Combat is there if the situation calls for it.

Also, since units are scoring to the last man, Iron Discipline goes a long way to rallying broken single man units that your opponent must now devote resources to destroying.

Deadshane1 wrote:What effect does 5th edition have on the IG list?

Right now, im looking at units in IG that CANNOT hang in Close Combat, people are also saying that CC is bloodier and faster. Basically, if you charge a guard unit in 5th it should be gone.

No consolidation into a fresh unit makes IG VERY happy. Combine that with wide open firing lanes with lines of sight wide open, Leman russes (or sentinals, Mondo?) with 4+ cover saves, and screening for the HQ's? It seems to me that the only hit IG are taking is the new "running" rule brings assault units in to attack faster....but since IG are weak in HtH, and there's no consolidation into HtH, doesnt that simply mean that they're bringing themselves into rapid fire range quicker? For the cost of a 60-80 pt squad, nasty (and expensive?) HtH troopers are rewarded with 100's of flashlights shined in their faces at optimum range.

Furthermore, if you look at a 6pt ork statline you wonder what the next codex will bring...cheaper guardsmen????

Golden Age for Imperial Guard, anyone? ....and Dark Millenium is saying that the age of man is coming to an end...I say BS.

I think it may be time to finally break down and start another guard army after a 11 year hiatus.

I do love my sentinels, don't I?

Yep, things aren't looking as bleak for IG as initial rumors seemed to say. There is a second hit, IMO. The defensive weapons ST 4 removes the utility of Chimeras and Leman Russ as mobile Fire Support squads. The vehicle cover save might make them viable as bunkers, but that's one I'm gonna have to play with a bit. The no consolidation is big. Means one or two units can't just roll up the entire firing line. Any IG unit that gets assaulted is likely going to lose big due to counterassault, extended kill zones, etc. So likely will be taking a Morale test with a large negative modifier.

Until we get a new IG codex, I'm seeing certain doctrines being on the top 5 list.

Cameleoline, +1 to cover saves
Chem Inhalers, no negative modifiers
Iron Discipline, rally below 50%
Drop Troops, plasma/melta deep striking spam
Close Order Drill, gonna be a lot easier to get into btb when charged due the countercharge, +1 Initiative

Others I'm thinking about:
Ratling Snipers, possible rending removes the sniper rifles biggest weakness, no AP
Veterans, multiple Hardened Vet squads, goes well with drop troop spam
Mechanized, altho I'm not sure about this one with the defensive weapon change. Not sure if they'll still be viable with the chimeras and Russes as bunkers

Probably others that might come in handy but waiting to see how the IG 5th ed FAQ changes things.

Also, regarding allies.....
What effect will the Witch Hunter Liber Heresius or the Daemon Hunter Tarot have now with the new deployment rules?
Callidus is somewhat screwed thanks to the countercharge bit. So is she worth taking for the Word In Your Ear alone, as she's likely going to die when she assaults anything with any sort of numbers. Currently placement/casualty removal when she appears can limit the number of attacks the charged unit can throw back at her. In 5th, between counterassault and removing deaders from the back, she's gonna take a lot of hits. And I've always said the best way to kill her is to swarm her.

don_mondo wrote:
Chem Inhalers, no negative modifiers

Noo. You want your guys to break and flee the first turn they get hit, not stick around blocking huge firelanes and potentially breaking on your own turn.

Moz wrote:

don_mondo wrote:
Chem Inhalers, no negative modifiers

Noo. You want your guys to break and flee the first turn they get hit, not stick around blocking huge firelanes and potentially breaking on your own turn.

As a general rule, I agree with you. But sometimes you just want to tarpit that one unit, say a wraithlord that's only gonna kill one or two guys a turn.

Also, if I'm understanding the new LOS rules, that combat doesn't bock the firelane any more, just grants a cover save.

Chem-inhalers are still worthless. Buy a Cannoness with the Book of Unmodified Leadership 9 instead.

That'd be an Unmodified Leadership 10 Janthkin.

And the wonderful wording on it all is "May use" so you can break when you want to.

IG in 5th looks like its going to be amazing, the ability to throw out more speedbump units than any army can reliably deal with in a 6 turn game, while having tanks, is probably going to help them out just a tad.

Being a Tallarn player, one thing I noticed is that light infantry has the potential to be really good in this edition. You can ensure that most of your army will get to always deploy second regardless of die roll, mighty handy for the static portions of your army. Getting move through cover is helpful as well. The whole "My whole army sneaks in from the sides" aspect is amusing, but I haven't really evaluated that fully.

Yep, I think the flank maneuver is going to make sentinels that much more useful.

I think the biggest change is going to be the end of consolidating into a new assault. This allows IG to play entirely without counterchage units if they want, because they can reliably shoot with close range units. Any unit that can spam special weapons is going to be amazingly good, and I think the four flamer command squad is going to enjoy a renaissance. deploy them right behind a close ranked squad, the squad gets assaulted, and then there are four flamers at extreme close range.

With the new deep strike rules, I think that Hardened vets will be seen more as linebackers than as suicide drops.

I don't see any reason to take chimeras, to be honest. They were marginally good in 4th, and losing all ability to scoot and shoot makes them bunkers, and the 85 points can now buy a screenable Fire Support squad. With the rise of ork hordes multishot weapons are going to be increasingly valuable.

Sentinels, on the other hand, will be annoyingly durable when spammed. The lascannon varient seems like the most useful, but I'll try them all out and see what hits.

Three tanks now seem mandatory. IMO, all infantry guard was a fun and decent list in 4th (that admittedly struggled with objectives). In 5th, the sick durability of the LRBT makes it a no brainer, even with no other tanks to support it. The demolisher is also nice, but I think we'll see fewer terminators, making it's big advantage less usefull. With the fire lanes and scatter, I'm not sure if Basilisks are really worth it anymore.

What do you guys think about Hellhounds in 5th? Sitting back and using that template at range could be a godsend vs. hordes of troops like Orks/Nids. I figure it'd be very useful to take out units of Genestealers who are using gaunts up front for screening/cover.

Also on the Sentinels, they scout right? So you can take a bunch of units (to mitigate the issue of not coming on the side you want 1/3 of the time) all armed with Multi-Meltas for your anti-tank, and it might actually be really good.

I'm thinking that multilaser with HK missile on the sentinels is going to be my preferred loadout. Gives some additional anti-horde firepower while including a slight chance at anti-armor work. And the ability to have them deep strike or come in on the flank (altho I think you have to declare it when you place them in Reserves?) is going to make them that much more dangerous as they will likely be able to get side or even rear armor firing arcs.
I haven't really decided on Chimeras yet. The lack of firepower while moving degrades there usefulness, but they might make decent pillboxes. Haven't decided whether I'm going to use them or not.
Hellhounds are a good unit now and will remain a good unit in 5th. What's not to like? A 24" ST6 flamer that you'll be able to park in cover. Definitely increases it's surviveability. But as with any tank force, gotta take them in numbers to make it count.
I generally play an all-infantry/sentinel force, gunline with a few drop troop elements. I think it will still be quite viable. The Fire Support squads (with infiltrate) should still work fairly well. In fact, heavy bolters/autocannons might be preferable overall to missile launchers/lascannons for anti MEQ work. With the prevalence of cover saves now, it's going to be quantity of wounds that counts moreso than quality (ie AP) of wounds. Gonna take some playtesting to see.

"Cameleoline, +1 to cover saves"

Gaurd with a Marine save? Heresy indeed! The inquisition will have to look into this!

I've always liked Hellhounds... now I'm like an over-eager poodle about them: yappy, jumping, and looking for someone's leg.

I'm conceivably looking at starting a Guard army. The one thing I know I want is Carapace Armor. I don't care for the normal Cadians, but throw on the extra armor and mask like you see on the Kasrakins and they're solid gold.

If I'm taking Carapace Armor standard, do I want to take Grenadiers as well, or would they not be worth it for filling my Troops slots?

I figure I'll take Iron Discipline as well as that sounds like a sure winner.

Would taking Camoline on as well just be making my squads too expensive?

Any other good pearls of wisdom? Remember, Carapace Armor is mandatory.

Pearls of wisdom: don't take carapace.

Does it look cool? Yes.

Does it make any sense to improve a Guard's save? No. Not for what you have to pay for it. IG durability is achieved through more bodies not better saves. And 5E doesn't make that any better.

It actually makes it worse, since you will have alot of 4+ cover saves to use instead of your armoursave.

Between the buff Hellhounds and Sentinels will get in 5th, who'd have thought IG players would have trouble deciding how to fill out their FA slots?

I don't see many buffs for the Sentinel - AV 10, open-topped still dies very easily, and squadron rules make it so that 1/3 of glancing hits will still kill it.

Hellhounds, however, are dead 'ard. Projectile flamer templates are the new hotness.

My plan (if i do do guard) is a pair of Hellhounds, possibly a third, for my Fast Attack, and a unit of Sentinels with my Command Platoon with Auto Cannons coming in on the flank to gank infantry/tanks hiding in their back lines.

Let us not forget about the light infantry doctrine, can anyone say 55 guardsmen showing up from a table edge within rapid fire range?

"Cameleoline, +1 to cover saves"

Gaurd with a Marine save? Heresy indeed! The inquisition will have to look into this!

Yep. They're called "Sisters of Battle"

Let us not forget about the light infantry doctrine, can anyone say 55 guardsmen showing up from a table edge within rapid fire range?

Rapid Fire range = Assault range. And with the sheer lethality that is the Lasgun, you're not likely to inflict enough damage to make it count.

The strength of Light Infantry will be where it has always been - in allowing that unit to deploy last, no matter what. Either deploy last because you lost the roll-off, or deploy last even though you won the roll-off and then get first turn, guaranteed.

Red_Lives wrote:Let us not forget about the light infantry doctrine, can anyone say 55 guardsmen showing up from a table edge within rapid fire range?

And causing... minimal-to-pathetic damage? Lasguns are still Lasguns Red - 5th won't make them better.

Besides, the Doctrines aren't going to be around much longer...

BYE

Assault range? so what at worst they assault you and you lose 10 guardsmen to 1 squad right? and since the guardsmen will be slaughtered and you can't consolidate into new assaults just point those lazguns and flamers lets not forget flamers at the enemy again and repeat.

Ratbarf wrote:"Cameleoline, +1 to cover saves"

Gaurd with a Marine save? Heresy indeed! The inquisition will have to look into this!

That is stupid, it would make them unmoveable............
WAAAAAAGH!!!!!

Well, you really shouldn't be moving your squads much anyway - kinda makes your LC ineffective.