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come on... your saying a tank cant move along, fire its big gun... and all the other crew in the tank just look down the sights of the heavy bolter and say "man... i wish i could pull this trigger"

or better yet... how about the tau tanks that go bent over the table and raped.... your now paying 180 points (give or take a few) for a decent pie-plate, or a great AT weapon... but now your drone controled SMS or burst cannons cant fire because they are S5.... and actualy... now that i think about it... if you take burst cannons, only ONE of them can fire as they are 2 seprate guns.....

this dosent really affect the overpriced devil fish as it has just a burst cannon. and its drones are passangers.... but they are 100 points just to make them not die by being looked at the wrong way..... and now the actualy cool aspect of giving them SMS is flushed down the tubes... the only good thing they got going for them now is that they can carry anybody (i think thats what is going aroudn now at least. anyone know if a pathfinder fish will be able to do thi as well??)

the only way that can get around this is to make the heavy bolter S4, tau SMS and burst cannons S4, and alllllllll other secondary tank weapons S4.... then dramaticaly lessen the price of all of them.... and to compensate for the new craptastic tank rules, lessen the price of all tanks in the game.


as a tau player.... i wounder how i am going to spend the extra 360 points i just got because my hammerheads now suck..... well, i might keep one around to throw out a 180 point pie plate, then get blown up and remind me how slowed the rule is.

I don't see how this relates to news&rumors. I believe there are several S5 Defensive weapons threads in YMDC, Discussions, etc. It would probably be more conducive to your rant to join in on one of them and add your .02 cents.

i was hoping that this was still a roumer... but after reading lots of the other posts and clicking aorudn the web it seams its true.

It is true. I don't know how many non-Tau tanks have S4 or lower secondary weapons.

On the otherhand the 10pt bit of gear that allows the Tau to fire as fast vehicles overcomes that problem. Issue for the Tau resolved. Everyone else still cursing.

Envy89 wrote:15 ellipses, 11 misspellings, and no capitalization

The misspellings I can live with. The lack of capitalization I can somehow stomach. But no matter how hard you try, the ellipsis will never be end punctuation.

o wait no... =P it wasent 11 of ... those things. you said 15... i counted 17... man... how will i ever fit 18 in...

bigchris1313 wrote:

Envy89 wrote:15 ellipses, 11 misspellings, and no capitalization

The misspellings I can live with. The lack of capitalization I can somehow stomach. But no matter how hard you try, the ellipsis will never be end punctuation.

teehee

seriously dude, lighten up - GW is a family game after all :-p

Get back on topic guys.

Also moved to tactics as actually looking for ways to get around/ use the rule...

Plastic Parody wrote:On the otherhand the 10pt bit of gear that allows the Tau to fire as fast vehicles overcomes that problem. Issue for the Tau resolved. Everyone else still cursing.

ok. so now i can move up to 12 inches. fire my rail gun and NOT my SMS or vice versa. and NOT get the skimmer bonus on the pen table because i dident move over 12 inches.

or i can move 6 inches and fire all weapons (what will most likely happen). the hammerhead is now a slow moving and easy to destroy (yes AV 13 on front, but with only having 6 inches of movement easy to get a side shot on AV 12)

i may be mistaken on the rules. if i am please tell me.

and yes i know about the 5 point disruption pod (that will now be on every single tau tank) that makes it so over 12 inches is obscured. it is worth its weight in gold for the 5 points. but still "hay look at me, on a 4+ i can give you a minus 2 on the dammage table"

if tau had a S4 gun that they had the option to take in place of the BC's or the SMS's it wouldent be as bad.
twin linked drone controlled kroot rifles lol

I may be wrong about this, but I believe obscured targets now get a true saving throw. So those 5 points will now give you a 4+ chance to ignore enemy fire. I think that's worth losing 'skimmers moving fast' for, don't you?

There's not much more to say. Many players were not happy with the S4 defensive weapons. GW appears to have made changes to make tanks more durable, but I suppose the tradeoff was to fire less while on the move.

Envy89 wrote:No ellipses

Thank you!

This doesn't really hurt Tau tanks at all realy. Yes it makes them slower but it also allows them to be more durable and still put out more firepower than anyother tank in the game that can move 6 inch and fire everything.

I think this will force tank users to be more strategic about where they start their tanks. It will probably force people to decide whether to stick tanks more in the open and gamble on their added survivability OR.... put them in cover and potentially have them not affect the battle for 2-3 turns. SO no more zipping around and blasting things with the big guns that is the biker's job now.

Finding a monkey that can write may also be a little tough to write this better rule you are speaking of.

Ratbarf wrote:Finding a monkey that can write may also be a little tough to write this better rule you are speaking of.

lol just give it a pen and whatever is scribbles will be a better rule.

i am not sure on the status of the LOS issue.

if forests, buildings and the like can still block LOS. then this is something that i will love because now i can hide for a bit, then pop out and blast stuff, use trees to block LOS and get a 4+ cover save for my tank.

but if anything can be shot at from anyware. then def weps need to be S5 and down. because a 4+ save only goes so far when you have every single lascannon in an IG army firing at 2 hammerheads. and 12 inch movement really helps when trying to get away.

but if anything can be shot at from anyware. then def weps need to be S5 and down.

Then we'd get an illiterate, belligerent eldar player whining about how only eldar got screwed by the new S5 defensive weapon rule. GW used S4 or S6 for defensive weapons for a reason.

Also I can't understand why a Tau player would whine so vehemently. Tau tanks get a pretty good boost in the rules compared to other tanks.

-A 5 point upgrade that gives Tau tanks the 4+ cover save, anytime, anywhere. That is huge, especially if you play in an area lacking true LOS blokcing terrain. You don't have to go 12" or more to get the skimmer moving fast benefit, as every other skimmer will have to do.

-Tau can also move 6" and shoot all weapons with a multi-tracker. My predators are envious.

-Tau also have an upgrade that helps them with difficult terrain tests. Since skimmers can't hover over terrain anymore this is also huge.

Seriously, rethink these changes in relation to other armies tanks gains and losses. It isn't like only Tau tanks lost mobility-- all tanks did and probably more so.

-A 5 point upgrade that gives Tau tanks the 4+ cover save, anytime, anywhere. That is huge, especially if you play in an area lacking true LOS blokcing terrain. You don't have to go 12" or more to get the skimmer moving fast benefit, as every other skimmer will have to do.

Anywhere and everywhere that is at least 12" away from the guys with the big guns. Still incredibly good.

As a former tanker, I've long considered 40K's rules for vehicles and fire/movement to be some sort of slap in the mouth dictated by a WWII historian living in the deep, deep past where shock + firepower + maneuver hadn't been realized yet, and this defensive weapon nerf is no exception. My solution for my poor IG Armored Cav Regiment is to simply field Bassies with Indirect and heavy weapons platoons, because there's no sense whatsover in spending points on a pillbox with a turret. Chaos will get Land Raiders if I feel the need for a vehicle, and the Oblits and Havocs will pick up the slack; the Preds are getting deadlined until this madness ends. The Nova Devils will be doing Whirlwinds and Fast Attack vehicles, maybe a Land Raider.

A pity, really.

Yeah, I actually like the impact this has on Tau. It makes the Hammerhead a bit more like I envision it fluffwise, sorta cruising along, laying out firepower. Not darting around like a crack addled dragonfly.

I've long considered 40K's rules for vehicles and fire/movement to be some sort of slap in the mouth dictated by a WWII historian living in the deep, deep past where shock + firepower + maneuver hadn't been realized yet

I think it fits into the fluff, tho. I've always viewed 40K as a sort of feudal era with barely understood machines that make laser guns. They make a laser gun, they make a tank, but they're not integrated like in an Abrams, they're just bolted on and shot manually.

why not just fire all guns, and if you move it is -1 BS. I mean they must be able to technically aim and fire their guns at something.

I think they are trying to make you choose. Do you want to move your tank, or fire your guns. Either that or they are just going to flip/flop the rules every even or odd edition number.

"Now infilitrate is going to do this again!"

"-Tau also have an upgrade that helps them with difficult terrain tests."

Actually for 10 points we ignore dangerous terrain. So we dont' even have to take the darn test! Take that you cheese falconers ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Tacobake wrote:why not just fire all guns, and if you move it is -1 BS. I mean they must be able to technically aim and fire their guns at something.

We actually took it a step further: we play-tested a house rule in Iraq that allowed vehicles to move 6" and fire all weapons, each weapon at separate targets if you so chose and if the firing arcs were available, or move 12" and fire anything except Ordnance, also at multiple units dependant on firing arc. This went for Skimmers and Walkers as well. You would not believe how much more dynamic a game it became when vehicles were actually something to be afraid of if you were infantry, as opposed to what they are in 40K, which is high-profile target practice. The choice for how to utilise the freedom of weapons fell on the vehicle's player, where you could conceivably target three or four different units with a weapon apiece and maybe snip at them, or devote maximum firepower to a single enemy and maybe wipe them out. For our games, we still field vehicles like this, because it makes vehicles worth their points and just as dangerous as they ought to be. We also discovered that between infantry-wielded heavy weapons and your own vehicles, it's not even a matter of imbalance, because the life expectancy of a vehicle was only improved upon by an average of one turn per game.

The defensive weapon nerf is a step in the wrong direction, IMO.

I dunno. Maybe S4 defensive isn't so bad. Maybe this edition is the Reign of Storm Bolters, Combi-Bolters, Shuriken Catapults and Heavy Stubbers.

BYE

so in this new addition of rules. my tanks went from being good, manurivable, zip around tanks that can lay out some kick fire power all for 180 points (both worth it and needed)
to poor, slow, cumbersom fire magnants. at around 200 points. (not worth it, but still needed)

the tau and eldar tanks are at least in the fluff. quick, manurivable, zip around tanks. because they know how the machines work insted of praying to them hoping the tank will fix itself.


as i said before. to me, this really boils down to the LOS issue. i have heard it said that there is no more LOS blocking terrein. which is just slowed "ummm Sir, why can we see thier entire army through the city and a forest???"
if there really is no more LOS blockes, then i think i will go to playing 9 broadsides with 18 shield drones. 40 fire warriors with shas ui's and marker lights 40 kroot, and mabey some pathfinders, o and that ethereal to keep them all around longer. combine those markerlights together and take away saving throws. because hay, its not like you will get a save form a markerlight as it dosent (directly at leats =P) cause a wound.

i have heard it said that there is no more LOS blocking terrein.

Then you heard wrong.

Area terrain no longer blocks LOS. If your area was lazy and did not make the majority of their terrain WYSWIG (which on pg 17 of the current ruleset, it is stated should be the majority), then yeah you will have trouble hiding the hammerhead behind two trees on some felt. However, if you get to making some cool terrain, like large rock formations, hills and buildings (not ruins, actual buildings that have rules similar to vehicles) then you'll have some terrain on hand that you can hide your stuff behind.

so in this new addition of rules. my tanks went from being good, manurivable, zip around tanks that can lay out some kick fire power all for 180 points (both worth it and needed)
to poor, slow, cumbersom fire magnants. at around 200 points. (not worth it, but still needed)

Man that is pretty sad. For one the price doesn't have to go up that much. For two, you still have the same firepower when moving 6" or less. Is that loss of 6 inches of movement seriously that big a deal? Yes it is a nerf but is that really the last straw? IMO at least you can adjust your firing lane and still shoot everything, non-fast cannot do that at all.

I think the S4 choice was a reasonable one. They could have left it at 6, but no other choice would have worked due to how it would affect different armies. S5 would have given imperials a huge bump and hosed eldar. S7 would have been silly as would S3. So in the end, they chose to seriously limit everyone rather than no one.

why not just fire all guns, and if you move it is -1 BS.

I dunno, too simple? You're right, though, there really should be a simple way to balance this that doesn't feel as contrived.

We actually took it a step further: we play-tested a house rule in Iraq ...

Uhhh, seriously? Earlier I saw a guy saying he was posting from Iraq. I thought reading a miniature game forum from a war zone was pretty cool. Now I'm hearing that you actually played 40K in a war zone?

Did you hear that terrorists?

We win.

to poor, slow, cumbersom fire magnants. at around 200 points.

Except not. They're significantly tougher now, they get a 4+ save. Yes, if they fail that, they'll get hurt a bit more, but they just IGNORE 50% of all hits.

You'd have to really nerf the crap out of a tank to make it worse, when it's also twice as tough.

You're still fairly mobile, can still shoot all the guns, plus now twice as tough (not exactly, but pretty close, maybe more like 33% tougher).

New damage table esp with the glancing "nerf" and the cover save really makes tanks hard, something else had to give.

Ofc this is also the GW reaction to the mass falcon lists that was rockin around before.